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Henry See wrote:
> Whew, this material by Mouravieff is so strong and clear. It just
> makes so much sense! Once again, when someone knows what they are
> talking about, it is evident. Something to remember every time we
> pull out a book where the author makes us feel like we are too
> stoopid to "get it." (Or that he can't speak because we haven't been
> initiated into level 3535 of the Grand Lodge of Personal Enrichment).

LK wrote: Yeah. But then, again, there ARE people who claim that the stuff that gives me a headache is as clear as glass to THEM! And that takes us back to the "different realities" issue. I finally realized that VB and gang simply could not grok anything we ever talked about, though they pretended to.

> And the references by the C's (third man, triad) must have just
> freaked you right out, Laura! And the Ark reference. And Greece.

Well, I didn't even mention the fact that a "Laura" is a monastic cell in a Greek monastery. That was pretty freaky too. What is amazing is the way that lots of what he says also meshes with alchemy, the Holy Grail, etc. But then, of course, he was also slightly influenced (though not too much) by the Synarchists of that period...

> How far are you into the triology? Can we expect more gems (while
> waiting for our own copies to arrive?).

Well, I've skimmed all of it and am now going back and reading more carefully and making notes. Ark read all three of them in French years ago, and when he discovered they were in English, he wanted me to read them also. Of course, what is so striking is that there are just simply so many remarks made by the C's that suddenly begin to make some sense. And there are some ideas of Mouravieff that I can see he "slipped up" because of things we think we know from C's - as well as things we have researched. He was taken with the evolutionary shtick promoted by the Synarchists and that is pretty much down the hatch with not just the C's, but other research including "Forbidden Archaeology" by Cremo and what's his face. And, of course, the lack of insight re: hyperdimensional space/beings was a shortcoming. But its kind of freaky to have your own experiences and "learnings," that you got the hard way, described as the exact steps of a "path" - as well as some of the "next" steps...

HS: This is lateral to Mouravieff, but I was wondering about "Zelator" today in the light of what you have posted. I am under the impression that the reference came from VB. I read it recently and had a mixed reaction. There was a lot that I was fascinated with because it was an overview of the whole Western initiatic tradition, but on the other hand, there was an arrogant feel to it. That may have come from Ovason, rather than Hedsel. But I didn't buy the references to Fulcanelli being in Florence. That seemed too much a set up by the Italian teacher.

I was thinking about Zelator because this tradition spoken of by Mouravieff has none of the cloak and dagger stuff of the Masons or the Rosy Cross, and the whole cloak and dagger, secret initiation strikes me as very STS. Which made me wonder whether this stuff should be thrown out....yeah, I tend to be extreme sometimes....is this stuff really just one of the veils?

And JW made a rather arrogant remark about the fact that Ark and you have never been "initiated". As for "different realities", it occurs to me that if we are parts of a Unified Thought form, and we are in the process of unifying, then we're gonna be together a long "time". Important to find folks with whom you're comfortable in that case! Things like a sense of humour...

The Ark reference on the Praxis site, and the mention of catastrophe and recurring floods made me wonder if there is something in this tradition about the cycle of destruction. Did you run across any hints of this in Mouravieff? Or of anything which would sync with the "food for the moon"?

JH: Henry, I was thinking along similar lines. The Zelator being one of my sacred cows which in fact was the way I came across the group. I mentioned to someone off list that it was time I put a sword to it. Reasons being similar to yours. The Rosicrucian deal, the astrology deal as well as the whole Master/Initiate in reverance of the heirachy setup. Gurdjieff is just as guilty of this IMHO and Hedsel was most likely involved in the Gurdjieff school. What I'm finding is that there seems to be a science behind the "mysteries" which have experiened chinese whispers (similar to Laura's Ooms around the TV anology). And if one is prepared to look hard enough the science seems to be able to be uncovered. Having said that, the Zelator does reveal "something" but once again it is cloaked and covered and veiled in initiate language which really sorts the wheat from the chaff in terms of "searchers". The alchemists tried the same thing and have beaten me as well!

LK:Again and again I am finding many of our personal and group experiences exactly described by Mouravieff - Here is another idea that we have become only vaguely aware of, but have never quite articulated this way: **We cannot reach the objective except through the medium of the subjective. This is the underlying reason for esoteric studies: they allow the exterior man to give objective validity to his subjective mentality. He can achieve this by a technique analogous to one we apply to precision instruments: before putting them to work, we determine the reading error of each. By taking the "subjectivity" of instruments into account in this way, we obtain correct readings from them, in spite of their flaws. Ot observe the phenomena of our internal world and those of the external world with precision, we must have recognized and determined the reading error of our mental instrument for observation, one of the main tools of the Personality. All esoteric teaching is oriented towards this goal, which is reached with the second Birth - when man attains a new form of consciousness and existence which is quite different, objective - and which exterior man can only represent to himself in a vague and obscure way.** What I think we have established is that working as a group is our means of establishing the "reading error" of our observations. It seems to be that what we have achieved so far is a remarkable process of actually speeding up the "esoteric" work on the self by the principle of the "network." Of course, it SEEMS slow, but that is, as Mouravieff would say, only relative. Compared to the progress any one of us has made on our own over many years, the progress within the group has been phenomenal for many. This suggests that this book has come along at precisely the right time. The group is possibly ready for some more "applied work" in the sense of having some definitions and descriptions put to what we are doing and what we may possibly achieve. I hope that as many members as can do so, will get copies and read them and then there will be a more concentrated focus even if, to a great extent, what the group does won't change that much. What is important is applying things in our lives individually and collectively. That is - for those who want to.

On 18 Jun 2002, at 15:36, Donna wrote:
> It's just very exciting information and should be excellent material for
> discussions and further development of the I's we're each seeking to strengthen.

Hi,
Among the things that stood out for me, this one was significant: This time brings with it a great preparatory task for the transition to the approaching Cycle of the Holy Spirit. The preparatory task fundamental to the Time of Transition can and must be accomplished under the Aegis of the Absolute, for human beings and BY human beings. [Note: he says it must be accomplished BY human beings... NOT "aliens." ] Success depends upon the emergence in the near future of a sufficient number of people belonging to a new human type - torch bearers who have an innate predisposition for esoteric work. And, it is Women who must play the inspirational role in this difficult time of Transition leading to the promised era of redemption. This word "torch" got my attention also:

Q: (A) I want to ask about the meaning of my dream, which was so vivid... about Elohim and Seraphim. What was the meaning of this dream?
A: Peace torch.
Q: (A) What is peace torch? From whom?
A: Not from. All considered before decision on judgment.
Q: (L) That makes no sense at all. A: Yes it does.
Q: (A) Who were the Elohim?
A: Elohim refers to past, as a connection to future as envisioned in your dream. It is the connector that counts, see?? Ruling council of Od; Odiem.
Q: (L) What about the Seraphim?
A: Council in clouds... We are speaking of advanced insight here.
Q: (L) Why were there 300 Elohim and 301 Seraphim?
A: Who is the odd one out?
Q: (A) Who is the odd one out?
A: Check your roots. Od, odiem, odd, could we spell it out any clearer for you? Not without abridging free will!
Q: (L) Who is Sara?
A: Roots.
Q: (L) Who is the 'King of the Angels?'
A: No more spoonfeeding. Gerbers is out of stock!

DH: Laura: This suggests that this book has come along at precisely the right time. The group is possibly ready for some more "applied work" in the sense of having some definitions and descriptions put to what we are doing and what we may possibly achieve.

On 18 Jun 2002, at 20:57, expandingview wrote:
> The material that is being posted from Mouravieff is truly inspiring.
> > > So what is this danger? It is the danger of becoming arrogant that we
> are somehow special. That we have been selected. Curious, it is as if
> to proceed on an STO-oriented path we know that we are different but
> we cannot entertain that as some kind of badge. Otherwise, we become
> STS indulgers masquerading as STO candidates. Or STO-inspired who
> slide down a slippery slope of self-importance.
> Well, the passages are true--I certainly believe their accuracy. Yet,
> and yet, and yet. . . there is this small little danger that could
> shipwreck the whole thing.
> > Gives "devil in the details" a slightly different meaning.

Hi,

I agree 100 % and hesitated before transcribing them. But, after I thought about it for just a moment or two - and maybe that wasn't sufficient - I thought that "well, we have concentrated an awful lot on the pain and suffering and hard work, so maybe there ought to be at least the realization that there IS something to be said FOR undertaking such a path." I suspect that there can be any number of responses to such ideas. My thought is that those who think it's a badge to be worn give themselves away just as you described: STS masquerading as STO. And being warned of the danger - perhaps will ameliorate the problem somewhat. My thought about it has always been sort of along the line "the workman is worthy of his hire." Only I have always phrased it "the Ox is worthy of his hire." I guess that if I ever wanted anything at the end of life it was for those left behind to say "she worked hard and left the little area of the world she occupied cleaner and better than it was before." Perhaps just thinking of ourselves as "workmen" with a job to do is the best approach. It's a dirty job, but somebody's gotta do it. And if we concentrate on the job at hand, and don't worry about the wages - then we can do better work.

On 18 Jun 2002, at 21:16, expandingview wrote:
> There is a another subtlty involved. I call it the "double backhand
> switcheroo":
> > The arrogance of a pretend "Mouravieff" er would be NOT in exulting
> in being right about particular things but exulting in being open to
> correction and error and THEREFORE a higher type of human AND
> THEREFORE a member of the elite. That's a good one. The old "my rags are raggedier than your rags" routine. Lord, how often have we seen this one??? My thought is that it is best to stay humble and not try to sit above the salt. Better to be invited to move up than told that you have presumed too much.

Frank: The material that is being posted from Mouravieff is truly inspiring. There is one aspect that is troubling me and it is a danger for anyone who starts on a path that includes something else than "ordinary pursuits." (I put this in quotes because once on a spiritual path, even "ordinary pursuits" like wiping your bottom can be experienced from a more real perspective.) So what is this danger? It is the danger of becoming arrogant that we are somehow special. That we have been selected. Curious, it is as if to proceed on an STO-oriented path we know that we are different but we cannot entertain that as some kind of badge. Otherwise, we become STS indulgers masquerading as STO candidates. Or STO-inspired who slide down a slippery slope of self-importance. There are three passages in the material that Laura has posted that raise alarm bells for me: "The ideas and facts exposed in this passage explain why esoteric studies are the birthright only of the minority who are preoccupied by things of the spirit" AND "Success depends upon the emergence in the near future of a sufficient number of people belonging to a new human type - torch bearers who have an innate predisposition for esoteric work." AND "Nor can a person be admitted to a university without having a secondary education. These graduations automatically "select" those able to become active members of the cultural elite of human society."

Donna: Frank, I can certainly appreciate your concerns, yet how many times have you longed to share this kind of information with those around only to be met with . . . at best, blank faces. It's just very unusual to meet someone in the flesh who can get excited and inspired by finding material of this sorts. I don't think of us as 'special' but as 'different'; those who are passionate about material of this nature, unlike so many others. So, I think we are a minority and maybe a new human type. Something keeps me searching and searching long after others have lost interest. The last example you cited is perhaps the most difficult . . . defining an interested person as 'the cultural elite of human society'. I think there's a trifle too much baggage with those words . . . but, whew! Just try to get others interested . . . it doesn't happen!

Donna, I know, I know. But that is the trap we have set up for ourselves. We have EVIDENCE we are special (see those blank looks!). So, we must be special. I have to say that since March 7 (when I became a member), I have NEVER read a post by anyone on the list that suggested that this kind of distortion was happening. So, maybe I am just shouting "fire" in a theatre where everyone is already calmly moving toward the exits. (!!) Maybe there were a few people asleep in the back row, though. Frank J.

Laura, "Better to be invited to move up than told that you have presumed too much." Why did joy flood to my heart and hotness to my eyes when I read this? FJ