Solar Panels and Solar Water Heating Systems

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I want to summarize some of the things one can do with Solar Panels nowadays, and what to look out for, for those interested. But first off, I would like to emphasize and recommend having a reliable backup system (first and foremost) based around electricity/heat generation through fossil fuels (Gas, Petrol, Diesel etc.) or wood/coal. In this thread, you can read some of the basic ideas behind backup systems of that kind.

I personally have set up a system now that is pretty unique and is based around the idea of tracking the sun (or more correctly, photons) with a one of a kind tracking system by an inventor as the centerpiece of the system. The tracker is based around the idea of detecting the most energy dense point in the sky dome (where most photons are coming through). Interestingly and surprisingly for me at first was this: Especially in the early morning and late evening hours and during cloudy days, that point in the sky is often not where the sun actually is! Sounds counterintuitive, but it is true! After thinking about it and asking the inventor, he confirmed my initial guess on why that is, after I observed it myself; The inventor of the tracker explained it in that way to me:

The evening sky with the sun appears bright, but at the horizon the light has to travel through at least 400 miles through the atmosphere, bugs, particulates, etc so it is not as bright as one might think. (99% of the atmosphere directly above you is only about 30 miles thick with only only a few miles of particulates.) And at the same time of day the foreground is fairly dark, not much diffuse light to brighten it up. It is actually a bit of an optical illusion.

I have designed my system around maximizing the amount of energy in bad weather and/or when it is situated at a less than optimal position (shading, not much direct sun coverage etc). My preliminary/rough calculations now show that the system actually produces between 10 to 40 times (1000 - 4000%) more energy during bad weather then a similar sized normal/standard solar panel positioned stationary southward (in the western hemisphere)! It also works most efficiently during cold winter days with snow on the ground, since it also capitalizes on the Albedo effect. That is because I have chosen to work with bifacial solar panels. I have also designed the system to be as light and portable as possible. Everything can be set up and disassembled quickly into a small space. That system comes as close as you can get to "free energy" in my book. I can generate/operate pretty much any electrical device up to around 2100 Watt and can even heat pretty efficiently (both water and air). Which is pretty much unheard of for such a small system that only nominally consists of two 220W bifacial Panels. Practically speaking, I can heat and produce/use lots of energy for free without the need of any conventional fossil fuels or wood, while having maximized the energy coming through in bad weather significantly. "Free" energy!

There is quite a lot more to the system and how I set it up and constructed it. But I won't (and can't at this point) go into any further details about it, instead I would like to share some of my experiences on what to look out for if you want to try to use solar energy:

- I personally have decided to use bifacial solar panels. As far as I know, generally speaking, they have only one downside compared to standard panels, which is: They are MUCH more expensive, but still affordable. I personally never shy away from investing more into quality products. In fact, I think it most often pays out in the long run, not only in terms of money. Other than that, they have only plus points compared to traditional/standard panels in my book: 1: They are much thinner and less heavy, 2: if positioned optimally, they produce quite a lot more energy compared to standard panels of the same size, especially in bad/low light conditions, 3: Their life span is similar if not better compared to standard panels, 4: They work especially well/efficient in cold and snowy conditions since they harvest the Albedo effect. [Edit 29.11.2023. Added the following two points=] 5: Bifacial panels handle snowloads better. Especially if positioned at an angle and you have a good Albedo effect (via snow on the ground or similarly diffuse white grounds) those panels tend to melt the snow on the panel much more pronounced even in very cold weather. Which means that they tend to clear/melt the snow away above the cells quite effectively in contrast to standard panels. 6: A good positioned bifacial panel can continue producing electricity (although much reduced) when the top is covered with snow because of the bifacial feature.

- While I have personally decided to work with bifacial panels, in most cases, especially if you want to set up a bigger system, standard panels are much more economical in terms of costs for purchase. So I would go for standard panels if you need lots of them.

- You can also try to work with solar water heating systems, which are primarily designed for heating water and not for producing electricity. But I have personally decided against that since I can heat, although on a limited basis (water and air) with my small system via electricity. Also, setting up such a solar water heating system can be very cumbersome, and depending on where you life, the government can have lots of rules and regulations that you need to abide by. Also, from the little I heard, depending on the brand, they can easily be destroyed by hail. But don't quote me on that!

- Whatever you want to do, be it Solar water heating or standard solar panels (electricity) there are numerous companies who can do all the heavy lifting for you, for a price though.

- I personally decided to go for a tracking system. There are quite a limited number of those out there, but the one I went for is by far the best IMO in every way. Just mechanically speaking, all the others that I could find are much more vulnerable and much less stable/durable.

- Especially if you have enough area to put up lots of panels, I would recommend not to use a tracking system, nor bifacial panels (mainly because of the price). Unless, of course, you have a lot of spare money at your disposal.

- Be warned, no matter if you go with standard solar panels or bifacial ones, there are a number of things you need to be aware of. 1: There are quite a number of different types of solar cells, 2: You need to look out for the efficiency of a panel. Very generally speaking, the higher the efficiency the more energy it can produce UNDER BEST CONDITIONS (the best commercial/affordable ones right now are around 24 % efficiency), 3: and most importantly of all in my book, no matter how good the efficiency of a panel is formally rated, it can, (AS MOST DO!), perform VERY poorly in cloudy/shady conditions!!! From what I could gather, the reason for that is mostly how exactly the solar-cells are wired inside the panels (parallel and/or series types of wiring seem to be the key here). The way the cells of one panel are wired together within (and how several panels in turn are connected to each other, on the other hand) can have a huge impact on what amount of energy you are getting when the panel/-s are confronted with cloudy weather and/or shading. Most standard panels for houses perform very poorly in cloudy/shady conditions because of that! Because of that, it is quite common that many Panels/Systems produce almost no electricity at all (even in best weather!) when, for example, just a tiny part of the array is shaded! A small leaf can do that! To better illustrate that point, watch this video:


or the following video, where you can see differently wired solar panels and what effect shading can have on energy output, depening on the wiring of the panel:


So what this means is, that you need to look for Panel-s that have a good shading behavior. If you don't do that, you will produce almost no electricity at all in best weather/sun conditions if any part of the system is shaded, even just minimally, and/or when the weather is cloudy/bad! Which is very bad, indeed! But there are Panels/Companies out there who wire their panels in a way to avoid just that. Which makes a huge difference! Sometimes the only way to be sure if your Panel/System has a good shading behavior is to either ask/write to the manufacturer itself and/or try to find independent tests on youtube and/or magazines where you can see the shading behavior yourself. The latter part is what I did to find the right bifacial panel for my needs.

- No matter if you use a bifacial, standard or solar water heating panel/system (and you are not using a tracker) it is best to have them permanently fixed facing a specific area in the sky (in the norther hemisphere, that is most often done facing south) and at a specific angle. But depending on your location and how much free sun coverage you get THROUGHOUT the year and what you PRIORITIZE, that direction can differ! You need to find that out by observing the course of sun throughout the year at the place where you want to set it up (which I did) and/or try tools that simulate that (via Apps, for example) or companies that can do that for you. Tip: Observing the course of the sun on summer and winter solstice respectively shows you the shortest and longest pathway of the sun in each year. I would personally prioritize to get as much energy as possible in winter, since at the northern latitude I'm situated in, the amount of daylight and/or sun coverage is much reduced in winter, while in summer you naturally get plenty more. And also, of course, because in terms of an emergency, in winter you are much more likely to need the power.

- Generally, speaking, Solar Panels work more efficiently in cold weather

- If you want to set up a bigger system and have kept in mind the points above, what is called "over paneling" in the solar business can come in very handy, most especially during bad weather. On the most basic level, what it means is that you put up more panels than you need, which then can produce more power in bad weather conditions.

- No matter which type of Solar system you look for, make sure that the cells have at least some basic protection against bending and things like hail. A weather/hail proofed Glass coverage, that is either, between, or better, over the cells, is a standard consideration on that front.

- [Edit 29.11.2023. Added the following=] Be aware of snowloads on solar panels in the winter. When there is snow cover on standard solar panels they pretty much stop to function. Bifacial panels handle snowloads better. Especially if positioned at an angle and you have a good Albedo effect (via Snow on the ground or similarly diffuse white grounds), those panels tend to melt the snow on the panel much more pronounced even in very cold weather. Which means that they tend to clear/melt the snow away by themselves above the cells quite effectively in contrast to standard panels. The handling of snowloads is even better when you have a tracking system equipped with bifacial panels. A good positioned bifacial panel can continue producing electricity (although much reduced) when the top is covered with snow because of the bifacial feature.

Edit; 29.11.2023= Added additional information
 
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Awesome and informative thread idea. (Is there one already?) whatever, great idea. What I am discovering is that each situation is unique and requires a unique setup.

For example, my mobile home is in one spot with its own electrical panel. 20 feet away is the main power coming in. Then I have one well house with a box that supplies power to the inground well pump at 220volts and a separate well house with a 2000 gal cistern that feeds the house from a115volt pump. And the best roof for solar is on a 4th out building (!) also near by. My head is swimming with possibilities, none perfect. The lesson here is to prioritize. And plan and ask questions before buying stuff and slapping it together. Think it through.
 
Re priorities, and creativity. how important is hot water vs just having any water at all? When I visited my wife’s family in Poland under the communist regime (1988) they’d just take a big pot and heat it on the stove and that was your water to bath with. ….For two people! But it worked. The perfect low tech backup system. Big $$$ not necessary. A butane/propane hot plate and a pot from the thrift or camping store.

Also along those lines re solar power, what is absolutely necessary or desired? Your hair dryer? (Lol) refrigerator. What can you do without? All the 220volt units are super taxing. And perhaps out of the equation. It is necessary to observe your life and imagine it if there was a power outage for a month. What could you do without and what do you really need? Recharging the damn gizmos? Washing clothes is easy with no power. But drying them in the winter?
 
I have a small system for emergencies, but it is very expandable in terms of battery stacks (up to 96!!) and panel set branches (series of 4 100 watt). I have 2 batteries and 4 panels, plus the generator. Goal is to expand and wire the system into my home and (eventually) try to use it for most of my electricity needs. I use Linx panels, which I think are no longer available. They are very thin and easy for me to lift. I can even set them inside my windows for decent system charge. Inergy Linx 100 Solar Panel
I'm working on getting passive solar heat and better insulation.
I have a fireplace that might be big enough for some cooking. Extreme cold situation plan is to move into and live out of that room. HVAC is the biggest energy hog, so I use that to a minimum. I use dehumidifiers in hot weather, keep curtains closed and keep interior only about 10 degrees F cooler than outside.
Main needs are lighting, powering communication devices and refrigeration. I'm fine with using a chest cooler, just need some way to make ice. Freezer and/or refrigerator need not run constantly. Obviously, one can take advantage of the cold outside when available for free.
I like the idea of using a solar oven, but have not tried it.
I would like to have a well here, but our water table is way too deep for easy DIY and price for pro is astronomical.
So next thing will be a water collection/storage system.
Those 'solar shower' bags are pretty good water heaters on a clear day. I think one could heat water during the day, then place the bag/s in insulated boxes lined with a mylar blanket to have warm water available all night.
The insulated box thing (and a whole lot more) is discussed in this article on cooking efficiency in the section on 'fireless cookers'.
 
[…]Those 'solar shower' bags are pretty good water heaters on a clear day. I think one could heat water during the day, then place the bag/s in insulated boxes lined with a mylar blanket to have warm water available all night.
The insulated box thing (and a whole lot more) is discussed in this article on cooking efficiency in the section on 'fireless cookers'.
[…]

Yes, if everything else fails and there is no fossil fuels or wood (or if I want to safe those for the most dire situations) I also have decided to buy such a type of bag! All you need is good sunshine for a while and you have (20 Liters in my case, of) warm/hot water for use as a shower or to use otherwise. And in winter, you set it up some place, preferably inside, where the sun can shine on it, trough a window. Although in my case I have decided to go for a more durable military type from switzerland, with the best combination of additional parts:


With shipping it was only 152€. You can get the basic one much cheaper too.

I bought this configuration (use DeepL for translation from german to your language):


PS: I was (and still am) kinda suspicious from the get-go if brands who sell such types of bags are not primarily using black as the color for the bag. Some don’t even bother making it black in any way! It should be kind of a no brainer that it should be black.
 
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I agree. Apparently you can buy the coils preformed from hardware stores (from the comments in the Twitter thread). Would be a cool (hot?) experiment to try though!
 
I agree. Apparently you can buy the coils preformed from hardware stores (from the comments in the Twitter thread). Would be a cool (hot?) experiment to try though!

My bet is is on a hoax for now. There are several things that make me skeptical:

1: He say’s that „hot water rises to the top“, although that might be sort of true, I can hardly imagine that this makes “it work“. Much more likely IMO would be that hot water expands and that is what „is pushing it up trough the coils“.

2 Fire/Flames are much hotter at the top end of the flames compared to lower portions of the flame and the coal bed. Which should mean that “the water in“ the top portion of the coils is much hotter then in the lower portions. Which should result in the reverse “mechanism“ that he claims “makes it work“.

3: Water above 100 Degrees Celsius turns into a Gas/Steam state. We can assume that pretty much every part of the coils next to the fire is well above that temperature. Thus there should be no water in the coils but Steam. Which again contradicts his claimed “mechanism“.

4: You can’t see any water coming out the uppermost pipe, nor steam, which is actually what you really would expect coming out of that pipe.

5: The uppermost pipe is only halfway in the water while he claims something like “it sucks it in a loop“. I can’t imagine it sucking anything if the uppermost pipe isn’t even fully immersed in the water.
 
My bet is is on a hoax for now. There are several things that make me skeptical:

1: He say’s that „hot water rises to the top“, although that might be sort of true, I can hardly imagine that this makes “it work“. Much more likely IMO would be that hot water expands and that is what „is pushing it up trough the coils“.

2 Fire/Flames are much hotter at the top end of the flames compared to lower portions of the flame and the coal bed. Which should mean that “the water in“ the top portion of the coils is much hotter then in the lower portions. Which should result in the reverse “mechanism“ that he claims “makes it work“.

3: Water above 100 Degrees Celsius turns into a Gas/Steam state. We can assume that pretty much every part of the coils next to the fire is well above that temperature. Thus there should be no water in the coils but Steam. Which again contradicts his claimed “mechanism“.

4: You can’t see any water coming out the uppermost pipe, nor steam, which is actually what you really would expect coming out of that pipe.

5: The uppermost pipe is only halfway in the water while he claims something like “it sucks it in a loop“. I can’t imagine it sucking anything if the uppermost pipe isn’t even fully immersed in the water.
My bet: Likely to be very effective! So convinced of this am I that I might rig a petite version to test, using a collapsable tub and my fireplace as the heat source. Who wouldn't like a hot bath, a place for laundry, or a good washing up spot in a grid-down/ice storm situation?

My comments on your concerns follow. I am not a physicist. I welcome corrections to my present beliefs.

1. I don't think water expands until it freezes. I don't know the exact mechanism for colder water being at greater depth, but I do know it to be this way under normal circumstances. SCUBA diving experiences taught me this.

2. Temperature gradient in the tub might be enough to keep water flowing through the coil.

3. Just because the coil is very hot does not make the water very hot. Water and coil with have heat exchange, heating the water while cooling the coil. Until all water is near boiling temperature, it won't boil, assuming there is a good flow of cooler water.

4/5. If the upper pipe is halfway submerged, there could be an inflow of water that you are not seeing. Tub environment is dark and misty, which impairs me getting good visual details.
 
My bet: Likely to be very effective! So convinced of this am I that I might rig a petite version to test, using a collapsable tub and my fireplace as the heat source. Who wouldn't like a hot bath, a place for laundry, or a good washing up spot in a grid-down/ice storm situation?

My comments on your concerns follow. I am not a physicist. I welcome corrections to my present beliefs.

1. I don't think water expands until it freezes. I don't know the exact mechanism for colder water being at greater depth, but I do know it to be this way under normal circumstances. SCUBA diving experiences taught me this.

2. Temperature gradient in the tub might be enough to keep water flowing through the coil.

3. Just because the coil is very hot does not make the water very hot. Water and coil with have heat exchange, heating the water while cooling the coil. Until all water is near boiling temperature, it won't boil, assuming there is a good flow of cooler water.

4/5. If the upper pipe is halfway submerged, there could be an inflow of water that you are not seeing. Tub environment is dark and misty, which impairs me getting good visual details.
What you are discussing here reminds me of gravity heating systems which, for example, are still common in older houses in Hungary. They work without a water pump.

The working principle is explained here:

or here:

 
What you are discussing here reminds me of gravity heating systems which, for example, are still common in older houses in Hungary. They work without a water pump.

The working principle is explained here:

or here:

I stand corrected on the water density issue.
 
My bet: Likely to be very effective! So convinced of this am I that I might rig a petite version to test, using a collapsable tub and my fireplace as the heat source. Who wouldn't like a hot bath, a place for laundry, or a good washing up spot in a grid-down/ice storm situation?

I would be interested to see the results! Let us know. I'm still pretty doubtful, though. In the comment section on the video, a number of people claim that it is working too, so worth a try, I guess. If it works, it would be a pretty amazing and simple solution!
 
My bet is is on a hoax for now. There are several things that make me skeptical:

1: He say’s that „hot water rises to the top“, although that might be sort of true, I can hardly imagine that this makes “it work“. Much more likely IMO would be that hot water expands and that is what „is pushing it up trough the coils“.

2 Fire/Flames are much hotter at the top end of the flames compared to lower portions of the flame and the coal bed. Which should mean that “the water in“ the top portion of the coils is much hotter then in the lower portions. Which should result in the reverse “mechanism“ that he claims “makes it work“.

3: Water above 100 Degrees Celsius turns into a Gas/Steam state. We can assume that pretty much every part of the coils next to the fire is well above that temperature. Thus there should be no water in the coils but Steam. Which again contradicts his claimed “mechanism“.

4: You can’t see any water coming out the uppermost pipe, nor steam, which is actually what you really would expect coming out of that pipe.

5: The uppermost pipe is only halfway in the water while he claims something like “it sucks it in a loop“. I can’t imagine it sucking anything if the uppermost pipe isn’t even fully immersed in the water.
This is standard gravity feed plumbing
It is been used for solid fuel ranges & back boilers and it works quite well.
 
I would be interested to see the results! Let us know. I'm still pretty doubtful, though. In the comment section on the video, a number of people claim that it is working too, so worth a try, I guess. If it works, it would be a pretty amazing and simple solution!
I will endeavor to do so. Don't hold your breath while I assemble the needful stuff. I have a small copper coil for distillation with a pressure cooker, fits on to medical grade tubing, which also fits the steam release valve perfectly. Maybe I could first try making a super mini (hearth size) with this and an old pot fitted with some old steam release valves. That would be a good size for washing smalls, getting sponge baths, doing dishes, filling hot water bottles, warming up pouch foods and such. Also would be good for quickly melting snow and ice when pipes are frozen or water is otherwise shut off in the home. I really like this idea. The tube is easy to disconnect from the coil for draining, filling hot water bottles, etc.
Actually, I think hearth size is the way to go in my case since my hearth is raised for sitting and there would maybe be a problem getting pipes at the right level for a larger (floor) tub. Such a tub would need to be raised with a very sturdy platform as water is heavy. Let's keep it simple for now. Also, if such a pot has a lid and is not too big, one might easily carry the hot water pots to the kitchen, bathroom or laundry area, keeping them in (DIY) insulated boxes. Since the tubes disconnect easily from the coil, it should be easy to just reconnect coil to another modified pot. More humidity is more comfortable in Winter. Many uses for gray water around the house, even flushes toilets when water is shut off.
Water makes an excellent battery when used for heat exchange. It can cool you in summer and warm you in winter. Minimum cash outlay, infinitely rechargeable, solar storm proof, no environmental harm, plus extremely versatile (even essential) in terms of number of uses for the product (water).
Time to go a-thrifting!




 
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