Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...I've done a bit of experimenting with carbs, like having a tiny sweet potato, but my head just gets all cloudy and it's hard to concentrate after that. I also experimented with sauerkraut, but I didn't notice any improvement whatsoever in the long term. It seems that the best thing that works for me is what you wrote: lonely piece of meat with liquid fat floating around. I do wonder though what green leaf you eat? I wish I could have something vegginess that is yummy too and doesn't cause inflammation, just to have some kind of variation.

I don't know about the protein aspect of it, but what you describe here can be caused by something like Small Intestine Bacterial Overgrowth (SIBO), although symptoms alone are not enough to tell. I don't know yet what to do about SIBO, but at least that's something for you to search for. Carbs can feed critters, and the Specific Carbohydrate Diet might or might not help, but it can give you a starting point for determining which carbs are OK for you and which are not.

You don't actually need to buy the book, though it contains useful background information. The website contains the list of "legal" and "illegal" carb sources. If you do have a microbial overgrowth problem, it may be necessary to eliminate every last item from the "illegal" list before seeing improvement; hence the legalistic terminology. (And sometimes that isn't enough!) But if your symptoms are mild (as opposed to acute inflammatory bowel disease, which is not mild) then it's not as critical and it may not even help. For me, a combination of SCD, digestive enzymes, and betaine HCL has helped my brain (and head) but not, so far, my gut. But you are having some "head symptoms."

Whatever it is, these kinds of symptoms (as usual) tend to point to "heal the gut. I am, after two years, absolutely sick of lonely pieces of meat sitting in liquid fat. It still tastes good -- it's not that -- but I want to feel better, and not have to be so extremely restrictive. SIBO is one possible cause, but there are others that I do not yet understand. Chris Kresser keeps talking about biofilms that can coat the inside of your GI tract and keep it from working right, and about botanicals that he uses for treatment. But I'm still perhaps a year out on his wait list, which is not open to more people at this time. So I work with the materials at scdlifestyle.com, and I may start consulting with them as well for help with lab testing to try to identify pathogens or other possible causes. Otherwise, what do you do?

 

[Oxajil]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I don't know about the protein aspect of it, but what you describe here can be caused by something like Small Intestine Bacterial Overgrowth (SIBO), although symptoms alone are not enough to tell. I don't know yet what to do about SIBO, but at least that's something for you to search for. Carbs can feed critters, and the Specific Carbohydrate Diet might or might not help, but it can give you a starting point for determining which carbs are OK for you and which are not.

You don't actually need to buy the book, though it contains useful background information. The website contains the list of "legal" and "illegal" carb sources. If you do have a microbial overgrowth problem, it may be necessary to eliminate every last item from the "illegal" list before seeing improvement; hence the legalistic terminology. (And sometimes that isn't enough!) But if your symptoms are mild (as opposed to acute inflammatory bowel disease, which is not mild) then it's not as critical and it may not even help. For me, a combination of SCD, digestive enzymes, and betaine HCL has helped my brain (and head) but not, so far, my gut. But you are having some "head symptoms."

Whatever it is, these kinds of symptoms (as usual) tend to point to "heal the gut. I am, after two years, absolutely sick of lonely pieces of meat sitting in liquid fat. It still tastes good -- it's not that -- but I want to feel better, and not have to be so extremely restrictive. SIBO is one possible cause, but there are others that I do not yet understand. Chris Kresser keeps talking about biofilms that can coat the inside of your GI tract and keep it from working right, and about botanicals that he uses for treatment. But I'm still perhaps a year out on his wait list, which is not open to more people at this time. So I work with the materials at scdlifestyle.com, and I may start consulting with them as well for help with lab testing to try to identify pathogens or other possible causes. Otherwise, what do you do?

Thanks a lot Megan! I'll take a look at that website. In the past I've done some rounds of getting those critters out of my gut and have taken some gut supplements for healing. At that point in time it seemed to help a lot, and I lost weight too. After doing that and feeling fine, and having not eaten any carbs anymore, and stayed away from dairy and gluten as well, I thought there wouldn't be a chance for certain bacteria to grow and cause some disturbance. But maybe I have a gut problem, I don't know. I do know that since my dietary changes I have become very sensitive to things. So far, only meat (if not too much) and animal fats (no butter) don't give a reaction but actually are energizing. I'll look into this further and see if I should take any extra supplements, and if I could do some more testing on some veggies that don't cause a reaction. Thanks again.

Hope that the lab tests will be of help! Otherwise I've been thinking that maybe the cheese could contribute to some of the issues? I'm not sure though, as dietary issues can be quite complex.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The tricky thing about a meat-only diet, and the reason why I have reintroduced indigestible carbs in my diet in spite of the risk of introducing more problems at the same time, is that cutting out carbs limits the food supply to the symbiotic bacteria in your gut. It might be OK for Eskimos living on ice, but my "gut sense" is that I NEED those bacteria working for me (and feeling good themselves) in the world in which I live which is teaming with microorganisms of all persuasions. They know more about that world than my own body cells do, being able to pass in and out of it, and able to exchange DNA plasmids with it, and I think that's why we have these humungous colonies of them.

If your gut is healthy to begin with (and I don't remember a time when mine ever was), the needs of your gut bacteria might be different. There are other things symbiotic bacteria can live on besides carbs. But I feel like I need to feed mine especially well, after all they have been through with devastating medical "treatments" going back to the threshold of my early memories, and given the emotional wrecks that my parents were when I was conceived and born, and the lack of breastfeeding. There are a number of "prebiotic" foods that I haven't even tried yet, so there's always more to do.

 

[Oxajil]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The tricky thing about a meat-only diet, and the reason why I have reintroduced indigestible carbs in my diet in spite of the risk of introducing more problems at the same time, is that cutting out carbs limits the food supply to the symbiotic bacteria in your gut. It might be OK for Eskimos living on ice, but my "gut sense" is that I NEED those bacteria working for me (and feeling good themselves) in the world in which I live which is teaming with microorganisms of all persuasions. They know more about that world than my own body cells do, being able to pass in and out of it, and able to exchange DNA plasmids with it, and I think that's why we have these humungous colonies of them.

If your gut is healthy to begin with (and I don't remember a time when mine ever was), the needs of your gut bacteria might be different. There are other things symbiotic bacteria can live on besides carbs. But I feel like I need to feed mine especially well, after all they have been through with devastating medical "treatments" going back to the threshold of my early memories, and given the emotional wrecks that my parents were when I was conceived and born, and the lack of breastfeeding. There are a number of "prebiotic" foods that I haven't even tried yet, so there's always more to do.

I'm sorry to hear that Megan, thanks for sharing. I guess we all have our differences in what works and what works not. Hope things will continue to heal for you!

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I'm upping my tablespoons of lard per day to 10-12, from something like 4-5 previously. Based on a 1800 calorie intake I should be at 180g fat, with protein at 48g, carbs 0.

Unless I've fallen behind, 48g per day is either too little or just on the edge. I think there is some uncertainty about that. Is it possible that some people can't lower protein enough to boost ketosis without losing lean tissue?

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I'm upping my tablespoons of lard per day to 10-12, from something like 4-5 previously. Based on a 1800 calorie intake I should be at 180g fat, with protein at 48g, carbs 0.

Unless I've fallen behind, 48g per day is either too little or just on the edge. I think there is some uncertainty about that. Is it possible that some people can't lower protein enough to boost ketosis without losing lean tissue?

1620 (180x9) kcal from fat out of 1800 (90%) is low? I don't know -- I sometimes get things mixed up when going between grams and calories -- but it sounds like more than enough to do the job to me.

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I said protein, not fat.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I said protein, not fat.

Did you say that? Told you I get mixed up. Sorry. Back to work for me...

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

do wonder though what green leaf you eat? I wish I could have something vegginess that is yummy too and doesn't cause inflammation, just to have some kind of variation.

Oxajil,

I am ok with kale, cruciferous (broccoli, broccolini, cauliflower), the occasional green salad, occasionally a bit of spinach. I also eat a bit of sauerkraut, which gets my innards going, and avocado. And occasionally mushrooms.

And that's pretty much it - give these a go and see what happens.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

do wonder though what green leaf you eat? I wish I could have something vegginess that is yummy too and doesn't cause inflammation, just to have some kind of variation.

Oxajil,

I am ok with kale, cruciferous (broccoli, broccolini, cauliflower), the occasional green salad, occasionally a bit of spinach. I also eat a bit of sauerkraut, which gets my innards going, and avocado. And occasionally mushrooms.

And that's pretty much it - give these a go and see what happens.

Some people need to cook or steam kale and certain other greens (can't remember which), to avoid reactions. If in doubt, cook or steam them at first and then try raw. Nutritionally, there are benefits either way but if you always cook your veggies then you never benefit from earthborn bacteria, or from nutrients that cook out, though cooking covered at low heat and being sure to preserve and consume the liquid can help.

When eating raw veggies, especially, small amounts may prove OK while eating large amounts may not. If you have poop problems and you eat a lot of veggies, raw or cooked, you may have trouble with gas from excess fermentation of all that fiber. Or you may not.

 

[beetlemaniac]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

My sense is (and has been) that a major factor in how high ketone levels go is the presence or absence of major metabolic disfunction. Doctors administering therapeutic KD are treating seriously ill patients, and researchers and even do-it-yourself experimenters (e.g. Jimmy Moore) are often interested in treating or reversing disease. If that is the case, some people may hit a hard wall in terms of maximum levels. That doesn't mean that they aren't in ketosis or that KD will not be beneficial for them.

I don't doubt your sense on that. I think the whole process of ketoadaptation -- not to mention the gradual withdrawal from carbohydrates -- is basically coaxing the body to recover from it's own metabolic dysfunction. Sleep, stress, emotional issues, could play a major role as well in realigning the systems. I know that you are having a tough time with your own metabolism and digestion, and I wish it wasn't so.

I have the full text of the papers referenced in the above paper to support the 3.6 mmol/L claim and I will try to take a closer look sometime soon. I am quite curious to see where they came up with that number.

Thanks for the cautionary advice, Megan. I have probably stayed well within reasonable limits (of fat intake, I still need to see how I am to balance sufficient protein intake) for myself at least. The paper stated that CNS utilisation of ketones starts at 4 mmol/L not 3.6. I am also very interested in how they got that figure. The references are not free though, and I'm not sure if I'll be able to understand them. But I'm assuming that ketosis below that level only provides energy for muscles and other non-brain stuff, thus the brain is still thriving on glucose from various sources.

That figure impressed me mainly because I had a confirmation on my part, as I measured at slightly above 4 mmol/L last night which coincided with perceptibly better brain function, although it could have been just a correlative fluke. Maybe participating in the forum is what's making my brain work! Sometimes things seem to happen together and it's hard to tease out what caused what. Before that measurement I had increased my fat intake substantially just in the midday and for dinner (while reducing protein). Today, I am having mild stomach pains again as I try to consume more fat.

Unless I've fallen behind, 48g per day is either too little or just on the edge. I think there is some uncertainty about that. Is it possible that some people can't lower protein enough to boost ketosis without losing lean tissue?

That's my concern as well, monotonic. I've had times before, when I was pushing for ketosis where I would eat increasingly smaller amounts of protein because I'd never feel hungry. I will be monitoring my protein intake a little better this time around. The 48g figure comes from PBPM where we get the 0.8g/kg of bodyweight recommendation, which was recommended for longevity through downregulation of the mTOR pathway. I weigh around 60 kg. To be honest, I don't think I'll be able to get to 0g carbs anyway. I'm thinking of including some veggies just so I don't get bored. Had some green beans today.

 

[happyliza]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Thanks Megan for your timely advice. It seems I am nowhere near enough fat intake. I know I have myriad gut problems including low hydrochloric acid, leaky gut and poor nutrition assimilation. Probably what made me anemic and low red blood count in the first place which took me back to the UK last March. Anyway I think Laura was spot on regarding zinc deficiency too. I was re-reading LWB and PBPM this week and it described such symptoms to a T.

Well now it seems I have gone from bad to worse, even though I am by no means fully doing the Paleo 100% but getting there - lack of ability to eat fat or meat is the culprit (again, normal reactions according to my symptoms). Also I have the problem of not being able to eat until afternoon and can only manage coffee and water until then. Finding ways I can eat fat is problematical and I have been experimenting trying to find stuff that will absorb it as it just makes my stomach turn over at the thought of it - yet I always loved fat - but not in such quantities and on the meat!

I now have a teribble infection or reaction in my stomach. I dont know if it was having been tempted in the heat by some icecream or ice cubes that were not from a good water source, or just the transition to forcing more fat. Either way I am not in a good way and after three days it is scaring me a bit. It started with vertigo (which funnily my bf fainted in his restaurant yesterday too, though I have been hot on hygiene and no contact to ensure he doesnt get this especially as a chef) but immediately after I got pure liquid diarrohia. I had just started taking Beiteine tabs. Well since I have not been able to leave my sofa, with the most awful nausea, dizziness and cramps in my stomach. I cannot do anything other than get food or feed the animals as zero energy.

The frightening bit is not knowing the cause - though I do suspect nutrition based. Doctors are no good other than to have a stool test.

Worse still is the sudden weight loss. On the 20th July I weighed 60 kilos 9.4 stone which is as low as I should ever go and doesn't become me. Anyhow yesterday I was 56 kilos 8stone 11. Never have i been so underweight even in my teens so wonder if I will have the strength to fight this. I cooked a farmers breakfast which includes reheating potato, with bacon, onions tons of sheep fat and butter so that all fat was absorbed so I could eat it. I know potato has starch and sugar but felt I needed to put something bulky in me to 'digest'. I have been taking piles of probiotic tablets, vit b vit c, calcium, magnesium and zinc, as well as drinking tons of water so not to dehydrate. Plus I finished my last bonebroth yesterday and included plenty of raw crushed garlic and one whole teaspoon of tumeric in it to help the bloated tummy and inflammation. It could well be a parasitic overwhelm too, I don't count it out as have always suspected such. Either way it came on so suddenly. I also don't discount food poisoning in this heat (40 degrees). But feel itis bacterial.

Toilet visits are getting a bit less now but nothing else has changed and lethargy unrelenting.

I know I still have lots to learn and experiment on this and that we are all different. I am trying to put some tempting quick recipes together as well as ways to eat the fat that my body totally retches at so a long way to go.

I really need some advice on way forward on this please before another drip is put into me! Also any mirrors greatly appreciated. My aim is to keep some carbs so as not too much of a shock to the system and to help me transition while Ido my best to source good food. I am trying to find farmers who can rear healthy animals to buy direct but pork is another matter here, we have a port shop but i need to visit the farm as not convinced how they are fed etc. I can just about drink coconut oil if i melt it out of the fridge first, but not organic here.
Thanks for reading. :O

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Happyliza, it sounds like you are doing too much, making too many changes, expecting a damaged system to respond too fast. Why don't you just back up and regroup? Eat bacon for breakfast - crispy, not too fatty. Or a nice sausage. Eating in the morning is crucial for straightening out the adrenals.

Ditch the coffee. It is just keeping the adrenals stressed.

The rest of the time, eat not-too-fatty veal and a bit of instant mashed potatoes. We've found that the instant variety are very soothing to the digestion without all the anti-nutrients of nightshades. You can have 3/4 cup of the instant potatoes with every meal until things settle down.

Stop with all the supplements and stuff for the moment except for a very select few. Do find which digestive supplement helps you most. Just stabilize and then begin again very, very slowly.

 

[beetlemaniac]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Happyliza, it sounds like you are doing too much, making too many changes, expecting a damaged system to respond too fast. Why don't you just back up and regroup? Eat bacon for breakfast - crispy, not too fatty. Or a nice sausage. Eating in the morning is crucial for straightening out the adrenals.

Ditch the coffee. It is just keeping the adrenals stressed.

The rest of the time, eat not-too-fatty veal and a bit of instant mashed potatoes. We've found that the instant variety are very soothing to the digestion without all the anti-nutrients of nightshades. You can have 3/4 cup of the instant potatoes with every meal until things settle down.

Stop with all the supplements and stuff for the moment except for a very select few. Do find which digestive supplement helps you most. Just stabilize and then begin again very, very slowly.

You could also start your day with a hot cup of broth instead of the coffee, if you like.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

happyliza,

You might want to swap the coffee for tea ... Pu'erh works great for me (with other green or black teas in the morning I vomit ...).

Have you ever done an elimination trial - maybe that would be a first start, once your system has rebalanced a bit - just bacon, instant mashed potatoes and some green leafy vegetables (or cruciferous veggies) for a while and then reintroduce slowly one food after another every three days to see what works and what not.

I think to go cold-turkey into ketosis only works if your body is not too damaged. So I can wholeheartedly support Laura's advice - take it slowly and only change one thing at the time. As to supplements I would consider only taking magnesium (preferably the maleate variety) and see how you go.

Probiotic tablets are pretty much worthless if they are not "enteric coated" - they dissolve in the stomach and never make it "further south". If you have intractable diarrhoea and you want to rebuild your intestinal flora one new concept that has arisen is "fecal transplant" - I know that sounds very yucky, but the benefits might be very far reaching.

Here are some links:
_http://www.huffingtonpost.com/colleen-r-kelly-md/fecal-transplant-progress_b_3569342.html
_http://www.voanews.com/content/fecal-transplants-used-to-cure-intestinal-disorders/1723974.html

I hope you will be better soon!