Seeing someone's lessons - affecting me

Here is some information about co-dependency:

CO-DEPENDENCY
by Patty Simko
http://www.planetpsych.com/zPsychology_101/codependency.htm


By now, many people have heard the term "co-dependency". That is because the syndrome of co-dependency is so widespread, and it appears with ever increasing frequency. What is co-dependency, exactly? And why is it harmful? Why should we care about this strange sounding phenomenon?

Co-dependency is actually an umbrella term; it represents an entire range of feelings, beliefs about ourselves, behaviors and symptoms. The main characteristic is a BIG focus on another person. This is usually our loved one – spouse, significant other, lover, boyfriend/girlfriend. But a person who is co-dependent often is focused on EVERYBODY else, rather than on her/himself. For example, when going out to a restaurant with a group, everyone might be trying to decide on where to go. The co-dependent person will demur, saying, "I don’t care, anywhere is ok with me." While this can be a very useful strategy in a group and make getting places easier, for the co-dependent, this lack of decision-making ability and knee-jerk compliance is a big problem. The co-dependent becomes so compliant and passive, eager to please the others that s/he really does forget to know what s/he wants/likes/prefers!

Typically, the co-dependent person came from a dysfunctional home in which their emotional needs were not met. Their parents were not able to provide the attention, warmth and responsiveness which kids need in order to feel that their needs count. So, they grew up feelings that their needs did NOT matter, that their desires were unimportant, that they themselves were 2nd class citizens. Over time, the co-dependent person actually FORGETS what her or his needs, desires, feelings about things even are! In one cartoon which captures this dynamic, the husband and wife are looking at each other over their menus in a restaurant. The husband says to the wife, "I forget, which one of us doesn’t like fish?"

Of course, as kids, we try and try to get the response we need from our parents...at least until we give up completely. But we remain always drawn to that same sort of familiar person...an emotionally unavailable person whom we can try to get love from, whom we can try to change. The need to re-play the childhood drama and TRY, TRY, TRY to achieve a different ending is so intense, that it determines even the type of person the co-dependent is drawn to! A person who is kind, stable, reliable and interested would not be attractive, typically, to the co-dependent person...they would appear "boring." Having received very little nurturing, the co-dependent tries to fill this unmet need vicariously, by becoming a care-giver, especially to any person who appears in some way needy.

Many consequences flow from this sorry state of affairs. For one, co-dependents become addicted to emotional pain and to unhealthy relationships. They are drawn to people who are not available to them, or who reject them or abuse them. They often develop unhealthy relationships that eventually become unbearable. Because relationships hurt so much, co-dependents are more in touch with the dream of how the relationship COULD be, rather than the reality of the situation.

The co-dependent is often immobilized by romantic obsessions. They search for the "magical quali" in others to make them feel complete. They might idealize other people and endow them with powerful symbolism.

In the relationship, the co-dependent will do anything to keep it from dissolving. This is because s/he is terrified of abandonment, the same psychic abandonment s/he felt as a kid when the parents were not there. So nothing is too much trouble, takes too much time or is too expensive if it will "help" the person the co-dependent is involved with. Co-dependents are willing to take more than 50% of the responsibility, guilt and blame in any relationship (one person told me that when people bumped into her, she was the one who said, "I’m sorry.")

Accustomed to lack of love in a relationship, co-dependents are willing to wait, hope, and try harder to please. At the same time, they have a desperate need to control the relationship. This is because the need to exact the missing love and security s the foremost motivation in any relationship for a co-dependent. Co-dependent people mask these efforts to control people and situations as "being helpful." In fact, attempts to "help" other people, when these others are adults, almost always have elements of control in them.

The paradox here is that co-dependents really fear relationships, because of their bad track record at home! But they continually search for them. In the relationship, they fear abandonment and rejection, or they are chronically angry. But outside of a relationship, they feel empty and incomplete. This is because their self-esteem is critically low, and deep inside, there is some sort of belief that they do not deserve the love they seek, they do not deserve to be happy. Rather, they must work to earn the right to be happy...and of course, they never win.

By being drawn to people with problems that need fixing, or by being enmeshed in situations that are chaotic, uncertain and emotionally painful, they avoid focusing on their responsibility to themselves. While constantly seeking intimacy with another person, the "desperate" quality of their needs makes true intimacy impossible. In trying to conceal the demanding-ness from themselves and others, they grow more isolated and alienated from themselves and from the very people they long to be close to! They may be predisposed emotionally and often biochemically to becoming addicted to drugs, alcohol, and/or certain foods, especially sugary ones. They may have a tendency toward episodes of depression, which they try to forestall through the excitement provided by unstable relationships.

No doubt about it, co-dependency can be a serious, even fatal addiction. Most of us have some of these characteristics, at least at times. And we have to ask what can be done about it? Fortunately, there is hope for the person caught in the trap of co-dependent relationships/personality traits. Recovery from co-dependency is much like recovery from any other addiction: it takes time, commitment, and a willingness to do the work.

Help and Hope for Co-Dependency
In our seminar on co-dependency, we discussed the forces in childhood which lead to adult behavior which focuses on the other as the valued one. We saw the types of behaviors and attitudes which characterize this addiction, and we explored a little bit of the underlying problem.

In this seminar, we will discuss the recovery process, for there is help and hope for people suffering from this dynamic. Even a slight effort toward recovery will make a difference, and there are many resources available to anyone who wishes to begin the recovery process. Here are the steps for recovery as outlined by the 12-step recovery group, Co-dependents Anonymous:

Go for help. A reputable therapist or a recovery group is a very important tool here, because others can help you see your own co-dependent behavior and attitudes in ways you may not see yourself. Co-dependents Anonymous (CODA) is a free group which meets in many places around the country. Therapists likewise can help, and are everywhere. Therapy clinics often offer low fee, professional services provided by therapists who are training for advanced certification.
Make recovery a first priority. Like all addictions, co-dependency is insidious; you may recognize yourself in the symptoms, but then deny their importance, or deny that they apply to you after all. You make decide to change, and then time after time, find yourself doing the same old things. Making recovery a first priority means outlining your destructive behaviors, finding alternative behaviors, and then implementing them! It means going to meetings, challenging yourself, talking with others about changing, and then changing!
Identify with others in your group and begin to know yourself. The more you learn about this disease, the more you will see how it creeps into every aspect of your life, and how destructive it can be. Listening to others, and identifying with them can help you recognize yourself and understand yourself better. These are the first steps toward accepting and loving yourself, and setting higher standards, more appropriate goals.
Develop a spiritual side through daily practice. An inner life is important to those recovering from co-dependency, because it will allow you to see that you are loveable, and that your whole world does not have to revolve around the other person. Your practice might be daily meditation, reflecting on nature, watching the sunrise or sunset, playing music and experiencing its effects on your body, praying to a higher power, working in your garden...any activity which is serene and focuses you on a source of nurturance outside of your brain.

Stop managing and controlling others. This is a big challenge, but an important one. Here you stop telling the other what to do, how to live, what is wrong - or right! - with him or her. You stop intervening, helping, advising, trying to make things better, trying to fix it, trying to force a solution. You simply stop. You allow this other person to make his or her own decisions, for right or for wrong, you let them live their own life. This includes taking responsibility for their own mistakes, their future, their unhappiness, their issues and their own growth.

Courageously face your own problems and shortcomings. Now that you have liberated your energy from the other person's life, you have lots of time and energy to focus on your own life. All the things that occupied you with the other might actually need attention in your OWN life! Often co-dependents in recovery say that they never realized how chaotic their own lives were, or how empty, how lonely, etc. Now is your time to face yourself, instead of dissipating your energy on trying to fix someone else.
Cultivate whatever you need to develop as an individual. In facing yourself, you may see that you need to get in touch with your anger, or grieve what you have lost or what you never had, or contact your inner life. You need to sit still with yourself, that is important...WITH YOURSELF...and find out what you need to do, what you need to be, what you need to address to continue with your development.

Become "selfish." At this point, you need to practice putting yourself first. Do you know how they tell parents on airplanes to always put on your oxygen mask first before trying to help a child with its mask? The adult has to be able to breathe and to have his or her needs adequately addressed before being able to help anybody. This is true for all aspects of life, not just for oxygen masks! Make sure your basic needs are met before you start giving away your time, energy, money, and other resources. Make sure you get your sleep, your meals, your serenity, and whatever else is important to you. When you are adequately supplied, then and only then will you have "stuff" to give to someone else. When co-dependents tell me that they really don't care what decisions are made, and it's ok for the other person to run the show, I tell them to START CARING...to show up and have an opinion. It is important here to learn how to advocate for yourself.

Begin to feel that you are worthy of all life has to offer. This is tricky. Most people, if asked, will say "of course I think I am worthy!" But if you look at their lives, you may see a pattern which belies that belief. They are unhappy in their work, underemployed, bored or otherwise unhappy. Perhaps they don't take care of their bodies, and fail to consult doctors when they need to. Or they overwork, and fail to give themselves enough rest. One woman blew off her doctor's appointment to help her lover with some clerical work; another person needed to be reminded that she was entitled to take her vitamins and be healthy. One way to know the areas in your life in which you have low self-esteem is to look at the places in your life which don't work! What do you tend to complain about? What needs fixing in your life? In your personality? How do these areas reflect low self-esteem?

Recovery from co-dependency is based on increased self-esteem...a self-esteem which can be gained by increased self-knowledge, your strong points and your weak points, and a full acceptance of yourself. There is a basic self-love, which you carefully nurture and expand. You get in touch with your feelings and attitudes about every aspect of your personality, including your sexuality. You begin to not only accept, but to actually cherish every aspect of yourself: your personality, your appearance, your beliefs and values, your body, your interests and accomplishments. You begin to validate yourself, rather than searching for a relationship to give you a sense of self-worth. As you do this, you can enjoy being with others, especially lovers, who are fine just as they are. You will not need to be needed in order to feel worthy.

You also work on accepting others as they are, without trying to change them to meet your needs. You know that you are safe because your standards are higher; you become open and trusting, but only with APPROPRIATE people. You no longer expose yourself to the exploitation of those who are not interested in your well-being. Your higher criteria and standards are reflected in your approach to relationships. Now, instead of hanging on to your relationship for dear life, you ask, "Is this relationship good for me? Does it allow me to grow into all I am capable of being?" When the answer is no, when a relationship is destructive, you are able to let go of it without becoming terrified or unduly depressed. You will find a circle of supportive friends and healthy interests to see you through crises.

Your values change; now, rather than your partner, you value your peace of mind and serenity above all else. You lose interest in the struggles, drama and chaos of the past. You become protective of yourself, your health and your well-being. You come to realize that for a relationship to work, it must be between partners who share similar values, interests, and goals, and who each have the capacity for intimacy.

You come to know that you are worthy of the best that life has to offer, and you know that with help, perhaps, you can find a way to achieve that!

As I was posting this, I realized a few things. First of all, I was asking myself why I felt the need to post this information at all as everyone here is perfectly capable of finding it if interested enough. So why I doing this for everyone else?

The other realization is that I was posting this rather than taking care of a number of things that I need to do for myself. Why was I doing this?

I keep catching myself acting out these same scenarios over and over again. They seem very trivial and harmless, but the degree to which I keep re-enacting the same patterns, again and again have the effect of keeping me in the same place forever. The best thing I can do now for myself is wish everyone well and just detach myself from this thread.

I've already probably said and done too much already.
 
So then it all comes down to the STO way of helping... Helping only when you are asked to...But not everyone comes out and literally asks for help...For example I didn't ask for co dependency info but this info gave
Me a new perspective and helped you saw that it fit in this situation and this is an example of what I'm talking about is it ok to give info if you know it fits?...I believe it really comes down to Being able to discern if what you are going to do will be helpfull...I know the reason behind not giving all the information/help in the world to someone because their being might not be ready and they have to learn their lessons but I also believe that giving people info at the right time can possibly speed up their lesson they can still learn it but at a faster pace and with less pain

Not saying I want to go around helping/fixing everyone as I have a lot of work to do on self but I know there will be times on occasion where knowledge will be helpful for others
 
quote from Meena:

.For example I didn't ask for co dependency info but this info gave
Me a new perspective and helped you saw that it fit in this situation and this is an example of what I'm talking about is it ok to give info if you know it fits?...I believe it really comes down to Being able to discern if what you are going to do will be helpfull

I think it was okay for me to identify the issue as one of co-dependency. But I think I went too far when I looked it up and posted it. Maybe it would have meant more to you if I had withdrawn at that point and given you, and others, the space to look the definition up yourselves if you were interested. Why did I feel that I had to do it for you?

I could be wrong, but I think it would have been healthier if I hadn't posted it . It's that damn issue of being in control - I know that you got the info because I posted it. But why should it make a difference to me whether you got it or not? I'm really trying to understand my motives here. It's like when it's raining and I say to my daughter "It's raining, wear a raincoat." and then I put out the raincoat for her. When I do that she usually leaves it behind. This kind of co-dependent behavior on my part manifests in these very ordinary rebellious situations, which often become unpleasant. Usually, I'll notice after she has left that she hadn't taken it and I get upset. And then I'll forget to take my own raincoat or bring an umbrella and I'm the one who ends up getting not only wet but upset as well. My daughter just ignores me and doesn't get upset at all.

So I'm trying to figure out first how to catch myself before I manifest the behavior of doing for other people what they can do for themselves.
 
webglider said:
quote from Meena:

.For example I didn't ask for co dependency info but this info gave
Me a new perspective and helped you saw that it fit in this situation and this is an example of what I'm talking about is it ok to give info if you know it fits?...I believe it really comes down to Being able to discern if what you are going to do will be helpfull

I think it was okay for me to identify the issue as one of co-dependency. But I think I went too far when I looked it up and posted it. Maybe it would have meant more to you if I had withdrawn at that point and given you, and others, the space to look the definition up yourselves if you were interested. Why did I feel that I had to do it for you?

I could be wrong, but I think it would have been healthier if I hadn't posted it . It's that damn issue of being in control - I know that you got the info because I posted it. But why should it make a difference to me whether you got it or not? I'm really trying to understand my motives here. It's like when it's raining and I say to my daughter "It's raining, wear a raincoat." and then I put out the raincoat for her. When I do that she usually leaves it behind. This kind of co-dependent behavior on my part manifests in these very ordinary rebellious situations, which often become unpleasant. Usually, I'll notice after she has left that she hadn't taken it and I get upset. And then I'll forget to take my own raincoat or bring an umbrella and I'm the one who ends up getting not only wet but upset as well. My daughter just ignores me and doesn't get upset at all.

So I'm trying to figure out first how to catch myself before I manifest the behavior of doing for other people what they can do for themselves.

Webglider, I think you are swinging to the other side here, confusing the issue and missing the point. Sharing information that might potentially be helpful to others has nothing to do with co-dependency. Unless you were trying to control the conversation, which personally I didn't see. Menna said that he found your post helpful, and so did I. But instead of focusing on that you are focusing on how you feel (internal considering) and regret posting something that was useful, which to me seems like a waste of your energy for no reason. It is indeed great that you see your co-dependency issues with your daughter, a few people on the forum at various times tried to help you see that, but with time you will have to learn to distinguish which is which and when it manifests. Menna here asked for advice, and various people, including yourself, gave it to him. That's not what co-dependency describes, is it? My advice - and I am not trying to control or fix you ;) you seem upset - take a few breaths and think about this again when you are more relaxed. My 2 cents.
 
Perhaps the drained feeling is due to feeding directly to 4d STS, since it wouldn't be STO to give unless asked. Ft's one thing to have empathy, but it seems there's more to this, like a frustration, which could be based in a belied that you know what's best for the person or you wish to control the person to alleviate your painful feelings.

Just a thought,
Gonzo
 
Well using the daughter and raincoat example. If you told her it was raining and lets say the first 20 times you told her she herself got the raincoat and then occasionally after she has proven her independence in this situation when you passed the closet if it was going to rain you took it out for her because you knew she has proven that she can do that she is independed in that situation. I think then you would be assisting.

I feel that some people on the forum have proven that they have grown, researched and put forth effort when recognizing this I don't think its codependency to give information when you know that they are capable to do it on their own because it takes time to find the right information and if you know where it is then why not be of assistance. Again it goes to my point of helping, giving information and new perspective making lessons easier to learn for those who you know are capable and that it will assist them even though with or without it the lesson will still be learned you have just made it more efficient. Isn’t this what the C’s/Pleiadians have done given information to make this process easier more efficient for those who are capable of growing
 
Children are a different matter, since they haven't yet developed to capacity to fully assess situations and understand the ramifications of their decisions. Where the outcome isn't hazardous to their lives, it might make more sense to merely provide information, but when the potential consequences are grave, we need to step in. So, age and capacity play a role, especially if we are responsible for their lives until they are mature enough to take over. Like my ex-wife used to say, pick your battles.

Gonzo
 
Gonzo - You are able to SEE...Now with your level of being if someone close to you was telling you 2 or 3 stories and they were interelated and there was a clear lesson or you could give advice to help them in their learning. Would you do that or would you just listen and then after they are done talking move on.

There is definitly some frustration on my part and if the person understood the situation objectively then my feeling would be better too. Thats where I believe the problem lies seeing or hearing another persons problems and having it affect my feeling or wanting to help because it will help me (this last part is STS) - this shouldn't be. Can I get rid of it or will it always be there being that we are STS

What is the lesson here that I have to learn?

Thanks obyvatel
 
Menna said:
Gonzo - You are able to SEE...Now with your level of being if someone close to you was telling you 2 or 3 stories and they were interelated and there was a clear lesson or you could give advice to help them in their learning. Would you do that or would you just listen and then after they are done talking move on.

There is definitly some frustration on my part and if the person understood the situation objectively then my feeling would be better too. Thats where I believe the problem lies seeing or hearing another persons problems and having it affect my feeling or wanting to help because it will help me (this last part is STS) - this shouldn't be. Can I get rid of it or will it always be there being that we are STS

What is the lesson here that I have to learn?

Thanks obyvatel

Did they ask for you to connect the dots for them, to teach them something? Or did they ask for someone to listen to them while they expressed themselves.

It's difficult for us when someone we care about keeps tripping. But, unless they ask for help, I don't think it's our place to point out the problem with their shoelaces. Having said that, I still have trouble in this area and am trying to work through it myself.

But I feel the frustration and other emotions this generates is a result of wanting to control the situation, of wanting the person to see what we see and to learn at the pace we dictate. If we can shift our belief structure and replace our programmed thinking with the idea that everyone has their own lesson path and schedule and it is between them and the universe, then I think we can adopt a sense that by not interfering, we are participating in the creative flow of the universe and allowing everything to unfold as it should. This should replace the frustration with wonderment and awe at the wisdom of the universe, which is ultimately more wise than we can ever be.

That's where I'm trying to get to anyway, fwiw.

Gonzo
 
Gonzo said:
Menna said:
Gonzo - You are able to SEE...Now with your level of being if someone close to you was telling you 2 or 3 stories and they were interelated and there was a clear lesson or you could give advice to help them in their learning. Would you do that or would you just listen and then after they are done talking move on.

There is definitly some frustration on my part and if the person understood the situation objectively then my feeling would be better too. Thats where I believe the problem lies seeing or hearing another persons problems and having it affect my feeling or wanting to help because it will help me (this last part is STS) - this shouldn't be. Can I get rid of it or will it always be there being that we are STS

What is the lesson here that I have to learn?

Thanks obyvatel

Did they ask for you to connect the dots for them, to teach them something? Or did they ask for someone to listen to them while they expressed themselves.

It's difficult for us when someone we care about keeps tripping. But, unless they ask for help, I don't think it's our place to point out the problem with their shoelaces. Having said that, I still have trouble in this area and am trying to work through it myself.

But I feel the frustration and other emotions this generates is a result of wanting to control the situation, of wanting the person to see what we see and to learn at the pace we dictate. If we can shift our belief structure and replace our programmed thinking with the idea that everyone has their own lesson path and schedule and it is between them and the universe, then I think we can adopt a sense that by not interfering, we are participating in the creative flow of the universe and allowing everything to unfold as it should. This should replace the frustration with wonderment and awe at the wisdom of the universe, which is ultimately more wise than we can ever be.

That's where I'm trying to get to anyway, fwiw.

Gonzo

Perhaps trying a "well, would you like to know what I did in a similar situation?" Or maybe a "you know, I read this great book that deals with that topic." You give the person a choice as to whether they want your input or not. Lots of times it "not." They just want either someone to listen to, someone to complain to, or they just love their suffering too much to be interested in how to end it.
 
Excellent ideas, Mrs. Peel. This is a great way of letting someone know that you have some insights that may be of assistance without violating their free will or lesson plan. I agree that often a person is merely wanting another person to listen. Although this is a broad generalization, many men have a fix it program running where they feel they need to fix things when someone tells them a problem. Whereas often women might tell a problem to express their feelings about it and are not necessarily looking for a solution. The very act of verbalizing a problem can often help that person form their own solutions or at least release some of the energy that interferes with problem solving.

Honesty, notwithstanding strategic enclosure, is usually the best policy. Unfortunately, many of us have been programmed to use innuendo or other indirect ways of communicating. It would be a lot easier if someone were to say, "I'm going to tell you about a situation and I just want you to listen and support me, not try to fix things," or have the other person say, "Would you like me to just listen and support you, or would you like me to help solve your problem," but that's not how we are trained to communicate.

My dad used to get frustrated with how he felt women spoke indirectly, which he felt was somewhat dishonest. Although he seemed to understand how patriarchal society had created this behaviour, he couldn't grasp how unconscious and involuntary it was. Nor could he discern his own patriarchal programming, let alone grasp that sometimes people don't want their problems solved, they just want someone to listen.

I am so grateful that my ex-wife and current partner are well versed in women's history and the effects the patriarchal society has had on women, otherwise I would have had the same attitude and level of frustration that my father had.

Gonzo

Edit: typo
 
Gonzo said:
If we can shift our belief structure and replace our programmed thinking with the idea that everyone has their own lesson path and schedule and it is between them and the universe, then I think we can adopt a sense that by not interfering, we are participating in the creative flow of the universe and allowing everything to unfold as it should. This should replace the frustration with wonderment and awe at the wisdom of the universe, which is ultimately more wise than we can ever be.

Very true Gonzo,

In those moments when even the coarsest degree of this state has been sustained while interacting with others, things I would never have expected them to say, they have said, and I was left internally flabbergasted. So yes, everyone has their own lessons to learn and their own schedule with which to learn it. You've further clarified it for me Gonzo, thanks.

Those are excellent ideas Mrs. Peel, and I did it without having heard of the principle, at least till now. I have found hinting, in the spirit of what you posted, balances the interaction because if they choose to take it further they can, but if they do not, there is no harm done to anyone.

Gonzo said:
Honestly, notwithstanding strategic enclosure, is usually the best policy. Unfortunately, many of us have been programmed to use innuendo or other indirect ways of communicating. It would be a lot easier if someone were to say, "I'm going to tell you about a situation and I just want you to listen and support me, not try to fix things," or have the other person say, "Would you like me to just listen and support you, or would you like me to help solve your problem," but that's not how we are trained to communicate.

My dad used to get frustrated with how he felt women spoke indirectly, which he felt was somewhat dishonest.

Agreed that the complex dance that is communication, has been made more so because of the foreign installation in our organism. Directly expressing ourselves would go a long way to cutting through all the crap that makes up the prison of our being. I see now that I am also one of those who speak indirectly, at least when personally interacting with others, it goes back to expecting others to be able to read my mind, which at it's heart is hiding, ie it is a defense, that is a buffer against honest expression of ourselves, osit.
 
quote from Alana:

Webglider, I think you are swinging to the other side here, confusing the issue and missing the point. Sharing information that might potentially be helpful to others has nothing to do with co-dependency. Unless you were trying to control the conversation, which personally I didn't see. Menna said that he found your post helpful, and so did I. But instead of focusing on that you are focusing on how you feel (internal considering) and regret posting something that was useful, which to me seems like a waste of your energy for no reason. It is indeed great that you see your co-dependency issues with your daughter, a few people on the forum at various times tried to help you see that, but with time you will have to learn to distinguish which is which and when it manifests. Menna here asked for advice, and various people, including yourself, gave it to him. That's not what co-dependency describes, is it? My advice - and I am not trying to control or fix you ;) you seem upset - take a few breaths and think about this again when you are more relaxed. My 2 cents.


I want to thank you Alana for understanding the impulse that gave rise to the post where I expressed concern that by posting, I was doing too much. I think I will be second guessing myself for a while as this behavior is so much a part of the way I function in the world. Yes, you're right, I am upset because in looking over my life I see so many examples of unhappiness that I caused others and others caused me because I wasn't aware of this dynamic.

Right now I'm basically staying away from people, writing, and reflecting a lot. I feel a lot of grief for so much of the unnecessary suffering that I caused to others and that I allowed others to cause to me, but thankfully I don't feel any anger. My daughter is away, and I'm trying to figure out what changes I need to make before she comes home and how I should go about it. I think both of us realize that it's time for her to move out and find her own way. I'm also trying to figure out what I need for myself which is really hard because, in the past, I always filled my time trying to "help" others.

So I guess it is a good thing that I posted the information for others to see - that's the purpose of the forum after all, and I've learned a lot from everyone else during the time I've been here. I think though, that maybe I'll be able to learn and contribute more once I better understand the dynamic I'm wrestling with and free myself from it to a greater extent.

modified by adding more information after I posted this too soon.
 
Ms. Peel - I like that...asking permission to help or not to help. For me if I ask if they want advice or my take on the situation and they say no just listen then it wont affect me so much because I know there is nothing I can or should do other than listen then they are done talking and I wouldn't think about their situation. Part of the termoil that is inside me with this topic is maybe I am not recognizing when someone is asking for help so by being PROACTIVE and asking if they want it will help me.

Webglider - Yes we have all caused others unhappness as well as ourselves EE is good at pointing this out for me. But you have grown out of it what would make me more upset would be wasting energy on thinking about the past, taking away energy to create a better present and future. You have the knowledge now to treat yourself and others better thats a great thing. Sounds like your daughter is younger perhaps in her 20's...now you have alot of time in her life to treat her the right way, watch and assist (when asked) in her growth.
 
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