Worry, anxiety and angsting

[RedFox]

Being somewhat of a chronic worrier in the past I though some discussion of worry might be useful.
It dove tails nicely with the thread on accepting your emotional/physical state 'as is'.
It will eat up your energy in minutes. You can get the energy back if you change your perspective.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/insight-therapy/201501/how-stop-worrying-and-get-your-life

How to Stop Worrying and Get on With Your Life
An expert explains why worries spiral out of control, and how to stop them.
Post published by Noam Shpancer Ph.D. on Jan 02, 2015 in Insight Therapy

“Worrying,” quipped Mark Twain, “is like paying a debt you don't owe.” {If you believe you are worthless, Not deserving of compassionate understanding and kindness, especially from yourself then 'paying a debt you don't owe' is pretty normal! The 'dept' is the belief you hold, and it is an energy drain} Worry features in many people’s lives. In mild form, occasional worry may serve a helpful coping function, getting us to think and plan ahead. At higher volume and frequency, worry can become annoying and distracting, and may undermine our productivity, concentration, and mood. At extremely high levels, chronic worry can derail your life. Such worry also constitutes the central symptom of a common psychological disorder, Generalized Anxiety Disorder (link is external) (GAD).

GAD runs in families and appears to have a substantial genetic component (link is external). It is often diagnosed together with depression (link is external) and other anxiety disorders. This is why some psychologists believe it represents an underlying constitutional vulnerability, a general "anxious apprehension" process that may at times manifest itself through different specific fears, such as fears of certain objects (specific phobia), of social judgment (social phobia), of physiological arousal symptoms (panic disorder), or of troubling thoughts and images (OCD).

Worry is a devious foe for several reasons. First, people who worry a lot most often see their worries come to naught. In other words, most imagined catastrophic scenarios don’t actually materialize. One would think that a system (worry) that constantly fails at its job (predicting the future) would be abandoned. Instead, the opposite usually happens. This is because our brains tend to confuse correlation with causation. In this case, since worry is associated with things turning out OK, worriers begin to believe that it is the worry what made things turn out OK—which is in fact false; research shows that worry hinders rather than facilitates effective problem solving. Hence, worriers tend to increase their worrying in response to their failed predictions of catastrophe. Over time, worry morphs from a habit into a requirement born of superstition. {It should be noted that this can stem from avoiding feelings of powerlessness, vulnerability and generally seeing 'needing help from others' as weak}

In addition, research has suggested that although worry is associated with health and coping problems in the long term, it tends to decrease physiological (fight-or-flight) arousal in the short term. In this way, worrying works somewhat like an addictive drug—it provides short term stress relief through avoidance and is hence experienced as rewarding. Since our brain is wired to privilege short term rewards, a worry cycle is easily established that is as difficult to break as drug addiction. Like a drug, worry itself over time becomes a bigger problem than whatever concerns it ostensibly addresses. {Balancing brain chemicals can help greatly with any addiction, see the mood cure}

Another difficulty is that for those who have developed the habit of continual worry, the experience of not worrying is novel and disconcerting. As such, it becomes a source of worry in itself: “Why am I not worried? Something must be wrong with me!” Old habits die hard, and even after they die, they often hang around as scary ghosts.

Still, when worry becomes chronic, frightening, and debilitating we may be moved to do something about it. In the past, thought suppression techniques were advanced as one solution. The evidence, however, suggests that thought suppression (link is external) is an ineffective way to deal with constant worry, and may have the ironic effect of magnifying worry and its influence. Instead of suppressing, denying, or trying to avoid those nagging thoughts, it is more useful to engage them in conversation, where they may be more closely examined in the light of real world evidence. {Trying to suppress acknowledgment of thoughts and feelings in my experience never works and does make them stronger - it depletes Will and energy when a more balanced approach wastes no energy fighting yourself. This leaves Will power available in order to choose to act.}

In this context, research by David Barlow and others (link is external) has identified two main cognitive distortions that characterize worry. First, worry tends to involve an “overestimation bias,” whereby the odds of the worried-about scenario materializing are invariably imagined to be high. In other words, the "voice of worry" ignores actual probabilities and always predicts imminence. Second, worry involves a “catastrophizing bias,” whereby the consequences of the worried-about scenario are imagined to be negative in the extreme. The voice of worry ignores gradations and always predicts the absolute worst. {black and white thinking, which is a sign that the mind is operating in 'danger mode' and is likely fighting off 'dangerous emotions'}

While worried-about scenarios tend to appear in our minds as both imminent and extremely bad, in real life not all scenarios are bad, and even bad scenarios are not always imminent and/or extreme. This distinction matters, because living necessarily requires taking on low probability risk, every single day. For example, when you step into the shower in the morning, you may slip and break your neck. But most people still take on the risk. Why? Because the odds of it actually happening are low. Accurately calculating whether the odds of something happening are high or low is crucial to our daily decision-making. In general, low-probability risk scenarios are disregarded so that we can go about our daily business. High-probability risk scenarios may be defended against, or avoided. {Are you a worrier or anxious? Find that you can't start projects or posts? That's because the risk has been labeled 'catastrophic' and so the action is avoided}

Similarly, not all negative eventualities in life are extreme. In fact, extreme catastrophes are rare. (If they were common, then they would not in all likelihood be considered extreme.) An event’s level of impact makes a difference in the real world—getting hit by a bullet is different from being hit by a paint ball.

Given the distorted tendency of the voice of worry to make all risks appear likely and catastrophic, and given the real life importance of estimating the actual likelihood and severity of risks, the internal conversation regarding worry should include two main questions:

1) How likely is it, really? This question addresses the error of overestimation. An honest consideration of the actual odds that the negative scenario will materialize will help us distinguish justified, useful concern (high odds) from unjustified, useless worry (low odds).
2) How bad is it, really? (link is external) This question addresses the error of catastrophizing. It helps us consider the evidence in distinguishing the extreme, real threat (a bullet) from the non-extreme, benign threat (a paint ball).
Now, these two questions, considered in tandem, may be represented in a 2 x 2 matrix of the kind psychologists love to draw:

{A note here, if you are unable to extract yourself from worry in order to analyse it you need tools and practice in order to do so. Practicing body awareness is the first place to begin, as it 'takes you out of your mind'. Yoga and massage are useful for this. You may also need to balance your brain chemicals.}

As seen in the table, three of the four cells constitute good news. Specifically, an event that is imminent but mundane (2) need not be terribly bothersome. Such events are not the end of the world; they are just the world. An event that is catastrophic but unlikely (3) may also be disregarded—as such events must be in the course of pursuing our most basic daily tasks, unless we’re willing to go without bathing forever. And clearly, an unlikely mundane event (4) is of no concern at all. Once your worries are fleshed out and evaluated, it becomes clear that, contrary to the distortions inherent in the voice of worry, most high likelihood events are not terrible, and most terrible events are not likely.

Now, it is important to emphasize that in engaging the inner conversation with our voice of worry, we are not looking to counter negative thoughts with positive thoughts. Instead, we are looking to counter inaccurate thoughts with accurate thoughts; to replace lies with truths. {Right here we see a very practical example of the Work we can do on ourselves, perhaps with the help of objective feedback from others} Therefore, we must accept the possibility that once in a long while we will face an imminent and catastrophic event (1). That’s life. But recognizing that life is fragile and fleeting is, if anything, a very good reason to forsake needless worrying and start living.

To paraphrase Charles Darwin, anyone who dares to waste one hour of time worrying has not discovered the value of life.

Having read all that, how many of you are now worrying about worrying?
If so, you need to be treating it like an addiction and using mindful elf compassion and balancing brain chemicals to change things.

http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2013/04/03/how-to-stop-worrying-about-worrying/

How to Stop Worrying about Worrying By Therese J. Borchard
Associate Editor

Sir Winston Churchill, who battled plenty of demons, once said, “When I look back on all these worries, I remember the story of the old man who said on his deathbed that he had a lot of trouble in his life, most of which had never happened.”

Unfortunately that advice wouldn’t have been able to stop me from praying rosary after rosary when I was in fourth grade to avert going to hell, nor does it quiet the annoying noise and chatter inside my brain today in any given hour. But the fact that a great leader battled the worry war does provide me some consolation.

It doesn’t matter whether you are a chronic worrier without an official diagnosis or battling severe obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), a neurobehavioral disorder that involves repetitive unwanted thoughts and rituals. The steps to overcome faulty beliefs and develop healthy patterns of thinking are the same.

Worrying about facing the inferno as a 10-year-old and fretting about whether or not I’ll provide enough income to keep my kids in private school stems from the same brain abnormality that Jeffrey M. Schwartz, M.D. describes in his book, Brain Lock.

When we worry, the use of energy is consistently higher than normal in the orbital cortex, the underside of the front of the brain. It’s working overtime, heating up, which is exactly what is the PET scans show. Too many “what if’s” and your orbital cortex as shown in a PET scan will light up in beautiful neon colors, like the walls of my daughter’s bedroom. However, with repeated cognitive-behavioral exercises, you can cool it down and return your PET scan to the boring black and white.

In their book, The OCD Workbook, Bruce M. Hyman, Ph.D., and Cherry Pedrick, RN, explain the ABCDs of faulty beliefs. It’s a four-step cycle of insanity:

A = Activity Event and Intrusive Thought, Image or Urge. (What if I didn’t lock the door? What if I upset her? I know I upset her.)

B = Faulty Belief About the Intrusive Thought. (If I don’t say the rosary, I’m going to hell. If I made a mistake in my presentation, I will get fired.)

C = Emotional Consequences: Anxiety, Doubt, and Worry. (I am a horrible person for upsetting her. I keep making mistakes … I will never be able to keep a job. I hate myself.)

D = Neutralizing Ritual or Avoidance. (I need to say the rosary to insure I’m not going to hell. I should avoid my friend who I upset and my boss so that he can’t tell me I’m fired.)

{Right here we can see that the pattern of 'worry' is about avoiding 'potential future pain' - and underneath that it's actually about avoiding emotional pain. Worrying may give you enough of a chemical hit to the brain to temporarily alleviate emotional pain}

Those might seem extreme for the casual worrier, but the small seed of anxiety doesn’t stay small for long in a person with an overactive orbital cortex.

Hyman and Pedrick also catalog some typical cognitive errors of worriers and persons with OCD:

* Overestimating risk, harm, and danger
* Overcontrol and perfectionism
* Catastrophizing
* Black-and-white or all-or-nothing thinking
* Persistent doubting
* Magical thinking
* Superstitious thinking
* Intolerance of uncertainty
* Over-responsibility
* Pessimistic bias
* What-if thinking
* Intolerance of anxiety
* Extraordinary cause and effect

One of the best approaches to manage a case of the worries and/or OCD is the four-step self-treatment method by Schwartz, explained in Brain Lock,

Step 1: Relabel.

In this step you squeeze a bit of distance between the thought and you. By relabeling the bugger as “MOT” (my obsessive thought) or something like that, you take back control and prevent yourself from being tricked by the message. {If you identify with it you are lost in the thought loops, so 'step back' and see it as 'part of you' but not All of you} Because I’ve always suffered from OCD, I remind myself that the illogical thought about which I’m fretting is my illness talking, that I’m not actually going insane.

Step 2: Reattribute.

Here is where you remember the PET scan that would look like your brain. By considering that colorful picture, you take the problem from your emotional center to your physiological being. This helps me immensely because I feel less attached to it and less a failure for being able to tame and keep it under control. Just like arthritis that is flaring up, I consider my poor, overworked orbital cortex, and I put some ice on it and remember to be gentle with myself.

Step 3: Refocus.

If it’s at all possible, turn your attention to some other activity that can distract you from the anxiety. Schwartz says: “By refusing to take the obsessions and compulsions at face value—by keeping in mind that they are not what they say they are, that they are false messages—you can learn to ignore or to work around them by refocusing your attention on another behavior and doing something useful and positive.”
{Remember that blocking things out doesn't necessarily help, but you need to have control of your emotional center and over-reactive brain in order to be able to face things}

Step 4: Revalue.

This involves calling out the unwanted thoughts and giving yourself a pep talk on why you want to do everything you can to free yourself from the prison of obsessive thinking. You are basically devaluing the worrying as soon as it tries to intrude.

http://tinybuddha.com/blog/overcoming-approval-addiction-stop-worrying-people-think/

Overcoming Approval Addiction: Stop Worrying About What People Think
By Derek Doepker

“What you think of me is none of my business.” ~Wayne Dyer

Do you ever worry about what people think about you?

Have you ever felt rejected and gotten defensive if someone criticized something you did?

Are there times where you hold back on doing something you know would benefit yourself and even others because you’re scared about how some people may react?

If so, consider yourself normal. The desire for connection and to fit in is one of the six basic human needs according to the research of Tony Robbins and Cloe Madanes. Psychologically, to be rejected by “the tribe” represents a threat to your survival. {So worry is 'planning ahead' to ensure your survival! Except it leaves you paralyzed.}

This begs the question: “If wanting people’s approval is natural and healthy, is it always a good thing?”

Imagine for a moment what life would be like if you didn’t care about other people’s opinions. Would you be self-centered and egotistical, or would you be set free to live a life fulfilling your true purpose without being held back by a fear of rejection?
{If you free up Will power from fighting with yourself, you have more Will to be able to choose what you want to do}

For my entire life I’ve wrestled with caring about other people’s opinions.

I thought this made me selfless and considerate. While caring about the opinion of others helped me put myself into other people’s shoes, I discovered that my desire, or more specifically my attachment to wanting approval, had the potential to be one of my most selfish and destructive qualities.

Why Approval Addiction Makes Everyone Miserable

If wanting the approval of others is a natural desire, how can it be a problem? The problem is that, like any drug, the high you get from getting approval eventually wears off. If having the approval of others is the only way you know how to feel happy, then you’re going to be miserable until you get your next “fix.”

What this means is that simply wanting approval isn’t the problem. The real issue is being too attached to getting approval from others as the only way to feel fulfilled. To put it simply, addiction to approval puts your happiness under the control of others.

Because their happiness depends on others, approval addicts can be the most easily manipulated. I often see this with unhealthy or even abusive relationships. All an abuser has to do is threaten to make the approval addict feel rejected or like they’re being selfish, and they’ll stay under the abuser’s spell.

Approval addiction leads to a lack of boundaries and ultimately resentment. Many times I felt resentment toward others because they crossed my boundaries, and yet I would remain silent. I didn’t want to come across as rude for speaking up about how someone upset me.

The problem is this would lead to pent up resentment over time, because there’s a constant feeling that people should just “know better.” When I took an honest look at the situation, though, I had to consider whose fault it was if resentment built up because my boundaries were crossed.

Is it the fault of the person who unknowingly crossed those boundaries, or the person who failed to enforce boundaries out of fear of rejection?

Looking at my own life, I actually appreciate when someone I care about lets me know I’ve gone too far. It gives me a chance to make things right. If I don’t let others know how they’ve hurt me because of fear of rejection, aren’t I actually robbing them of the opportunity to seek my forgiveness and do better?

This leads me to my final point, approval addiction leads to being selfish. The deception is that the selfishness is often disguised and justified as selflessness.

As a writer, I’m exposed to critics. If I don’t overcome a desire for wanting approval from everyone, then their opinions can stop me from sharing something incredibly helpful with those who’d benefit from my work.

Approval addiction is a surefire way to rob the world of your gifts. How selfish is it to withhold what I have to offer to others all because I’m thinking too much about what some people may think of me?

As strange as it sounds, doing things for others can be selfish. On an airplane, they say to put the oxygen mask on yourself before putting it on a child. This is because if the adult passes out trying to help the child, both are in trouble.

In much the same way, approval addiction can lead a person to martyr themselves to the point that everyone involved suffers.

For instance, if a person spends so much time helping others that they neglect their own health, then in the long run, it may be everyone else who has to take care of them when they get sick, causing an unnecessary burden.

Selfless acts, done at the expense of one’s greater priorities, can be just as egotistical and destructive as selfish acts.

How to Overcome Approval Addiction

The first way to overcome approval addiction is to be gentle with yourself. Wanting to feel connected with others is normal. It’s only an issue when it’s imbalanced with other priorities like having boundaries.

What approval addicts are often missing is self-approval. We all have an inner critic that says things like, “You’re not good enough. You’re nothing compared to these people around you. If you give yourself approval, you’re being selfish.”

You can’t get rid of this voice. What you can do is choose whether or not to buy into it or something greater.

You also have a part of yourself that says, “You’re worthy. You’re good enough. You’re just as valuable as anyone else.” The question becomes: “Which voice do I choose to align to?”

This often means asking yourself questions like, “Can I give myself some approval right now? What is something I appreciate about myself?” The next step is to then be willing to actually allow yourself to receive that approval.

To break approval addiction, remember to treat yourself the way you want others to treat you.

In much the same way, you can overcome approval addiction by equally valuing other important things, such as your need for significance and control. While wanting to control things can be taken too far just like wanting approval, it is the Yang to approval-seeking’s Yin. Both are necessary for balance.

Questions that typically help me are: “Do I want other people’s opinions to have power over me? Would I rather let this person control me or maintain control over my own life?” {Or your own inner critic and worries that are stopping you from acting?}

Finally, there is the ultimate key to overcoming approval addiction. It’s by using the greatest motivator— unconditional love.

Worrying about what other people think masquerades as love. In reality, when you really love someone, you’re willing to have their disapproval.

Imagine a parent with a child. If the parent is too concerned about the child’s opinion of them, they might not discipline their child for fear of the child disliking them.

Have you ever seen a parent who lets their child get away with anything because they don’t want to be the “bad guy?” Is this truly loving? {Consider this dynamic internally, do you get angry and hate yourself for not having will power - yet won't have an honest conversation with yourself?}

To break approval addiction, I realized I had to ask one of the most challenging questions anyone could ask themselves: Am I willing to love this person enough to have them hate me?

If you really care for someone, telling them, “You’re screwing up your life” and having them feel the pain of that statement might be the most loving thing you can do.

This comes with the very real possibility they will reject you for pointing out the truth. However, if you love someone, wouldn’t you rather have them go through a little short-term pain in order to save them a lot of pain down the road? {This includes yourself!}

On the upside, many people will eventually come to appreciate you more in the long term if you’re willing to be honest with them and prioritize your love for them over your desire for their approval.

If you have to share a harsh truth, a mentor, Andy Benjamin, taught me that you can make this easier by first asking, “Can I be a true friend?” to let them know what you’re about to say is coming from a place of love.

—

I’ve found that everything, including the desire for approval, can serve or enslave you depending on how you respond to it.

Do you use your desire for approval as a force to help you see things from other people’s perspective, or do you use it as a crutch on which you base your happiness?

Do you use your desire for approval as a reminder to give yourself approval, or do you use it as an excuse to be miserable when others don’t give you approval?

Finally, are you willing show the ultimate demonstration of genuine love—sacrificing your desire for approval in order to serve another?

 

[mabar]

Thanks RedFox, is a post that need to read calmly at home, I did read quickly and begun making comments in my mind from your embedded comments, that at one point was like "the predator" fighting back this useful information, so I made a halt.

This "Worry, anxiety and angsting" is something that had been hunting me since I remember, it is a daily struggle, sometimes I am able to strike it back, it does feel quite nice to not carry such feelings, but sometimes one/I need more tools to fight it back.

 

[tohuwabohu]

Very nice compilation and very helpful indeed.

Most of the things are very easy to be understood. One can even wonder why we worry so much about useless stuff or about things we can't control.

 

[loreta]

Yes, thank you! I will put this article in my little Kindle and read it with attention. I am a very "worrier" person, almost chronic. I always think that I am right to be worry. But maybe I am wrong :)

 

[RedFox]

Something else I think I should add - Worry vs Love
I know from personal experience and hearing from others that we assume worry Is love, and that if we don't worry about others (and if others don't worry about us) it's not love.
The thing that finally made me see it was seeing how patronizing my worry was towards others - it says 'without my worry (for you) you are helpless'.
It's also a form of martyring ones self. 'Can't you see how much I love you, by how much I suffer on your behalf?'

Both of these tend to come down to desperately Not wanting to feel helpless/not incontrol and/or alone. As with all emotion, they are part of life.

I can look back and see that as a chronic worrier, hearing this will feel immensely painful (because worriers are generally emotionally sensitive).

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-myth-stress/201005/why-worrying-isnt-sign-love

Why Worrying Isn't a Sign of Love
How to disentangle worry from love. Post published by Andrew Bernstein on May 24, 2010 in The Myth of Stress

"It's a terrible thing, what she's been through; what she's still going through—it could come back at anytime."

A friend and I were at a party for M., who was celebrating her recovery from cancer. If worrying were an Olympic sport, my friend would show Michael Phelps a thing or two. She worries about herself. She worries about her friends. She worries about people she will never meet (note to Tom Cruise's children: She worries about you.)

For my friend and millions of people like her, worry is a sign of love. It says that, even though I am okay, I am selfless enough to suffer vicariously for you. And isn't that the definition of love? Wouldn't it be uncaring not to feel terrible for others, given what some people have to deal with?

At the risk of giving worriers everywhere nothing to do, the answer is no.

Take the example of M., diagnosed with cancer. Let's say you love her. So what do you do? You call, you offer to help, you visit with chicken soup and DVD's and good cheer. You ask what else you can do, and M. says, "Nothing, thank you for asking. I have everything I need." You tell M. to call you if she thinks of anything else, and you check in with her regularly, sending little messages, aware of her just as you're aware of the other people you care about as you return to happily doing whatever it is you do. That's love.

Here's another version.

M. is diagnosed with cancer. So what do you do? You call, full of pity that you try to disguise but not disguise too much because you want her to know, after all, that your heart is breaking for her. You offer to help with her awful situation. You bring chicken soup and DVD's and so much worry that it fills the room. You ask what else you can do, and M. says, "Nothing, thank you for asking. I have everything I need." Nonsense, you think. She's pretending to be strong. {Because the worrier is projecting there own internal state of 'I can't even consider feeling that helpless - I would have to put on such a brave face whilst I was dying inside from that feeling'} With meaningful glances and pregnant sighs, you make sure everyone around you knows how absolutely terrible the situation is, and you spend every waking minute consumed by thoughts of M.'s unfortunate plight, hoping that other people you love don't have the same terrible experience, hoping that you don't have to bear the unbearable cross now sitting on M.'s weakened shoulders.

Some people will defend the second version saying that it's more compassionate, that it's more human, and that seeing difficult circumstances without a negative emotional reaction would be an act of cold denial. {Defending a position is a sign of black and white thinking. Considering not worrying as hurting or rejecting the other person Is black and white thinking. And black and white thinking generally comes from emotional pain you don't know how to handle.} To the contrary, I think that seeing life as you believe it "should" be or is going to be is the act of denial. Seeing life as it is is an act of compassion. And when you see life this way, it opens you up to be human in a way that is far more sustainable and kind.

There are compelling reasons to do this. First, worrying about others has a very real effect on your own body. The more you worry, the more you throw off the delicate balance of hormones required for health. The word worry comes from the Old High German word wurgen which means to strangle. Worrisome thoughts and their resulting feelings are a form of self strangulation. They not only strangle your emotions. They affect your physical life as well, and your ability to focus and get things done. {And what happens if you need to act to help the person you are worrying about, but can't because your worrying has stopped you acting through draining Will? You come face to face with that feeling of helplessness you've been fighting to avoid and your world implodes into despair and depression.}

And if your own strangulation isn't enough, those on the other side of your worry may experience choking too. When I first shared ActivInsight with cancer patients, I was surprised to learn that after a while some of them weren't too bothered by their diagnoses - they were following their protocols and staying focused on recovering. If they had fears about the future, they could work on "I know I'm going to die" and bring their minds back to the real world. But their families' constant worrying was a bigger problem. Even though other people have no power to disturb our emotions, it can sure seem like they do, and a life full of well-meaning worriers is a burden many people would rather not carry. {Which brings the worrier face to face with being alone/rejected, which again they are fighting desperately to avoid feeling.}

Consider, too, the larger subtext of what worry says. When you worry about someone else, you teach them that things aren't going to be okay, that something bad is taking place, that the situation is inherently stressful. {Worrying adds stress to yourself and those you are worrying about!} Instead of giving them a model of someone who meets life as it is -— even as you work to improve it in any way possible — you become someone who rejects life in the name of some imaginary future, and in that very act of rejection, you teach misery. All of this, of course, is done innocently and with the best intentions, simply because you believe worry is love. But it isn't.

When a friend is sick, I see the situation for what it is, not what it isn't, and I offer to help as much as she wants, not as much as I want. And when I'm not there, I know that she'll turn to me if she wants more help {Again the worrier is projecting here, because they feel they can't reach out for help. That they can't easily receive help. Therefore the Only help they could expect is that of Worry - worry pushes and invades and is always there, so gets past the 'not being able to reach out' and 'not being able to receive'} or compassion or DVD's or just someone to talk to, because I can give that to her without projecting my own imagination onto her reality. If she doesn't call, she simply doesn't need me, which I take as a very good sign.

But if I can't yet see the situation for what it is, it's time to explore topics such as, "She shouldn't be sick." "Sickness is bad." "I know what's going to happen." "If I don't feel bad for her, it means I don't love her." Identifying and challenging these thoughts heals the disease of my own mind — my worry — and makes me better able to care for myself and others.

And if I'm the person who is sick and I want other people to worry for me, I would take a closer look at that: "I want people to be worried for me," "If they're not worrying, it means they don't love me." Or, if I want them to stop worrying, "They shouldn't worry so much." Either way, once I've had an insight, I'm going to have a conversation with my loved ones so that we can all learn to disentangle worry and love. This isn't about becoming an ascetic. I may want you to hold my hand! But that can happen with genuine caring and affection, without the sense of misery or doom. {The worrier may sense there doom and gloom, so will also try and hide it!}

This experience of worry-free love isn't something you come to through philosophy or intention. It doesn't happen simply because you like the sound of it. It has to be gained through insight. Worry is an act of relative peak intelligence based on mistaken assumptions. As those assumptions are seen through, belief by belief, insight by insight, an even higher peak intelligence unfolds.

Then it becomes clear that love cares, love listens, love empathizes, love goes out of its way to do anything asked of it. But love doesn't worry. Worry is a byproduct of confusion. If you love someone and feel worried about them (or yourself), you are loving in spite of your worry, not because of it. Find the beliefs that are strangling your feelings, challenge them* for your sake as well as theirs, and see how it feels to love someone without a thought about the future, simply for who they are today.

 

[kalibex]

Hunh. RedFox, these are POVs I haven't encountered before today. Thank you for these new perspectives.

Especially:

If you love someone and feel worried about them (or yourself), you are loving in spite of your worry, not because of it.

 

[RedFox]

Hunh. RedFox, these are POVs I haven't encountered before today. Thank you for these new perspectives.

Especially:

If you love someone and feel worried about them (or yourself), you are loving in spite of your worry, not because of it.

There are a lot of POVs that have taken a long time to collect, that I never encountered before either.
If one thing is for sure, learning to question our POV free's us from these self sustained prisons of suffering.

To quote my favorite sci-fi program (hopefully it's not too cheesy):

https://youtu.be/VhD0hbGEDSU

Delenn: The universe puts us into places where we can learn. They are never easy places, but they are right. Wherever we are is the right place and the right time. The pain that sometimes comes is part of the process of constantly being born.

Capt. John Sheridan: I wish I had your faith in the universe. I just don't see it sometimes.
Delenn: Then I will tell you a great secret, Captain. Perhaps the greatest of all time. The molecules of your body are the same molecules that make up this station, and the nebula outside, that burn inside the stars themselves. We are starstuff. We are the universe made manifest, trying to figure itself out. And as we have both learned, sometimes the universe requires a change of perspective.

So one last step when it comes to 'worrying', and what else it may say about work that needs to be done on the self.
Remembering that it may all be driven by a brain chemical imbalance/addiction, is shaped by upbringing and should be healed with compassion and understanding - rather than more worry as a buffer to facing these things.

“To what extent do you agree with this statement: “I am a narcissist.” (Note: The word “narcissist” means egotistical, self-focused, and vain.)”

Rate yourself on a scale of 1 to 7 where 1 is “not very true of me” and 7 is “very true of me”.

If I'm dissociated (or inflamed) then it's a 7.
When I'm not it can vary, but probably 5-6.
On a rare occasion I'll understand deeply how someone else feels about something, so rarely a 4.

6 would be my average I think.

As for the quiz:

Your Total: 3

Between 12 and 15 is average.
Celebrities often score closer to 18.
Narcissists score over 20.

Narcissistic Trait
Authority: 2.00
Self-Sufficiency: 1.00
Superiority: 0.00
Exhibitionism: 0.00
Exploitativeness: 0.00
Vanity: 0.00
Entitlement: 0.00

So how do those two mesh? The quiz asks a lot about inflated self image (that is expressed externally) and interactions with others (control/dominance of others).
I'm narcissistic by avoiding people/responsibility/life.
By hiding and not getting involved. By being self effacing and 'not caring' what I look like. By having a deflated self image (victim). By bypassing others and doing it all myself (perfectionism, which potentially is a superiority complex as those who are not perfectionist "can't do things as well as me").
All the narcissistic rage etc gets internalized and directed at myself. I control and dominate myself.
Rather than being "greater than others", I am "less than others (and that makes me 'special', because no one could possibly understand!)".
Rather than "Everyone adores me" it's "Everyone rejects me". Vanity in 'self hatred' rather than 'self love'.

It's taken a very long time to see that in myself. I couldn't see any hint of narcissism in me before then, in fact to me I appeared to be the complete opposite of everything described as narcissistic.

The following is the extreme version, of which I have shades of:

http://thenarcissisticlife.com/the-inverted-mirror-narcissist/

The Inverted (Mirror) Narcissist
Written by Alexander Burgemeester on February 2, 2014 · 8 Comments
Can a narcissist’s partner also be a narcissist? Many partners who have stayed with their narcissist have questioned whether they themselves were selfishly staying with him or her (because they liked the fame, success, wealth, etc). Many individuals who do stay with a narcissist- but not all- tend to be codependents. One specific type of codependent is, indeed, a narcissist. They are called ‘covert narcissists’, ‘inverted’ or ‘mirror’ narcissists, or ‘narcissist- codependent’ or even an “N-magnet” (narcissist magnet). Inverted narcissists are codependents who emotionally depend exclusively on classic narcissists. Narcissists and inverted narcissists are, in many ways, two sides of the same coin, or “the mold and the molded” (Sam Vaknin) – hence the terms “mirror narcissist” or “inverted narcissist”. Inverted narcissists are much rarer and harder to identify than the boastful, arrogant “classic” narcissist. Surprisingly for a narcissist, the inverted type is self-effacing and/or introverted. Let’s take a closer look at what we mean by some of these terms.

Codependents

Codependents are people who depend on other people for their emotional gratification. They are usually needy, demanding, and subservient. Like the classic narcissist, they fear abandonment. They tend to be clingy and will engage in immature behaviors to maintain this “relationship”. Codependents will stay with their partners despite whatever abuse is inflicted upon them. Also like the classic narcissist, they seek to control their partner; they do this through being an eager victim.
Codependency refers to excessive and unhealthy caretaking behavior or feelings. This doesn’t just occur with narcissists but also with partners of alcoholics, drug, sex, or other addicts. Codependents often play the role of martyr. They persistently put others’ needs before their own and are not likely to take care of their own needs. This makes them feel “needed”. Codependents are also likely to set themselves up as the “victim”, especially in arguments or disagreements. On occasion, they do stand up for themselves but are then wracked with guilt.

Inverted Narcissist

The classic narcissist has ‘overt’ or obvious/unconcealed behavior. The inverted narcissist has ‘covert’ or concealed narcissistic behavior. The inverted narcissist is a type of codependent who depends exclusively on narcissists. Sam Vaknin, author of Malignant Self-Love, describes the inverted narcissist this way:

To “qualify” as an inverted narcissist, you must CRAVE to be in a relationship with a narcissist, regardless of any abuse inflicted on you by him/her. You must ACTIVELY seek relationships with narcissists and ONLY with narcissists, no matter what your (bitter and traumatic) past experience has been. You must feel EMPTY and UNHAPPY in relationships with ANY OTHER kind of person.

Inverted or ‘covert’ narcissists are “intensely attuned to others’ needs, but only in so far as it relates to [their] own need to perform the requisite sacrifice“. An inverted narcissist makes certain that in true martyr fashion, they will readily provide unlimited supplies of gratitude, love and attention as well as caretaking that is almost compulsive in nature. Vaknin theorized that “the inverted narcissist is a person who grew up enthralled by the narcissistic parent … the child becomes a masterful provider of Narcissistic Supply, a perfect match to the parent’s personality.”

On a day to day basis, the inverted narcissist is extremely shy, introverted and uncomfortable with any attention being paid to him or her. He or she has extreme feelings of inadequacy and low self-esteem as indicated by:

• Possesses a rigid sense of lack of self-worth.
• Lacks empathy. Is intensely attuned to others’ needs, but only in so far as it relates to his/her own need to perform the required self-sacrifice, which in turn is necessary in order to obtain Narcissistic Supply from the primary narcissist.
• Feels that he/she is undeserving and not entitled.
• Is selfless, sacrificial, even groveling in her interpersonal relationships and avoids the assistance of others at all costs. Can only interact with others when she can be seen to be giving, supportive, and expending an unusual effort to assist.
• Pre-occupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance and beauty or of an ideal of love.
• Believes that he or she is absolutely un-unique and un-special and that no one at all could understand her because she is innately unworthy of being understood.
• Displays extreme shyness, lack of any real relational connections, is publicly self-effacing in the extreme, is internally highly moralistic and critical of others; is a perfectionist and engages in lengthy ritualistic behaviors, which can never be perfectly performed
• Envies others. Cannot conceive of being envied and becomes extremely agitated and uncomfortable if even brought into a situation where comparison might occur. Loathes competition and avoids competition at all costs
• Demands anonymity (in the sense of seeking to remain excluded at all costs) and is intensely irritated and uncomfortable with any attention being paid to him/her

Do they also have narcissistic rages?

Like the classic narcissist, the inverted narcissist will indeed react with narcissistic rage to what they perceive as threats or narcissistic injury. The inverted narcissist may respond with rage whenever her lack of self-worth is threatened, when envious of other’s achievements or happiness, or when her sense of self-worthlessness is diminished by a behavior/ comment/event. Thus, this type of narcissist might react angrily to good things: a kind remark, a successful accomplishment, a reward, or a compliment. They might also rage when they believe that they have failed or are imperfect, useless and worthless.
During their rage, the inverted narcissist can become verbally and emotionally abusive. He or she ruthlessly attacks her victim but then immediately goes into an unbelievable calm, described as “thundering silence”. The inverted narcissists then regret their behavior and apologize profusely. They gather these negative emotions and use them as weapons for further self-destruction. “It is from this repressed self-contempt and sadistic self-judgment that the narcissistic rage springs forth”.

Relationship with the Narcissist

Although inverted narcissists can have non-narcissists as friends, significant relationships are only with other narcissists. These relationships are usually spousal relationships but can also be significant friendships with other narcissists.
In a love relationship, the inverted narcissist attempts to re-create the parent-child relationship. By mirroring back the narcissist’s own grandiosity, the inverted narcissist obtains his/her own Narcissistic Supply (which is the narcissist’s dependence on them).
The inverted narcissist ensures that the narcissist is happy, cared for, adored, and has plenty of Narcissistic Supply. They suffer narcissistic devaluation with poise and composure. They handle narcissistic rage by managing every last detail in their environment, closely supervising and controlling all situations, so that they minimize the inevitable narcissistic rages of their narcissist.
The inverted narcissist only feels loved in a relationship where their life is totally engulfed by the narcissist. They are not likely to abandon the relationship with the narcissist. The relationship usually doesn’t end unless the narcissist decides the inverted narcissist is no longer useful, and refuses to supply him/her with any more Narcissistic Supply. Only then does the inverted narcissist halfheartedly move on to another relationship.

In the end (excluding the psychopathic side of things - those that are incapable of feeling empathy) these behaviors all stem from brain/psychological development getting 'stuck'. They require an understanding of that in order to be accepted without feeling annihilated. Or for them not to be completely ignored or turned into rage against the self or others.
Learning to see both the good and the bad in the shades and flavors they appear is most important, and that needs compassion and empathy for yourself as well as others.

Worrying can be a form/sign of covert narcicism

The common thread seems to be a black and white (and generally distorted, unrealistic/unchallenged) view of the world, basic interactions, self worth and emotional sensitivity.

Seeing things clearly means knowing where they come from in order to take the 'overwhelm' out of the equation.

http://sfhelp.org/gwc/wounds.htm

Each wound has unmistakable behavioral symptoms. Since I learned to look for them, I've seen significant wound-symptoms in over 80% of the many hundreds of average students and therapy clients I've worked with since 1981. I've also seen symptoms in many of my professional human-service colleagues. Not one person could name these six wounds or describe what they mean. This demonstrates the second component of an epidemic toxic parental bequest in typical cultures - unawareness..

These wounds amplify each other. Without informed intervention, they and unawareness pass on to the next generation.

Here's an overview of the...

Six Inherited Psychological Wounds

Other Lesson-1 articles give much more detail on these wounds, what they mean, and how to reduce them.

* a fragmented personality and a disabled true Self. This promotes...
* excessive shame and guilts;
* excessive fears;
* major trust disorders;
* excessive reality distortions; and...
* difficulty feeling, empathizing, bonding, and loving.

[..]
False-self dominance causes up to five other psychological wounds: [..]

3) Excessive ("irrational") anxiety, fears, and terrors of criticism, rejections, abandonment, the unknown, failure (in someone's view), success, and/or intense emotions (e.g. confusion, overwhelm, intimacy, and interpersonal conflict. Typical symptoms: compulsive worrying, chronic hesitance, doubt, and timidity, excessive caution, difficulty making decisions, relationship addiction, (codependence) or excessive independence and social isolation ("distancing").

All the chronic worriers I know tend to fall into the above highlighted section to some degree.
Practicing self compassion is the best way through this (being able to see in shades of gray), as it allows things to heal.
In some cases you may need outside support in order to feel safe enough with yourself to learn to see more clearly and integrate fragmented parts of yourself.

 

[Chu]

Thanks Redfox. All very interesting. I can definitely relate to some of it at least. I've gotten a bit better over the years (supposedly) but many times I've been called a "worrier".

I think that another POV that hasn't been mentioned explicitly is something that the book Fear of Intimacy, by Robert W. Firestone and Joyce Catlett talks about. Although I don't think everything is absolute accurate in their analysis, I've found it to be SUPER useful and recommend it to you all. Here is the blurb:

Why is it that the relationships we care about most - those with our intimate partners - often seem doomed to fail? Why do we feel compelled to punish those closest to us who love and appreciate our real qualities? In ""Fear of Intimacy"", the authors bring almost 40 years of clinical experience to bear in challenging the usual ways of thinking about couples and families. They argue that relationships fail not for the commonly cited reasons, but because psychological defences formed in childhood act as a barrier to closeness in adulthood. A wide range of cross-generational case studies and powerful personal accounts illustrate how the ""fantasy bond"", a once-useful but now destructive form of self-parenting, jeopardizes meaningful attachments. Written in clear, jargon-free language, this book shows how therapists can help identify and overcome the messages of the internal ""voice"" that fosters distortions of the self and loved ones. Related issues such as interpersonal ethics and the role of stereotyping are also discussed. The authors' innovative approach should be of interest to therapists and couples alike.

One of their basic premises, as I understood it, is that as opposed to what many books on narcissistic wounds claim, such that many people tend to want to "repeat certain traumas in an attempt to make it all better/fix the past", many times we "worry, angst, etc." and don't change, or we fall back into the same damaging attitudes or dynamics, because we prefer that. Any time we have proof that there is no need to worry, that we are safe, that we can trust someone, etc., we feel the impulse to act in ways that will validate what our introject says, and make us and others miserable. In fact, the safer the scarier sometimes.

It is easier to worry, to be angry, to feel unloved, a victim or whatever, than it is to accept positive feedback, have intimate relationships, etc. when the latter is something we never learned in the past. I think that that is a point that many tend to forget. We love our suffering! (Until we decide to stop, of course). Again and again, we fall back into behaviors that are self-destructive. But it's not always because "we hate ourselves". Sometimes it is because that's all we know, and new territory would be scary. Sometimes it's because if we were to actually let go, and feel safe when appropriate, then we would be in unknown territory. And that's scary. The problem is that by worrying and creating situations that validate those worries, we then miss the opportunity to be truly close to someone, truly accepted. And we go in circles, continuing to suffer and worry "unconsciously".

I think that this can be applied when reading some of the quotes you shared, and to me at least, it made a lot of sense that way.

My 2 cents.

 

[RedFox]

Thanks Chu, that's a really important point!

One of their basic premises, as I understood it, is that as opposed to what many books on narcissistic wounds claim, such that many people tend to want to "repeat certain traumas in an attempt to make it all better/fix the past", many times we "worry, angst, etc." and don't change, or we fall back into the same damaging attitudes or dynamics, because we prefer that. Any time we have proof that there is no need to worry, that we are safe, that we can trust someone, etc., we feel the impulse to act in ways that will validate what our introject says, and make us and others miserable. In fact, the safer the scarier sometimes.

I sure could tell some stories about having done exactly that, repeatedly!

It is easier to worry, to be angry, to feel unloved, a victim or whatever, than it is to accept positive feedback, have intimate relationships, etc. when the latter is something we never learned in the past. I think that that is a point that many tend to forget. We love our suffering! (Until we decide to stop, of course). Again and again, we fall back into behaviors that are self-destructive. But it's not always because "we hate ourselves". Sometimes it is because that's all we know, and new territory would be scary. Sometimes it's because if we were to actually let go, and feel safe when appropriate, then we would be in unknown territory. And that's scary. The problem is that by worrying and creating situations that validate those worries, we then miss the opportunity to be truly close to someone, truly accepted. And we go in circles, continuing to suffer and worry "unconsciously".

I think that this can be applied when reading some of the quotes you shared, and to me at least, it made a lot of sense that way.

If it's all we've known then it's down to identity and what we attach too in order to 'be ourselves', or so we think.

What came instantly to mind was "Without my suffering, who am I?"
As scary as it may be, seeing these things brings in the possibility of answering the question with "Whatever I choose to be!" and acting in spite of any fear or stress in breaking a habit of a lifetime - small step by small step.

 

[kalibex]

Sometimes it is because that's all we know, and new territory would be scary.

What came instantly to mind was "Without my suffering, who am I?"

Could it be that simple?

 

[Beau]

Sometimes it is because that's all we know, and new territory would be scary.

What came instantly to mind was "Without my suffering, who am I?"

Could it be that simple?

Well, it's simple as an idea, but incredibly complex as a behavioral dynamic, especially for an individual engaging in unconscious suffering. That kind of behavior is typically very, very difficult to see in ourselves. But yes, a lot of people love their suffering. It becomes a part of who they are so much that to change would leave them with a feeling of annihilation. Which is true, but it's an annihilation of programs and behaviors that are detrimental to becoming aware and doing the Work.

 

[obyvatel]

Sometimes it is because that's all we know, and new territory would be scary.

What came instantly to mind was "Without my suffering, who am I?"

Could it be that simple?

Suffering is a great point to start with. "Without my self image, who am I?" is perhaps a more general rendition of the situation.

 

[shijing]

Thanks for the effort you put into collecting this information, Redfox -- it's good to have these ideas explained from a fresh perspective, and provides some very good food for thought. Thanks also, Chu, for adding the material from Fear of Intimacy -- I agree that those were some good points too, and I just added it to my shopping list. And I didn't find The Wisdom of Delenn too cheesy -- I think it fits well into the theme of the thread :)

 

[Chu]

Sometimes it is because that's all we know, and new territory would be scary.

What came instantly to mind was "Without my suffering, who am I?"

Could it be that simple?

Well, it's simple as an idea, but incredibly complex as a behavioral dynamic, especially for an individual engaging in unconscious suffering. That kind of behavior is typically very, very difficult to see in ourselves. But yes, a lot of people love their suffering. It becomes a part of who they are so much that to change would leave them with a feeling of annihilation. Which is true, but it's an annihilation of programs and behaviors that are detrimental to becoming aware and doing the Work.

Indeed... I don't know for others, but for me it was a big "aha" moment realizing this. Gurdjieff was onto something when he said that man had to have had enough of his unconscious suffering before actually suffering consciously.

If you think about it, why is it so hard to change some behaviors and beliefs? Sometimes we KNOW they are false, we've observed them and can't change them so easily. Maybe it's because part of us wants to go back to what we know, to the "comfortableness of our known suffering"?

Or, another way to look at it, is that when we set unrealistic goals, we know they are unrealistic, but we still have them, and later on we can say, see? I'm not worthy, I'll never make it, etc. But we knew they were unrealistic to begin with!

Or, sometimes we think we are too "broken/stupid/etc.". Well, then, what's the point in trying to do better? We stay in our "comfortable unconscious suffering".

But all this is but one way to see this. I'm not implying that it's even as simple as this, only that some of the explanations in these articles could also be viewed that way. Like Redfox pointed out here:

The thing that finally made me see it was seeing how patronizing my worry was towards others - it says 'without my worry (for you) you are helpless'.
It's also a form of martyring ones self. 'Can't you see how much I love you, by how much I suffer on your behalf?'

So true!

Both of these tend to come down to desperately Not wanting to feel helpless/not incontrol and/or alone. As with all emotion, they are part of life.

Yes. Though at least in my case, I realized that sometimes I would worry also for the opposite reasons, which came down to narcissism. It's not that I didn't want to feel helpless, but that I did, because that's what I was used to. Because spending too much time worrying about other people or things, you have an excuse to not do something about yourself, hence be helpless and then reaffirm that belief. (Notice that being worried is not the same as actually DOING something for others who ask. It's a passive state). It was not about wanting to feel in control, but actually feeling sorry for myself for NOT being in control (too busy worrying about others to take action for my life). Not a need not to be alone, but actually a reinforcement that I was alone, because by worrying I didn't need anybody, and others didn't really want my help. Does it make sense?

M. is diagnosed with cancer. So what do you do? You call, full of pity that you try to disguise but not disguise too much because you want her to know, after all, that your heart is breaking for her. You offer to help with her awful situation. You bring chicken soup and DVD's and so much worry that it fills the room. You ask what else you can do, and M. says, "Nothing, thank you for asking. I have everything I need." Nonsense, you think. She's pretending to be strong. {Because the worrier is projecting there own internal state of 'I can't even consider feeling that helpless - I would have to put on such a brave face whilst I was dying inside from that feeling'}

Yes, and/or because (in more pathological cases) the worrier loves to see helpless people, because then it reinforces his or her own ego. Or (in less pathological cases) because by occupying him/herself with this worry and "help" to his/her friend, the worrier can once again forget that he or she was determined just yesterday on becoming less needy of other people's appreciation, of doing something for him/herself, so that he/she would be less clingy, etc. So, it's "comfortable suffering".

With meaningful glances and pregnant sighs, you make sure everyone around you knows how absolutely terrible the situation is, and you spend every waking minute consumed by thoughts of M.'s unfortunate plight, hoping that other people you love don't have the same terrible experience, hoping that you don't have to bear the unbearable cross now sitting on M.'s weakened shoulders.

Exactly, and that keeps you distracted, just as explained above.

Some people will defend the second version saying that it's more compassionate, that it's more human, and that seeing difficult circumstances without a negative emotional reaction would be an act of cold denial. {Defending a position is a sign of black and white thinking. Considering not worrying as hurting or rejecting the other person Is black and white thinking. And black and white thinking generally comes from emotional pain you don't know how to handle.} To the contrary, I think that seeing life as you believe it "should" be or is going to be is the act of denial. Seeing life as it is is an act of compassion. And when you see life this way, it opens you up to be human in a way that is far more sustainable and kind.

Yeps, and this is something that we should also remember to do for ourselves: See ourselves as we are, and face the challenge of suffering consciously.

There are compelling reasons to do this. First, worrying about others has a very real effect on your own body. The more you worry, the more you throw off the delicate balance of hormones required for health. The word worry comes from the Old High German word wurgen which means to strangle. Worrisome thoughts and their resulting feelings are a form of self strangulation. They not only strangle your emotions. They affect your physical life as well, and your ability to focus and get things done. {And what happens if you need to act to help the person you are worrying about, but can't because your worrying has stopped you acting through draining Will? You come face to face with that feeling of helplessness you've been fighting to avoid and your world implodes into despair and depression.}

Yeps, self-fulfilling prophecy, thus going back to "comfortable suffering". And also, giving in a selfsih way, because it's in our terms. And not according to what the other person may really need and ask for. Only "comfortable help" is given. It doesn't feel comfortable, because it is coated with narratives of how good we are, etc. But in the end, it's what we know, thus less scary and sitting with the feeling that we are not so important.

And if your own strangulation isn't enough, those on the other side of your worry may experience choking too. When I first shared ActivInsight with cancer patients, I was surprised to learn that after a while some of them weren't too bothered by their diagnoses - they were following their protocols and staying focused on recovering. If they had fears about the future, they could work on "I know I'm going to die" and bring their minds back to the real world. But their families' constant worrying was a bigger problem. Even though other people have no power to disturb our emotions, it can sure seem like they do, and a life full of well-meaning worriers is a burden many people would rather not carry. {Which brings the worrier face to face with being alone/rejected, which again they are fighting desperately to avoid feeling.}

Yeah. And which goes back to giving something that was never asked for, because it was comfortable for us to do so. It's harder to accept that others may not need us in this way, and that that's ok.

FWIW.

 

[mabar]

Sometimes it is because that's all we know, and new territory would be scary.

What came instantly to mind was "Without my suffering, who am I?"

Could it be that simple?

Well, it's simple as an idea, but incredibly complex as a behavioral dynamic, especially for an individual engaging in unconscious suffering. That kind of behavior is typically very, very difficult to see in ourselves. But yes, a lot of people love their suffering. It becomes a part of who they are so much that to change would leave them with a feeling of annihilation. Which is true, but it's an annihilation of programs and behaviors that are detrimental to becoming aware and doing the Work.

Indeed... I don't know for others, but for me it was a big "aha" moment realizing this. Gurdjieff was onto something when he said that man had to have had enough of his unconscious suffering before actually suffering consciously.

If you think about it, why is it so hard to change some behaviors and beliefs? Sometimes we KNOW they are false, we've observed them and can't change them so easily. Maybe it's because part of us wants to go back to what we know, to the "comfortableness of our known suffering"?

I had been thinking, in my case, is related to having or not faith in the universe and myself. Myself without my "comfortableness of our known suffering" worrying about the outcome, future, and in many cases it halts/stops me, I had observed regarding work/business, in which I feel responsible/in charge of, and, all this world economic crisis, does not help much ... now that I am thinking this, this way, it occurred me to think that it had not help much when I had been afraid/doubts/anxiety worry.

... I would like to be myself without my circumstances, and this thread had been of help, thanks!