d3ck3r said:
Alada said:
One way to counter the knee jerk reactions of the predator when they come up in us is to remember this: No one here should accept without question, anything that he or she has not first verified for themselves.
If there is something that we don't understand, can't quite get our head around, then leave it be until enough data is collected one way or the other. (...) That kind of thinking helps nobody, and infact, those that do swallow things wholesale in such a way without first verifying them, don't do themselves or the forum any favours.
I
fully agree, but it took me
years to understand that. Why? read further...
Alada said:
There is no YOU MUST BELIEVE THIS OR BE DAMNED required or wanted here.
And here is exactly where you're wrong and this is one of the very reasons why I've lost my faith in this group.
Years ago in Casschat I wasn't told that, at least I don't remember, but even if they did told me that, the group still pushed me to believe them word by word. There was a tradition in that group, that if someone didn't agreed with the rest, he/she was pushed hard enough to make him/her leave the group on his/her own. This tradition ended up in brainwashing me because that group was the only thing I had back then (and I really needed support after seeing those 2 souls because it was extremely shocking and terryfing), so I believed them to be smarter than me, because it was exactly what they wanted and that was a condition to stay in the group.
This brainwashing procedure led me to similar situation as the one with Breton. In time with this group, I've gradually started to loose my intelligence and perceptivity. After some time (especially on later group Casstraux) I started to act like a child (I even remember Iza noticing it) and I had a really hard time in understanding what people talked about - I remember when it tooked me days to understand what Ark said to someone from the group. Thankfully both groups were closed and I was left alone and eventually my intelligence returned. After years I've discovered that the reason for my lost intelligence was similar to Breton's - I didn't listened to my heart (True Self), that in my case wanted to criticize this group for what they did.
So I wonder Alada, is your point of view on that problem same as Laura's and others?
Laura said:
But right away you must give up the idea that you have a clue about anything: you don't.
Those are Laura's words from this very topic. Did she
proposed to me that I should
think on my own and
verify her data? Or did she
demanded my
submission to her ignorance
right away? And what happened when I refused? - I was instantly banned and after it came doubtful assumptions about me, that distorted everyone's perception of reality. And I'm not saying here, that there wasn't any truth at all in those distortions, but just look how people react to me now - they are no longer able to see the light in me, they see only darkness. It is a pathological white and black worldview and it is Laura's fruit - a rotten apple.
And I really don't care what you all think about me, I'm simply showing that many people around this forum are far from "thinking on their own" and that someone (Laura) is thinking for them. If the egotism of the predator inside me would be my concern, than I would never came to this forum with wish to tell you what I have discovered, because things that I have discovered are so extremely dark and terrifying, that people will eat me alive for sharing them. From Castaneda...
Carlos Castaneda "Active Side Of Infinity said:
After a moment's pause, long enough for me to recover, I asked don Juan: "But why is it that the sorcerers of ancient Mexico and all sorcerers today, although they see the predators, don't do anything about it?"
"There's nothing that you and I can do about it," don Juan said in a grave, sad voice. "All we can do is discipline ourselves to the point where they will not touch us. How can you ask your fellow men to go through those rigors of discipline? They'll laugh and make fun of you, and the more aggressive ones will beat the shit out of you. And not so much because they don't believe it. Down in the depths of every human being, there's an ancestral, visceral knowledge about the predators' existence."
My earlier egotism was a consequence of Laura's extreme ignorance in the very beginning of this topic. I came with good intentions of sharing what I've learned and she was the first one to throw a stone at me. I shared in this way, because I was curious if anyone will be interested in observing themselves as I did, to see if anyone else can find those things inside oneself and therefore to engage others in a
collaborative study about it. I had the idea, that we can create that e-book
together, what I have written there was only a very rough start of it. I wanted to engage others that would be interested, simply because I've read many times (from Laura too) that many people around this forum are doing nothing - and this doing nothing is another of Laura's rotten apples, because instead of inspiring others to conduct their own search, she is demanding submission and accepting everything from her without even giving it a thought. This is exactly what is seen in her words from this topic, that I've quoted above and it is exactly what caused my brainwashing in Casschat group. I didn't submit this time, because I've already knew what would happen - I would literally
reject my True Self AGAIN and that isn't an option anymore.
[quote author=Laura"]
I have encountered people in very poor and backward circumstances who truly did not know that being clean was an option. They had been dirty all their lives. They looked curiously at my hands because they were not smudged with dirt.
You are extremely dirty with your constant aggressive violation of other people's wills and even more so with your ignorant lie, that you aren't dirty.
Alada said:
If we don't learn to think for ourselves, someone or something else will do the thinkng for us.
That someone/something (predator) is already doing the thinking for us. If it would be otherwise, than we wouldn't be in a sleep in the first place and therefore I've learned something even more important. It isn't only about thinking on our own. I've seen how predator manipulates me with his thoughts, so it isn't enough to say that we should think on our own. For me now, the truth is this: Think on your own,
under the guidance of your heart.
And it is my heart/my True Self that guides me in this critical words and not because it wishes me to defame anyone, but because it wishes me to speak the truth aloud and to see what happens.
[/quote]
Thomas did you already read the following writtings, it could help you to understand what happened and what is happening now again:
"As has been explained before, there are many qualities which men
attribute to themselves, which in reality can belong only to people of a
higher degree of development and of a higher degree of evolution than man
number one, number two, and number three. Individuality, a single and
permanent I, consciousness, will, the ability to do, a state of inner
freedom, all these are qualities which ordinary man does not possess. To the
same category belongs the idea of good and evil, the very existence of
which is connected with a permanent aim, with a permanent direction and a
permanent center of gravity.
"The idea of good and evil is sometimes connected with the idea of truth and
falsehood. But just as good and evil do not exist for ordinary man, neither
do truth and falsehood exist. "Permanent truth and permanent falsehood can
exist only for a permanent man. If a man himself continually changes, then
for him truth and falsehood will also continually change. And if people are
all in different states at every given moment, their conceptions of truth
must be as varied as their conceptions of good. A man never notices how he
begins to regard as true what yesterday he considered as false and vice
versa. He does not notice these transitions just as he does not notice the
transitions of his own I's one into another.
"In the life of an ordinary man truth and falsehood have no moral value of
any kind because a man can never keep to one single truth. His truth
changes. If for a certain time it does not change, it is simply because it
is kept by 'buffers.' And a man can never tell the truth. Sometimes 'it
tells' the truth, sometimes 'it tells' a lie. Consequently his truth and his
falsehood have no value; neither of them depends upon him, both of them
depend upon accident. And this is equally true when applied to a man's
words, to his thoughts, his feelings, and to his conceptions of truth and
falsehood. "In order to understand the interrelation of truth and falsehood
in life a man must understand falsehood in himself, the constant incessant
lies he tells himself.
"These lies are created by 'buffers' In order to destroy the lies in oneself
as well as lies told unconsciously to others, 'buffers' must be destroyed.
But then a man cannot live without 'buffers.' 'Buffers' automatically
control a man's actions, words, thoughts, and feelings. If 'buffers' were to
be destroyed all control would disappear. A man cannot exist without
control even though it is only automatic control. Only a man who possesses
will, that is, conscious control, can live without 'buffers.' Consequently,
if a man begins to destroy 'buffers' within himself he must at the same
time develop a will. And as will cannot be created to order in a short
space of time a man may be left with 'buffers' demolished and with a will
that is not as yet sufficiently strengthened. The only chance he has during
this period is to be controlled by another will which has already been
strengthened.
"This is why in school work, which includes the destruction of 'buffers,' a
man must be ready to obey another man's will so long as his own will is not
yet fully developed. Usually this subordination to another man's will is
studied before anything else. I use the word 'studied' because a man must
understand why such obedience is necessary and he must learn to obey. The
latter is not at all easy. A man beginning the work of self-study with the
object of attaining control over himself is accustomed to believe in his own
decisions. Even the fact that he has seen the necessity for changing
himself shows him that his decisions are correct and strengthens his belief
in them. But when he begins to work on himself a man must give up his own
decisions, 'sacrifice his own decisions,' because otherwise the will of the
man who directs his work will not be able to control his actions.
"In schools of the religious way 'obedience' is demanded before anything
else, that is, full and unquestioning submission although without
understanding. Schools of the fourth way demand understanding before
anything else. Results of efforts are always proportional to understanding.
"Renunciation of his own decisions, subordination to the will of another,
may present insuperable difficulties to a man if he had failed to realize
beforehand that actually he neither sacrifices nor changes anything in his
life, that all his life he has been subject to some extraneous will and has
never had any decisions of his own. But a man is not conscious of this. He
considers that he has the right of free choice. It is hard for him to
renounce the illusion that he directs and organizes his life himself. But no
work on himself is possible until a man is free from this illusion.
"He must realize that he does not exist; he must realize that he can lose
nothing because he has nothing to lose; he must realize his 'nothingness' in
the full sense of the term.
"This consciousness of one's nothingness alone can conquer the fear of
subordination to the will of another. However strange it may seem, this fear
is actually one of the most serious obstacles on a man's path. A man is
afraid that he will be made to do things that are opposed to his principles,
views, and ideas. Moreover, this fear immediately creates in him. the
illusion that he really has principles, views, and convictions which in
reality he never has had and never could have. A man who has never in his
life thought of morality suddenly begins to fear that he will be made to do
something immoral. A man who has never thought of his health and who has
done everything possible to ruin it begins to fear that he will be made to
do something which will injure it. A man who has lied to everyone,
everywhere, all his life in the most barefaced manner begins suddenly to
fear that he will be made to tell lies, and so on without end. I knew a
drunkard who was afraid more than anything else that he would be made to
drink.
"The fear of being subordinated to another man's will very often proves
stronger than anything else. A man does not realize that a subordination to
which he consciously agrees is the only way to acquire a will of his own."
This exactly describes what happened to Ouspensky: "A man is afraid that he
will be made to do things that are opposed to his principles, views, and
ideas. Moreover, this fear immediately creates in him. the illusion that he
really has principles, views, and convictions which in reality he never has
had and never could have."
And based on this conviction, Ouspensky left Gurdjieff and set up his own
"school," when in fact, he never had the will to do anything, and the
evidence was his alcoholism. He literally drank himself to death.
But still, we have only danced around good and evil. I'm getting there. In
this next passage, we come very close to the main definition of "human"
evil:
Citer
"The study of the chief fault and the struggle against it constitute, as it
were, each man's individual path, but the aim must be the same for all. This
aim is the realization of one's nothingness. Only when a man has truly and
sincerely arrived at the conviction of his own helplessness and nothingness
and only when he feels it constantly, will he be ready for the next and much
more difficult stages of the work.
"All that has been said up till now refers to real groups connected with
real concrete work which in its turn is connected with what has been called
the 'fourth way.' But there are many imitation ways, imitation groups, and
imitation work. These are not even 'black magic.'
"Questions have often been asked at these lectures as to what is 'black
magic' and I have replied that there is neither red, green, nor yellow
magic. There is mechanics, that is, what 'happens,' and there is 'doing.'
'Doing' is magic and 'doing' can be only of one kind. There cannot be two
kinds of 'doing.' But there can be a falsification, an imitation of the
outward appearance of 'doing,' which cannot give any objective results but
which can deceive naive people and produce in them faith, infatuation,
enthusiasm, and even fanaticism.
"This is why in true work, that is, in true 'doing,' the producing of
infatuation in people is not allowed.
"What you call black magic is based on infatuation and on playing upon human
weaknesses.
"Black magic does not in any way mean magic of evil. I have already said
earlier that no one ever does anything for the sake of evil, in the
interests of evil. Everyone always does everything in the interests of good
as he understands it.
"In the same way it is quite wrong to assert that black magic must
necessarily be egoistical, that in black magic a man strives after some
results for himself. This is quite wrong. Black magic may be quite
altruistic, may strive after the good of humanity or after the salvation of
humanity from real or imaginary evils.
"But what can be called black magic has always one definite characteristic.
This characteristic is the tendency to use people for some, even the best of
aims, without their knowledge and understanding, either by producing in
them faith and infatuation or by acting upon them through fear."
In the next passage, Gurdjieff describes what has actually happened to his
own work, the many "schools" that have been created by his "annointed"
followers and their "students."
Citer
"But it must be remembered in this connection that a 'black magician,'
whether good or evil, has at all events been at a school. He has learned
something, has heard something, knows something. He is simply a 'half-
educated man' who has either been turned out of a school or who has himself
left a school having decided that he already knows enough, that he does not
want to be in subordination any longer, and that he can work independently
and even direct the work of others."
This pretty much describes Ouspensky and ALL of Gurdjieff's students!
Citer
"All 'work' of this kind can produce only subjective results, that is to
say, it can only increase deception and increase sleep instead of decreasing
them.
"Nevertheless something can be learned from a 'black magician' although in
the wrong way. He can sometimes by accident even tell the truth. That is why
I say that there are many things worse than 'black magic.' Such are various
'occult' and theosophical societies and groups. Not only have their
teachers never been at a school but they have never even met anyone who has
been near a school. Their work simply consists in aping. But imitation work
of this kind gives a great deal of self-satisfaction. One man feels himself
to be a 'teacher,' others feel that they are 'pupils,' and everyone is
satisfied. No realization of one's nothingness can be got here and if
people affirm that they have it, it is all illusion and self-deception, if
not plain deceit. On the contrary, instead of realizing their own
nothingness the members of such circles acquire a realization of their own
importance and a growth of false personality."
I'm sure you realize that the C's are very much a "school" and later
Gurdjieff describes exactly this sort of "initiation" as the ONLY kind of
initiation that is valid. Gurdjieff's initiation, I think, came via moving
center oriented events similar to the events I experienced with the C's via
the emotional and intellectual centers.
Citer
"At first it is very difficult to verify whether the work is right or
wrong, whether the directions received are correct or incorrect. The
theoretical part of the work may prove useful in this respect, because a man
can judge more easily from this aspect of it. He knows what he knows and
what he does not know.
"He knows what can be learned by ordinary means and what cannot."
This last is VERY important. A person must have done all they can do on
their own before they even seek out a "school." Otherwise, they cannot know
"what can be learned by ordinary means."
Citer
"And if he learns something new, something that cannot be learned in the
ordinary way from books and so on, this, to a certain extent, is a guarantee
that the other, the practical side, may also be right. But this of course
is far from being a full guarantee because here also mistakes are possible.
"All occult and spiritualistic societies and circles assert that they
possess a new knowledge. And there are people who believe it.
"In properly organized groups no faith is required; what is required is
simply a little trust and even that only for a little while, for the sooner
a man begins to verify all he hears the better it is for him.
"The struggle against the 'false I,' against one's chief feature or chief
fault, is the most important part of the work, and it must proceed in deeds,
not in words.
"For this purpose the teacher gives each man definite tasks which require,
in order to carry them out, the conquest of his chief feature. When a man
carries out these tasks he struggles with himself, works on himself. If he
avoids the tasks, tries not to carry them out, it means that either he does
not want to or that he cannot work.
"As a rule only very easy tasks are given at the beginning which the teacher
does not even call tasks, and he does not say much about them but gives
them in the form of hints. If he sees that he is understood and that the
tasks are carried out he passes on to more and more difficult ones.
"More difficult tasks, although they are only subjectively difficult, are
called 'barriers.'
"The peculiarity of barriers consists in the fact that, having surmounted a
serious barrier, a man can no longer return to ordinary sleep, to ordinary
life. And if, having passed the first barrier, he feels afraid of those that
follow and does not go on, he stops so to speak between two barriers and is
unable to move either backwards or forwards. This is the worst thing that
can happen to a man. Therefore the teacher is usually very careful in the
choice of tasks and barriers, in other words, he takes the risk of giving
definite tasks requiring the conquest of inner barriers only to those people
who have already shown themselves sufficiently strong on small barriers.
"It often happens that, having stopped before some barrier, usually the
smallest and the most simple, people turn against the work, against the
teacher, and against other members of the group, and accuse them of the very
thing that is becoming revealed to them in themselves."
As you may notice, this has happened with a number of our former members.
They stopped before the simplest and easiest barriers and have subsequently
turned against us, loudly and vehemently accusing us (usually me, who set up
the task) of the very things of which they, themselves, are guilty.
Citer
"Sometimes they repent later and blame themselves, then they again blame
others, then they repent once more, and so on. But there is nothing that
shows up a man better than his attitude towards the work and the teacher
after he has left it.
"Sometimes such tests are arranged intentionally. A man
is placed in such a position that he is obliged to leave and he is fully
justified in having a grievance either against the teacher or against some
other person. And then he is watched to see how he will behave. A decent man
will behave decently even if he thinks that he has been treated unjustly or
wrongly. But many people in such circumstances show a side of their nature
which otherwise they would never show. And at times it is a necessary means
for exposing a man's nature. So long as you are good to a man he is good to
you. But what will he be like if you scratch him a little?
"But this is not the chief thing; the chief thing is his own personal
attitude, his own valuation of the ideas which he receives or has received,
and his keeping or losing this valuation. A man may think for a long time
and quite sincerely that he wants to work and even make great efforts, and
then he may throw up everything and even definitely go against the work;
justify himself, invent various fabrications, deliberately ascribe a wrong
meaning to what he has heard, and so on."
"What happens to them for this?" asked one of the audience.
"Nothing—what could happen to them?" said G. "They are their own punishment.
And what punishment could be worse? [...]
The rest here:
https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,215.0.html
Laura and group!