Mehran Keshe and Keshe Foundation Game Changer or Scam?

[Joe]

Do you have a financial investment in this?

Did you answer this Richard? Maybe I missed it.

 

[Mikey]

The following is Gurdjieff on "Perpetual Motion" from Beelzebubs Tales. I know that we're not exactly talking about Perpetual Motion in this thread, but what he observed about people who are identifying too much with such things is nevertheless relevant to our discussion I think:

"WAIT! WAIT !" Beelzebub interrupted "What you have just been describing must surely be that ephemeral idea that the strange three-brained beings breeding on the planet Earth called 'perpetual motion,' for the sake of which at one time great numbers of them went quite 'mad' or even perished.

"It once happened on that ill-fated planet that somebody got the 'crazy notion' into his head that he could invent a 'mechanism' that would run forever without requiring any material from the outside.

"This notion so took everybody's fancy that most of the crackpots of that peculiar planet began thinking about it and trying to produce this 'miracle'. How many of them had to pay for this ephemeral idea with all the material and spiritual welfare that they had previously acquired at great cost!'

"For one reason or another, they were all quite determined to invent what they imagined would be a 'simple matter.'

"Whenever external conditions permitted, many of them gave themselves up to the search for this perpetual motion, without any inner data for such work, some relying upon their 'knowledge,' others upon 'luck,' but most of them driven by an already full-blown psychopathy.

"In short, to invent perpetual motion became the 'rage' there, and every crank felt obliged to be interested in this question.

"I was once in a town where a large number of 'models' and all kinds of 'descriptions' of proposed mechanisms for this perpetual motion had been collected.

"What could not be found there? What ingenious and complicated machines did I not see? In any single one of these mechanisms there were more ideas and 'wiseacrings' than in all the laws of world-creation and world-existence.

"I noticed at the time that in these innumerable models and plans of proposed mechanisms, the idea of using what is called the 'force of weight' predominated The idea was this a complicated mechanism was designed to lift a 'certain weight,' which was then supposed to fall, and by its fall to set the whole mechanism in motion, and this motion would again lift the weight, and so on without end.

"The result of all this was that thousands of these unfortunates were shut up in 'lunatic asylums,' while thousands more, lost in this dream, completely neglected to fulfill even those being-duties that had somehow been established there in the course of many centuries, or else fulfilled them in the worst possible way.

Notice they key phrases: "Ephemeral idea" and "Lost in this dream", i.e. being in La-La-Land. Not doing duties.

Having said that, Gurejieff does acknowledge some kind of "Free Energy" or "Perpetual Motion" by his description of the Space Ship Beelzebub is flying in.

The central simple point though is that, if you follow the idea through, Free/Zeropoint/Scalar/perpetual/whatever Energy is no solution to the big problems of humanity, for Gurjdieff says:

"There is no progress whatever. Everything is just the same as it was thousands, and tens of thousands, of years ago. The outward form changes. The essence does not change. Man remains just the same. 'Civilized' and 'cultured' people {even with those Free Energy devices in their basements} live with exactly the same interests as the most ignorant savages. Modern civilization is based on violence and slavery and fine words. But all these fine words about 'progress' and 'civilization' are merely words."

...

"People are machines. Machines have to be blind and unconscious, they cannot be otherwise, and all their actions have to correspond to their nature. Everything happens. No one does anything. 'Progress' and 'civilization,' in the real meaning of these words, can appear only as the result of conscious efforts. They cannot appear as the result of unconscious mechanical actions. And what conscious effort can there be in machines? And if one machine is unconscious, then a hundred machines are unconscious, and so are a thousand machines, or a hundred thousand, or a million. And the unconscious activity of a million machines must necessarily result in destruction and extermination. It is precisely in unconscious involuntary manifestations that all evil lies. You do not yet understand and cannot imagine all the results of this evil. But the time will come when you will understand.

 

[Nienna]

I would most certainly not be here in the Forum if I were not being as objective as humanly possible!

This is incorrect, IMO. Members of this forum are here to LEARN to be objective.

I'd like to expand on this. Are you certain that you are as objective as humanly possible? Have you read the books Thinking Fast and Slow and Strangers to Ourselves; or even the threads about those books? If you have, then you are aware that how we see ourselves is usually not the truth. Others see us much better. What we see about ourselves are narratives that we have about ourselves, how we would like to be. But, we do not see how we really are. So you can see why you stating that you are being as objective as humanly possible comes across as a bit egotistical.

I won't pretend to understand any of the technical stuff in this thread, but what I am seeing is you being subjective while thinking you are objective. You seem to be really identified with this project, as others have pointed out. And, it seems to me, that now you can't stop promoting it because that would mean you were wrong all along. You may not (or maybe you do) have any financial investments in this project, but it would seem that you do have emotional investments in it.

 

[Scottie]

We were talking about this at breakfast this morning, and I'll paraphrase some of the stuff we talked about:

"Free energy" can't really be free, because there's no free lunch. If that applies to higher realms, then it certainly should apply to ours.

Well, okay, so it's not really free energy - it's coming from somewhere. This reminded me of some stuff I did a few years ago, where I looked into Tesla's work among others. I quickly concluded that based on just lightning strikes every second on the planet, there is more than enough energy that we could suck out of the "earth-ionsphere capacitor" to power the entire globe.

Fine, but that's not free. And if you suck the juice out of the system, what happens to the weather? What if it prevents that monsoon over in Country A, which means there are no longer rich flood waters that go into Country B, which means all the crops fail in country B? Oops.

Or, if the Electric Universe theory is correct, what are the consequences of extracting energy from the current stream that "powers" the Earth?

But the worst thought is this: Right now, Big Mama is opening up, rockin' and rollin', and generally expressing her displeasure with her inhabitants. This seems to be part a natural cosmic cycle of some sort. Do I really wanna mess with that cycle? I think not. Think Atlantis...

"More power! More power!"

And Big Mama responds, "Oh, you want more power? Here ya go: KAZAP! KABOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!"

Well, okay fine... "But that's a different technology than the one I'm talking about..."

But is it?

It still requires work to discover things, it still requires energy to produce, and it will still be potentially introduced into a world in the iron grip of an immense and powerful fossil fuel industry. Our energy supply system is a means of control, and it won't just disappear overnight. You could even say that the energy industry is one of the main drivers of global wealth + power + chaos.

Put another way, the solutions to man's own mechanicalness and his obsession with physical machines is not more machines; it's something totally different. It's a bit like the current election: You can't fix everything by voting for Jill Stein so that you don't end up with Killary or Drumpf, because the system itself is corrupt and broken. You can't use a broken system to fix a broken system.

Finally, I personally suspect that the reason real solutions to these problems cannot yet come about is because to truly understand any "new physics", you must necessarily involve concepts of higher dimensions/densities, and that would reveal the man behind the curtain - which would change everything.

So, my conclusion was simply this: It isn't time yet. The time and place may come when new technologies will revolutionize everything, but first we as a species would need to earn it by making a statement to the universe + Big Mama that we can actually get our shite together and not obliterate each other and ourselves due to our own illusions and delusions. And I very strongly suspect that any such future technology will literally be like magic... IOW, it would be unlike anything we can conceive of right now.

I think many people have built things that probably do work, but they don't really know why. That's actually rather dangerous, and it certainly doesn't qualify as "creative" in my book. It's more like a toddler playing with a loaded gun and thinking it's so cool. Think Philadelphia Experiment. We don't get to skip 4 grades in school without consequences.

Right now, we've got what we've got because we are reaping what we have sown. We need to "get there" naturally, and that means doing a bit of growing up and learning first - taking care of the duties we have as "conscious/with conscience" beings here and now. THEN we might become responsible enough to wield such great power... which probably means we won't want or need it any more.

 

[luc]

Totally agree with Scottie and others.

We were talking about this at breakfast this morning, and I'll paraphrase some of the stuff we talked about:

"Free energy" can't really be free, because there's no free lunch. If that applies to higher realms, then it certainly should apply to ours.

Indeed, there simply is no free lunch. This seems to be a universal principle and thus applies to technology as well. For every bit of energy that we recieve we need to do something, otherwise we will end up on the STS path under the illusion that we can get stuff for free, not realizing that we become more and more controlled by higher STS forces, osit.

So I think humans are in no way ready for any "free energy" technology (if it's even possible) that wouldn't require any real effort and would blast the boundaries of well-established 3D engineering principles. Related to that, I think the discussion about energy, both in the mainstream and in alternative circles, tends to miss the elephant in the room: that humans are consuming WAY too much energy for the most stupid and useless crap. So do we really wanna give this humanity "unlimited" and "free" energy? So that we can mow our lawn with a laser canon? Or play Pokemon Go on the north pole via satellite link from an implanted mini-device banging out a couple of KW of RF power?

I think Scottie is right, in order for humanity to tinker with higher dimensional technology/physics, we and our whole civilization would have to greatly advance spiritually first. Doesn't really look like that. Otherwise, we would just be further enslaved by technology.

This discussion reminds me of Dan Simmons' Hyperion trilogy, where humanity is enslaved by a technology they don't really understand. As Laura said in the Wave - those who think they can get a free lunch will become the lunch! Just some thoughts...

 

[Richs]

Do you have a financial investment in this?

Did you answer this Richard? Maybe I missed it.

No, not in any way.

 

[Divide by Zero]

Richard, I know it's hard to think of this but just reason with these simple things.

We both don't have the quantum physics know-how on this technology.

So, all we can do is judge it based on it's fruits.

That is following what is objective.
What is subjective is promises that sound great, I'd love them too! But, they aren't happening.


That's the strategy that I have to use at work, since we have a lot of contractors coming in promising the world. I don't know everything in the controls field, so I have to go with what our engineers approve.

Sometimes they approve things that don't work.
In that case, we can stand our ground and point the finger- so our department doesn't get the blame and the burden of the problems.

Sometimes they approve things that work.
In that case, we ask how it works to get better acclimated and be able to take responsibility for the operation.


With Keshe, he is promising a lot, but also in how you stated it to me, it was our (people) responsibility to make it work.
NO, that's his job. Once he makes it work, then it's our responsibility to share it and help eachother.

I don't think Keshe is a psychopath.
Keshe to me sounds like a schizoidal type. I can't even follow his diagrams or discussions.
Maybe he really believes in his inventions and you are empathetic to that.
But, from an outside observer perspective, I feel like you are giving him way too much slack.

 

[Laura]

Richard, I know it's hard to think of this but just reason with these simple things.

We both don't have the quantum physics know-how on this technology.

Ark does and he looked into it rather deeply at the urging of a FORMER member. It was a scam then and since.

 

[Mikey]

I don't think Keshe is a psychopath.
Keshe to me sounds like a schizoidal type. I can't even follow his diagrams or discussions.
Maybe he really believes in his inventions and you are empathetic to that.
But, from an outside observer perspective, I feel like you are giving him way too much slack.

Let's look at what Lobaczewski said about the schizoidal type and see if it matches our observations:

[Schizoid characters] easily become involved in activities which are ostensibly moral, but which actually inflict damage upon themselves and others.
...
In spite of their typical deficits, or even an openly schizoidal declaration, their readers do not realize what the authors' characters are really like. Ignorant of the true condition of the author, such uninformed readers tend to interpret such works in a manner corresponding to their own nature. The minds of normal people tend toward corrective interpretation due to the participation of their own richer, psychological world view.
...
At the same time, many other readers critically reject such works with moral disgust but without being aware of the specific cause.
...
Schizoid characters aim to impose their own conceptual world upon other people or social groups, using relatively controlled pathological egotism and the exceptional tenacity derived from their persistent nature. They are thus eventually able to overpower another individual's personality, which causes the latter's behavior to turn desperately illogical. ... If their activities consist of direct contact on a small social scale, their acquaintances generally just consider them to be eccentric, which limits their ponerogenic role. However, if they manage to hide their own personality behind the written word, their influence may poison the minds of society on a wide scale and for a long time.
...
In spite of the fact that the writings of schizoidal authors contain the above described deficiency, or even an openly formulated schizoidal declaration which constitutes sufficient warning to specialists, the average reader accepts them not as a view of reality warped by this anomaly, but rather as an idea to which he should consider seriously based on his convictions and his reason. That is the first mistake.
...
The oversimplified pattern of ideas, devoid of psychological color and based on easily available data, tends to exert an intense attracting influence on individuals who are insufficiently critical, frequently frustrated as result of downward social adjustment, culturally neglected, or characterized by some psychological deficiencies of their own. Such writings are particularly attractive to a hystericized society. Others who may read such writings will be immediately provoked to criticism based on their healthy common sense...

 

[luc]

Another clue might be a wrong use of sex energy, as described by Gurdjieff:

"This is the 'abuse of sex.' It is necessary, further, to remember that the sex center works with 'hydrogen' 12. This means that it is stronger and quicker than all other centers. Sex, in fact, governs all other centers. The only thing in ordinary circumstances, that is, when man has neither consciousness nor will, that holds the sex center in submission is 'buffers.' 'Buffers' can entirely bring it to nought, that is, they can stop its normal manifestation. But they cannot destroy its energy. The energy remains and passes over to other centers, finding expression for itself through them; in other words, the other centers rob the sex center of the energy which it does not use itself. The energy of the sex center in the work of the thinking, emotional, and moving centers can be recognized by a particular 'taste,' by a particular fervor, by a vehemence which the nature of the affair concerned does not call for. The thinking center writes books, but in making use of the energy of the sex center it does not simply occupy itself with philosophy, science, or politics—it is always fighting something, disputing, criticizing, creating new subjective theories.

For example, in one video he rambles: "You don't need somebody else to tell you what to think. You don't let your wife choose what you eat or what you wear! Why would you allow a so-called scientist who has no clue about science to decide what you write or understand!" _https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piT7Vgc9sCw

In this video, he doesn't ever smile, he looks almost fanatic I think, he smashes his opponents, he shows off and drops names etc., which might well be an abuse of sex energy as Gurdjieff described it, OSIT. Maybe that's a typical phenomenon with the schizoidal types?

 

[Mikey]

I moved this thread into the "Products and Services" category because Keshe is less about science and more about selling products.

 

[Richs]

Thank you all for your thoughts and observations. Perhaps I am more emotionally invested than I was aware. I have still not come to a definitive conclusion as to whether this is valid or a scam, but will continue to observe and share whatever is occurring with this Keshe stuff.

In that respect I can report that a conference was done at the National Press Club, McClendon Room, in Washington, DC on Wednesday, August 17. The URL of a recording is at:
_http://livestream.com/KFSSI/events/5758705/videos/133141415

If you want to skip to the actual beginning of the event scroll to the 41 minute mark.

Mod: disabled link

 

[Mikey]

Thank you all for your thoughts and observations. Perhaps I am more emotionally invested than I was aware. I have still not come to a definitive conclusion as to whether this is valid or a scam, but will continue to observe and share whatever is occurring with this Keshe stuff.

In that respect I can report that a conference was done at the National Press Club, McClendon Room, in Washington, DC on Wednesday, August 17. The URL of a recording is at:
_http://livestream.com/KFSSI/events/5758705/videos/133141415

If you want to skip to the actual beginning of the event scroll to the 41 minute mark.

It would have been considerate to other forum members to provide a relevant and concise summary of the contents beneath a hyperlink. Otherwise you expect other forum members to do the work for you.

If you share links this way, this is not really sharing. It is advertising. And we won't have advertisements as per our Forum Guidelines.

As to your video, it is not worth watching. First Keshe says that the "units" are not really making free energy. Then, it is claimed that the "units" can output megawatts. A simple and direct question about how the energy is produced without attaching it to the power grid, batteries or mechanical input is simply not answered, and then this evasion is not even challenged. "Units" are presented but excuses given why they can't be demonstrated live. In short, it's consistent with what we've seen and heard before.

 

[Joe]

Thank you all for your thoughts and observations. Perhaps I am more emotionally invested than I was aware. I have still not come to a definitive conclusion as to whether this is valid or a scam, but will continue to observe and share whatever is occurring with this Keshe stuff.

Why bother? Why not just let it go? The fact of the matter, which is born out by direct observations of this guy and his "units", and the historical, political and spiritual context of the idea of 'free energy', strongly argues for this amounting to nothing. There is no free lunch in the universe. At this level, we are not entitled to "free energy" because we, as a species, do no have the maturity to handle it and, in addition and directly linked to that lack of maturity, our world is governed by people who exploit everyone and everything for their energy. In short, the "rules" of the game here do not allow for "free energy" for everyone. The closest you can get to free energy down here is dependent on how many slaves you can acquire to do your work for you. In the recent session, there was reference to illusions and delusions, and the effect they have on the human brain. Maybe you would be wise to think about it?

 

[Richs]

It would have been considerate to other forum members to provide a relevant and concise summary of the contents beneath a hyperlink. Otherwise you expect other forum members to do the work for you.

If you share links this way, this is not really sharing. It is advertising. And we won't have advertisements as per our Forum Guidelines.

I will do so in the future.