Lifetime archival CD

Ellipse

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Verbatim provide an interesting media to store data : 100GB BDXL

Verbatim BDXL

Industry standard ISO/IEC 10995 tests carried out by Millenniata showed the expected mean lifetime of an MDISC to be 1,332 years, with just 5% of discs showing signs of data loss after 667 years. Therefore the projected lifetime is expected to be several hundreds of years.

BDXL 100GB capacity makes archiving essential data easier for home users as well as business & enterprises users.

MDISC BDXL discs incorporate titanium for added longevity. Combined with the MDISC patented “rock-like” recording layer this provides ultimate protection for you precious memories & data.

The drawback are the price: around 90€ the pack of 5, the need of a burner able to handle it (I had to change mine) and the time needed to burn 100GB. But a least its something that exist. Be sure to choose the product stamped "Lifetime archival" because there's a similar product half the price but we a standard quality.
 
Just what is a ‘Lifetime’ …

All accelerated testing is performed in an environmental chamber that can float the temperature +50°C, -30°C multiple times an hour where one day of chamber time is estimated to be a period of time. There can be a moisture element involved.

This is where the grey area is, as some say 1 day = 1 week, another says 1 day = 1 month, and still another says that 1 day = 3 months and so on. I even found one location that stated that 1 day = 6 years, I don’t know where they came up with that one. All testing is done in almost cleanroom environments which in no way can you replicate in a home environment, so this statement of 1332 years is pretty much a farce. Because of environmental conditions I do not expect any CD/DVD to last longer than 10 years. (I got dead Blu-ray disks already) My experience is just to use SSD drives as they cost about the same and hold terabytes, they last about 10 years, so far I have only had two SSD failures (quick to fail) out of two-hundred-fifty in use.

I been involved my share of testing like this. We assumed a shorter term for 1 day = 2 weeks. We tested for longer time periods and determined 1000 years for one product, then we cut that to 100 years and sales cut that to 20 years. Actual product lasted less than 10 years with less than 10% failing in the first year. So much for testing and six-sigma. The failures were from handling dust/dirt and fingerprints were the biggest culprit, cleanliness.

Good luck, Haiku …
 
I do not expect any CD/DVD to last longer than 10 years. (I got dead Blu-ray disks already)
That's pretty bad, have you used Mitsubishi/Verbatim BD-R disks or some other kind like BD-RE or different producer? I still have a pirated copy of Baldur's Gate 1 from 1998, written on the cheapest Esperanza disks that are readable without any issues, and a big music archive on DVDs from the time of DC++ and 64 kbit/s ADSL modems that I've recently backed up. I have had positive experiences with optical media. Even Polish legislation recognizes them as valid backup solutions for companies archival purposes.

I've found an analysis of their Verbatim's lifetime claims:
(...) This possibly explains the problem with the lifetime seen above – they managed a mean expected lifetime under 22 degrees C and 50% R.H. of over 1,000 years, but 95% confidence level is only 530 years. This means it is likely that only half the batch of discs makes it to 1,000 years, with 95% of them making it to 530 years. This also implies that the standard deviation is 235 years, meaning a ~ 0.5% population of the discs may lie in the range of <295 years. Of course, this is all statistics and it boils down to the issue of the validity of accelerated life testing.

Advertising your discs to last 1,000 years when only about half will is a bit dishonest.
It seems that regular BD-R disks also have very long lifetimes:
Most interesting is the Verbatim MKM BD-R DL and TL archive life test summary. When using the ISO/IEC 10995 standard for 95% confidence at 25 degrees C, 50% RH, their BD-R DL achieved a lifetime of 554 years and their BD-R TL achieved a lifetime of 3588 years. It seems that regular quality BD-R discs can achieve projected lifetimes to failure of a similar magnitude to that of M-Disc DVDs which achieved 530 years under slightly cooler conditions.

@Ellipse It's funny that you've created a thread like this because a month ago I woke up with the thought that I needed to backup family archives to optical media because my home NAS will be toast (from Earth changes)... It's also interesting that, in the last geomagnetic storm a few months ago, I observed for the first time that ZFS detected (correctable) bit rot on my 4x 3TB HDD matrix. I've been using ZFS for years and haven't seen a scrub run that detected a checksum mismatch (even on non-ECC RAM). Disks were almost brand new, made by different producers, with no S.M.A.R.T. errors that could signal a broken SATA cable.
It could also be wise to create an offline Blu-ray copy of Wikipedia using Kiwix, with Kiwix installers for all the platforms.
 
@KS

Yeah, look like some rough times are ahead so better to anticipate. Perhaps it can be interesting to have a setup of Linux or Windows on CD too. If hard drives are wiped out we have to reinstall again an OS to access... CD backuped content. Presuming we have electricity.

2023-07-29
(thorbiorn) Digitalization makes knowledge formerly written in books more accessible, but also more controllable and volatile, since digital storage mediums are more sensitive to electromagnetic disturbances and digital editing. How important is it for the preservation of knowledge to make efforts to preserve knowledge in books and printed matter?

A: Very!

Q: (L) So it's very important.

(thorbiorn) What is the most reliable way to preserve knowledge?

A: Carved in stone or written on wet clay and then baked.
 
Apparently, it's possible to use 3D printers to "print" stone. It would be faster than doing it by hand.
The Spectrum Stone Age filaments is a series of materials that imitate stone. The base material of the filament is PLA. The stone filament is characterized by excellent coverage of the layers, subduing them effectively. Printed objects show a roughness that is similar to real stone. Spectrum Stone filaments are used, among other things, in the printing of architectural and decorative models.

With Spectrum PLA filament you can print 3D models with:
  • Warping resistance
  • Durability and stability of expression
  • Excellent finished quality
PLA Stone Age Series advantages:
  • Made from biodegradable materials
  • Beautiful stone effect
  • PLA based
  • Highest surface quality
  • Distortion and warping-free printing
  • Easy to print
  • Print without heated bed possible
  • Relatively low melting temperature
1691098120482.png
 
I checked the Laser to engrave stones idea and it really do exist. Perhaps we can contribute to buy one?

The question I don't know to answer today is the speed. Imagine we want to engrave all the sessions. How long it would tak? I guess it's proportional to the power of the laser.

Carpe Diem.jpg

Can a Diode Laser Engrave Stone ?

Yes, a diode laser engraver can also engrave stone. People usually prefer CO2 lasers for this purpose because of their immense power, but a diode laser can also engrave stone, and it is a more cost-effective option.

The commonly available diode lasers have a blue light and an optical power of 5-10W. However, you can also find 20W diode lasers from some companies. With these machines, you can easily engrave stones. But if you need better, faster, and darker engraving, you can go for the 20W laser.

Again, there are no exact settings; you need to do a power-speed test. But usually, a 10W laser machine can easily raster engrave at 30% power and 50mm/s and vector engrave at 60% power and 50mm/s. A 20W diode laser will require less power and can engrave stones at a higher speed.

If you are looking for an affordable option, then a diode could be a perfect choice. You can easily buy a diode laser for $700 to $1,200, depending on the optical power and features.

Another company selling Laser for stones engraving but they do not give public price:

No public price too:

So I checked the prices on Amazon.

3W
: the price is as low 160€

Bakeey engraver.jpg


20W : 1100€

Xtool engraver.jpg

33W : 1400€
ATOMSTACK engraver 33W.jpg

50W : 2100€
60W : 2500€

omTech engraver 50W.jpg

Strangely there's a 90W one priced at 306€

SCULPFUN Graveur laser S9, 90W.jpg
 
I checked the Laser to engrave stones idea and it really do exist. Perhaps we can contribute to buy one?

The question I don't know to answer today is the speed. Imagine we want to engrave all the sessions. How long it would tak? I guess it's proportional to the power of the laser.
Space is an issue. How can we fit all the sessions in a portable, non digital format? Perhaps engraving information on a nano scale solves this problem. We could then read all the information with a magnifying device. The technology already exists and is patented.
NanoEngraving to Last 10,000 Years
NanoRosetta can archive over 81,000 pages of eye readable text or pictures on a one inch nickel disc 10,000 times faster than current focused ion beam technology for a duration of over 10,000 years.

This is a permanent, high density and fast replacement for aging technologies like microfilm which will typically last several hundred years. No longer will there be a need to migrate media once the archives have NanoRosetta’d.

The entire Wikipedia Encyclopedia can be captured on nickel in less than a month. Unlike high density microfilm, eye readable images are recorded on a nickel disc, readable with a microscope and indexed through a mapped matrix.
Nano Engraved to Last 300 Generations
Each medallion or pendant is human-eye readable. Content is laser-etched to one billionth of a meter onto a nickel surface, making your memories virtually disaster-proof. Nickel can withstand temperatures up to 2,651 degrees F.
A Viewer Zoom app comes with each medallion to zoom in on your smartphone, tablet or desktop computer.
NanoRosetta® NanoFiche Archival
Production Process
For the production of nano inscribed nickel wafers or plates, the archival data in the form of pdf format is first submitted and organized sequentially or indexed systematically. After file conversion and other preparation for NanoRosetta processing, the documents or other data are then recorded onto a glass wafer by modulating a laser beam in a spiral or concentric manner using a polar raster direct laser etch. A matrix process in electroforming creates “father” nickel master from the inscribed glass wafer. An intermediate “mother” and final ”son” can then be generated from this nickel “father” master wafer. For mass production, polymer copies can also be provided in lieu of nickel “sons.” We also have the ability to combine digital data (CD or DVD) and analog human readable formats on the same disc,

Why adopt NanoRosetta for permanent archival preservation?

Nickel has a much longer life span than microfilm, up to thousands of years.
Nickel is resistant to high temperatures, water damage, and electromagnetic disruption, eliminating the need for expensive control of temperature and humidity.
No need for future migration of digital data, as long as a microscope (lenses) and light (sun) are available.
High speed recording of analog data, preserving more documents in a much shorter time.
High density, reducing precious storage space.
No more energy cost to store mass amounts of information.
What file formats can I submit?

For analog information, customer documents or files for NanoRosetta archiving should be provided in PDF or TIFF format at the highest resolution possible. The analog files will then be converted and combined into larger files that can then be stitched together by the NanoRosetta process.

For digital information, customer documents or files to be stored should be provided in a DDP (Disc Description Protocol) format either as a CD or DVD format.

Since both the analog and data information compete for the same space on the wafer, there is a trade off on how much of each data can be stored.

What do you need from me?

The customer must provide the archival material and is responsible for organizing the data, including arranging such data according to their own preferred indexing scheme. The customer is also responsible for their own retrieval system. Automated inspection systems for wafers work wonderfully well as well as high resolution digital cameras. Digital imaging technology has been progressing at neck break speed and it is not unimaginable to foresee 100MB Pixel or GigaPixel cameras that can recover all the pages in a single shot in the near future. Our recording technology is just ahead of this curve.

Page Capacity
A small number of pages printable in a large format or a large number of pages printable in nano scale can be etched utilizing the NanoRosetta process. Ten thousand pages or more would not be unusual. A 160 mm nickel wafer can hold up to over 81,000 pages. Since there are always trade offs in reduction to practice, larger fonts and larger texts will reduce the number of pages but will be easier to access and recover with lower resolution optical devices. In some cases, if the pages are large enough, an entire book can be recovered with a single high resolution digital camera image capturing all the pages. The pages can be parsed out by software codes, page by page, to get the entire book back within minutes.

Layout
Since the NanoRosetta process utilizes a round glass wafer to direct laser etch, the layout follows the contour of polar coordinates. To maximize the capacity of a disc, the pages are laid out from any direction left to right, top to down to fill the contour of a disc. Alternatively the pages can be laid out in blocks to correspond to any logical configuration that would facilitate ease of retrieval. For example a block can hold 1,000 pages of a book or annual publication. A group of such blocks can preserve an entire collection.

Speed
We can print 80,000 pages per hour.


Wafer or Plate Size
Standard wafers are provided on either a round 160 mm or 138 mm diameter nickel wafer at 300 microns thickness. Typically, there is a 25 mm diameter blank circle in the center of each nickel wafer and a hole of 15mm diameter is punched for alignment. Though wafer versions can be provided with no center hole, data cannot be inscribed in the central area of the wafer. Data also is not written right to the edge either to allow for some margins of error in the manufacturing process. A practical edge should be from radius 10mm to a maximum of 60mm of nano inscribed data. Specialty shapes can also be provided.

Alternatively 120 mm CD sized plastic discs can be produced. For the plastic CD discs, a larger limitation is imposed for space due to the injection molding process. The center blank area is 36mm and reduces the amount of space that analog data can be printed.

Turn Around Time
Operations time depends upon how the data is presented and the quantity of pages or files submitted by the customer. For the first inscriptions onto the glass premaster approximately 80,000 pages per hour can be written. Making the nickel masters can take several hours to days depending upon how many final wafer copies are required. The most time consuming element in the NanoRosetta process is the preparation, organization, manipulation and rendering of the data prior to the inscription process. Since the NanoRosetta process must render close to a trillion pixels for an archival wafer, the limitation is the computing power. Once the rendered master file has been compiled, the manufacturing process takes much less time.
 
Space is an issue. How can we fit all sessions in a portable, non digital format? Perhaps engraving information on a nano scale solves this problem. We could then read all the information with a magnifying device. The technology already exists and is patented.
Interesting tech indeed! But I don't think one technologie exclude the other. Good to have both because the drawback of engraving in a such small space, I think, is no one ever find the records or note it because it's so small. Can be easily steal / take out of the circulation too.

For eyes reading letters size, a source of stones have to be found for sure. I was thinking of slate which can be easily bought. But it a bit breakable.

10 slates (10 x 12 cm) - 24€
ardoises.jpg

Or natural tiles: Pack of 8 clip-on black stone tiles (30 cm x 30 cm) - 70€
Pack of 8 clip-on black stone tiles.jpg

I will do some math to see if it's realistic.

The Flintstones engraving.jpg
 
Some interesting informations of stone engraving:
- The best results created by the BRM machines are often made in the darker types of stones like marble or granite. These are realized when the stone is polished or when the stone naturally has a close-grained smooth structure. To make the results look even more astonishing our clients sometimes put waterproof paint on the engraved surface to highlight it.

BRM has machines that go up to 150-watt power. Not only hard stone materials are processable by our machines, but also materials like ceramics or porcelain look awesome when engraved by the BRM lasers. Each type of stone reacts differently to the impact of the laser beam. So, there are hardly any regular guidelines for laser engraving stone with a laser machine, but the settings can be adjusted so you can achieve perfect results to meet your specific needs!

- Engraving to the precision of 0.1 mm

- Do higher-powered machines produce better quality engravings?

No, this is incorrect.
Engraving is easier on a low-power machine because it is designed for engraving, since it is equipped with a short focal length lens. More powerful machines are designed for cutting, as they are equipped with a medium focal length lens. In addition, it is easier to adjust the power on low-power machines, which makes it easier to achieve high-quality engraving.

- 50W laser machine Omtech is 2150€

The Laser tube life is not infinite: 2000 hours/24 = 83 days = ~3 months of continuous use.
Laser Tube Life :

- 50W CO2 laser tube with an estimated lifetime of 2,000 operating hours, depending on the use of power settings and water cooling performance.

PLEASE NOTE: Frequent use of high laser power settings will reduce the life of the laser tube as follows:
- Low power 10-40% = 1,700-2,000 hours
- Moderate power 40-70% = 1,300-1,500 hours
- High power 70-100% = 800-1,000 hours

They advice to use the laser at 20% power only.
We do not recommend exceeding 70% of maximum power for any project. If your machine is set up correctly and the software settings are correct, you can achieve the desired cut or engraving quality with a maximum of 50-60% power. Running your machine at more than 70% of maximum power or at more than 20 amps all the time will shorten the life of your laser tube.

It is important to note that constant use of the machine between 70% and 99% of maximum power will considerably reduce the life of the laser tube.

Finally I found a speed table:
Paramètres Normaux pour la Gravure sur Divers Matériaux.jpg

So to engrave a stone of A4 size (210 x 297 mm) at 0.1 mm thickness:
210/125 = 1.68s for 1 line of 0.1 mm
1.68 x (297 x (0.1 x 10)) = 498.96 s ~= 9 mn

With font "Times New Roman" size 8, I get 7100 caractères on a A4.
Sessions are ~326 000 characters so 326000/7100 = 46 stones of A4 size (forget page setting).

46 x 9 = 414 mn = 7 hours. Easy! Of course it's theoretical, in reality we can forecast something like 3 days.

If the 300 x 300 stone of the previous post is used to put the A4 (so loosing some space but it's for the ease of the calculation):
46/8 = 6 packs = 420€ for 143 Kg (315 Lbs or Pound)

So it look like doable and certainly with a lighter machine than the 50W I took as example. A path with those engraved tiles at the castle would be something. :lol:


Sources:
_Natural stone engraving - BRM Lasers
_50W Graveur Laser de CO2 avec 300x500mm Zone de Travail | Turbo-535
 
I do not believe that language will prevail. Tranacripts may become pretty much unreadable. I believe it would be wiser to write things down using simple to understand images or cartoon like stories.

Maybe sone members have enough room at their places to store such devices and enough free tine to use then. if such members exist maybe they should conside fundrising thise things?

Everyone could come up with short story that they think will be usefull for people that will manage to dug dowb those stones. To increase probabilityvthat future archeologist will find thise printing multiple copies of each story abd placing them at multiple locations across the world seems like right thing to do.
 
I do not believe that language will prevail. Tranacripts may become pretty much unreadable. I believe it would be wiser to write things down using simple to understand images or cartoon like stories.
Good luck to make drawing from the sessions! Do you imagine the amount of work? Just to do it, with accuracy of course, and we will engrave it for sure.
 
I guess my previous message may be kinda messy but i was at 2% of battery and my fingers are kinda "too fat" for smartphone touchscreen. I guess haste really makes waste... Sorry for that one.

Good luck to make drawing from the sessions! Do you imagine the amount of work? Just to do it, with accuracy of course, and we will engrave it for sure.

Writing down everything and preserving it most likely won't be possible.
While accuracy is important i feel its better to have things that could be understood by future generations rather than having things that are super accurate, but are written in language that could become quickly unreadable for future generations.

I wonder what percentage of overall questions C's get are same questions they got asked before, but civilization restarted and no one managed to preserve knowledge of previous generations.
 
For example how do you explain the concept of densities with just drawings? If survivors regress to the point of losing the use of language, I believe there's no other solution for them to wait 1000 or 1500 years again.

But what can be interesting eventually is to engrave a "Picture to Word" dictionary like the content of this one:

visual dictionary.jpg visual concepts.jpg

[Edit] This one would be certainly helpful too 😉 :

Lego visual dictionary.jpg
 
Last edited:
Densities are one of those things that seems too complex to be preserved in form of drawings. Mathematics, physics, astronomy, how to breathe, how to build certain things (ikea-like images).

For example how do you explain the concept of densities with just drawings? If survivors regress to the point of losing the use of language, I believe there's no other solution for them to wait 1000 or 1500 years again.
I do not think waiting is solution to anything.
I don't think survivors will regress to the point where they completely lose use of language. What i expect is that they will come up with entirely new language so incompatible with English that deciphering what we gathered may be so time consuming that will decipher it before their cataclysm.

I guess things that travel in time would try to sabotage such early starters, so some images that could warn them about them would be nice as well.

Visual dictionary is also nice idea i like it.
 
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