'Awakened conscience', DOing, and achieving CRITICAL MASS

Ennio]but the growth comes from said:
I almost forgot. Don't lie. If you have no fear, you don't lie. The part I am really struggling with is who is trustworthy. There were (in retrospect) an awful lot of people "watching" me while I went through what I went through and though they were nice, they weren't talking. That is the part that is still confusing to me.
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I'm not sure what you mean by that.
I think most important to be honest with yourself.
I'm referring to Gurdjieff, thanks lylyalic to post:
External considering is taking the needs of all into account in order to make things easy both for ourselves and for others. The above makes it clear that, for people not engaged in The Work, their needs usually include the need not to have their worldview questioned. It also makes clear that, in order to remain decent, many people need to remain ignorant of what you actually think. As George Gurdjieff said, "sincerity with everyone is weakness."

Internal aspect

The inner aspect of strategic enclosure entails several ideas and practices. These essentially concern gaining an objective view of reality, and self-mastery. One must discern between the influences of illusion and the influences that lead to understanding of reality. (See A, B, and C influences.) The part of the self which is aligned with the latter must remain in charge, regardless of any and all 'A' influences (influences of illusion) which exert pressure, be they inner and/or outer.

Since 'A' influences are much stronger than the influences which lead toward objectivity, the seeker on the Way must conserve energy. They must master 'A' influences by first identifying them, then understanding how they influence life and learning to work while immersed in them. This requires 'non-identification', or as Gurdjieff called it, "separating 'I' from 'it.'"

'A' influences include a variety of social, cultural, and biological forces – and in turn also inner psychological forces. By not identifying with them, and creating an inner enclosure from which to observe them 'at a distance' (i.e., 'I' observing 'it', as if in another person), one can avoid being swept along by them. But to do this requires a degree of self-awareness or self-remembering, being 'present' in oneself.

If the seeker forgets him- or herself – identifying with the dynamics of the exterior world or his/her own machine – then his or her guard is down, so to speak. Acting mechanically and automatically, the seeker not only wastes energy, but may end up bringing troubles into his or her life. The stronger the waking sleep or confluence, the more energy is wasted and the greater the 'opening' for attack. The General Law is quick to react.

By contrast, a state of self-awareness free from identification allows the seeker to always practice external considering, saving enough energy for The Work while keeping the General Law at bay and making life easy on those around him or her.
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I believe people don't realize how much they lie in all situations. For example, most would like to a policeman if they get stopped for speeding for instance. Standing up, admitting you did or said something when confronted and then taking your lumps, whatever they may be, is what I mean. This is very difficult at first. We are so conditioned in the wrong way to care about what others think or what the consequences are. Lying for the greater good, is not lying. That is truth. It is the simple, every day things, even to self that are the hardest things to be honest about. If you have no fear of the consequences (ticket, other's opinions, etc) then lying becomes a meaningless pastime and part of the bigger lies.

After I lost my son, I sat down and thought what was the worst that could happen? I could lose my home (happened later), lose all I ever thought was true and what would I be left with? My faith and trusting myself. If I lied to myself, then the only thing real in this world would be a lie. Do you see?

What are we afraid of? Being seen naked? Who cares? Being laughed at? Who cares? Being scorned or called a nut? Who cares? But if you can't trust yourself, and you can't if you lie to yourself, THEN who cares? I do. That is all we have is our MIND and the truth.

At the beginning, I decided to deliberately flip reality by staying in the moment and not caring what others thought about what I was doing. That is how my conscience reached AWAKE and CRITICAL Mass. Please bear with me. All I have learned has been locked inside me since May of 2013 and this is the first time I am trying to articulate any of it. I can help.
 
We all lie because we are afraid of something. If you figure out what you are afraid of and follow those fears to possible conclusions and realize that if you are pure of intent (meaning STO) then the fears of all the things this world can do to your body are only things they can do to your body. If you are coming from a place of truth, then the fears instilled in us by a very lying world go away. What is the worst that could happen? You die. Well, we are all going to die (in a manner of speaking). That is what leads to eternal life/light.
 
I'm just wondering, Villival, are you saying that we should all tell the truth all of the time no matter what?

A lot of what you are describing is that we internally consider quite a lot and externally consider rather infrequently. You can read about these terms here at the Casswiki site under External vs Internal Considering.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, Gurdjieff indicated that being sincere with everyone is a weakness being that in a lot of the times we are just trying to prove how we are right and the other person is wrong, or how we are so much better than others because we always "tell it like it is" so we are so much more advanced and knowing than others are.

Also, as Laura has said in her writings that there is always the Third Principle that goes like this: We recognize that the Third Principle has a practical application at our level of awareness in the moral sphere. There is Good, Evil, and the specific context that determines which is which.

In other words, lying is, actually, good in some circumstances such as (as Laura uses in one of her books) if we were in Germany during Hitler's time and we were part of a rebel unit and were caught and questioned by the SS, would we, then, tell the truth of where are fellow rebels were, or lie to save them? It isn't a black and white type of thing. There are many gray areas in our choices in many cases.

External considering is all about doing what makes life easier for others and ourselves - and sometimes that means lying.
 
@ Villival, Nienna

You both have right.

LIE is a LIE, opposite to TRUTH. Lying is STS. And Villival has right, full STO doesn't fear truth about themselves or death. At the same time lying can bring someone to the truth or protect and give later many possibilities to live, prosper and to know the truth.

Everyone chooses his bar and starts to jump. For one it will be telling the truth even if it means death for someone else, lying in order to survive and continue to learn 3D STS. Both paths are correct I would say.
 
A Lie is a false bit of information that never happened in the past and/or it will never happen in the future. It serves different purposes:
People Lie in several ways ~ 1) They intent to Lie to serve 'Myself'; 2) They intent to Lie to serve 'Others' (this is to engage Critical/Creative Thinking into Others so they walk and find their way to the Truth) ~ it is better sometimes to mislead someone on purpose so he/she can find the right way ~ lessons learned, should not trust easily without critical thinking; 3) They have no idea they are lying because they are Ignorant (Ignorance is a bliss) ~ closed-minded people simply refuse to learn because they think they hold all the answers for everything; 4) They are hiding something they know about but they choose to remain silent (for both reasons, STS or STO) ~ it is a paradox since the Truth is not spoken out, so is the Lie, therefore, it holds no information for nobody, which is still a 'potential' information to be employed in the future for the right moment, and it can be presented as a Lie or a Truth depending on the current situation; 5) This World is a constant battle between the Lie and the Truth and our purpose here is to separate the one from the other.
 
lux said:
@ Villival, Nienna

You both have right.

LIE is a LIE, opposite to TRUTH. Lying is STS. And Villival has right, full STO doesn't fear truth about themselves or death. At the same time lying can bring someone to the truth or protect and give later many possibilities to live, prosper and to know the truth.

Everyone chooses his bar and starts to jump. For one it will be telling the truth even if it means death for someone else, lying in order to survive and continue to learn 3D STS. Both paths are correct I would say.
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I wanted to say: Everyone chooses his bar and starts to jump. For one it will be telling the truth even if it means death to that person. For someone else, lying in order to survive and continue to learn 3D STS and develop. Both paths are correct I would say.
 
Quoting from memory: There's good and there's evil and there's the specific circumstances that determine which is which. There are circumstances in which lying is good and telling the truth would be evil. To suggest otherwise is kind of simple-minded.
 
In practical terms, when I am in the process of interacting and experiencing a situation, I do not find an absolute truth associated with it. The insight that comes from the experience is an unfolding dynamic phenomenon. Insight about the specific situation comes after the participation in its experience, when the newly perceived data is evaluated and compared with previous knowledge and experience. Thus I think a picture of the reality emerges or unfolds. If we say that reality is truth, which is what my current understanding is, then the truth that we experience is an emergent phenomenon and is not a fixed logical abstraction.

The extent to which we comprehend truth depends on how much we are able to use our different centers (4th way terms - moving/instinctive, emotional and intellectual) or functions (Jungian terms - sensing, intuition, feeling and thinking). These different centers or functions look at different aspects of the situation and the more we are able to integrate their inputs into the overall picture, we get incrementally closer to reality as it is. The thinking function deals more in generalized abstractions and ideas while the feeling function evaluates the specific situation in terms of a multitude of factors. The sensing function deals with in the moment visceral sense perceptions while the intuition function deals with perception of possibilities. The degree to which we can bring all that we can perceive and process about the present situation and bring it to bear in driving our action or response in the next moment determines how adaptive our response is to current reality.

It is possible to consider the above in light of the present discussion on speaking the truth or speaking a lie and making it an either-or, black vs white choice.
 
Both Lie and Truth hold some piece of information that resonates true or false to the listener, depending on the context. Here is the paradox. If 100% of all people believe in a Lie, then they will create a world based on the ideas and dogmas of the original Lie. A Lie is still a piece of information however false it is. People's world becomes an illusion, a creation based on a Lie, and yet the world is experienced so real that people believe it is the only Truth they know. But it's a Lie. This world is a grand Illusion. We live in a complex system of Lies, created by men, to control the masses. A brand new world had been Created based on a Lie. Now, we want to Create a new world based on a Truth. How do we know what is the truth? When 100% of the people believe in it! Until then, we will try to Lie to get closer to the Truth, i.e to reach the Critical Mass when this process gets irreversible. Then a brand new world is being created. This is the quantum Lie/Truth paradox. I think.
Is it true, or false? Both!
 
The 4th Way is like a penetrating crawling Light into the realm of Darkness. The Darkness itself represents a starting reference point to a new reality that we Create at each and every given moment. It is what we do, or what we don't, and if we don't do what we are supposed to do, we do what we are not supposed to do, which a reference point to the Entropy principle of STS. We are supposed to be doing what we are supposed to be doing to Create a new Reality that is the STO way, to bring Light into Darkness, but not the other way around!
 
Stefan said:
The 4th Way is like a penetrating crawling Light into the realm of Darkness. The Darkness itself represents a starting reference point to a new reality that we Create at each and every given moment. It is what we do, or what we don't, and if we don't do what we are supposed to do, we do what we are not supposed to do, which a reference point to the Entropy principle of STS. We are supposed to be doing what we are supposed to be doing to Create a new Reality that is the STO way, to bring Light into Darkness, but not the other way around!
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Yes, we are living in a realm of STS, I think the world is so, among many reasons, because souls decided to incarnate in a world like this for evolution, there are souls who are more advanced and understand this "game" and are helping those who needed and clear call for help, there are people who are doing what they do because so they elijieron, is their free albredio, like all the work of this forum, we are people who decide to do, as you mentioned at the end bring light to dark.

I think the word "should do" could be misused? maybe it would be better to just "do" what's in your box lessons to learn in this kingdom, without wanting to change others, in some cisrcunstancias, so you see can only help with good advice. :)
 
Stefan said:
Both Lie and Truth hold some piece of information that resonates true or false to the listener, depending on the context. Here is the paradox. If 100% of all people believe in a Lie, then they will create a world based on the ideas and dogmas of the original Lie. A Lie is still a piece of information however false it is. People's world becomes an illusion, a creation based on a Lie, and yet the world is experienced so real that people believe it is the only Truth they know. But it's a Lie. This world is a grand Illusion. We live in a complex system of Lies, created by men, to control the masses. A brand new world had been Created based on a Lie. Now, we want to Create a new world based on a Truth. How do we know what is the truth? When 100% of the people believe in it! Until then, we will try to Lie to get closer to the Truth, i.e to reach the Critical Mass when this process gets irreversible. Then a brand new world is being created. This is the quantum Lie/Truth paradox. I think.
Is it true, or false? Both!
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I'm no tso sure about this point of view. It's another version of "your truth" and "my truth".

To use a sort of silly example, it can be said that even though we know water is a liquid, under certain circumstances water can be a solid. Both are true. But suppose everyone actually believed water is a solid material all the time, and behaved as if it were true. There would be a lot of drownings, and any construction attempted on a lake would be a disaster. So the fact that 100% of people believe that water is always a solid will never make it so.

As far a creating a new world, we can only do that be responding to the world we are living in as it is. Unless we can see a accurately what is in place at the moment, how can we act in ways that encourage the development of the world we would like? We can't force the Universe, we can only respond to what it is presenting to us and see what happens. Then respond again, each time noting what made progress and what didn't. Then respond again. Each small act, or many small acts by many people can make a difference overall.

That's what SOTT is a about, what the Forum is about. They helps us to see what IS, and then make an accurate decision about what we will do about it in our little corners of the world. As another example, it may be as simple as showing kindness and patience with those who are still asleep, while sticking to a proper keto diet. You don't force the diet on them, but you are an example of what the diet can do. It sends a signal to the Universe that you stand for a truth that is in agreement with the Universe as it is, i.e. this diet is most optimal for human health. See?
 
herondancer said:
Stefan said:
Both Lie and Truth hold some piece of information that resonates true or false to the listener, depending on the context. Here is the paradox. If 100% of all people believe in a Lie, then they will create a world based on the ideas and dogmas of the original Lie. A Lie is still a piece of information however false it is. People's world becomes an illusion, a creation based on a Lie, and yet the world is experienced so real that people believe it is the only Truth they know. But it's a Lie. This world is a grand Illusion. We live in a complex system of Lies, created by men, to control the masses. A brand new world had been Created based on a Lie. Now, we want to Create a new world based on a Truth. How do we know what is the truth? When 100% of the people believe in it! Until then, we will try to Lie to get closer to the Truth, i.e to reach the Critical Mass when this process gets irreversible. Then a brand new world is being created. This is the quantum Lie/Truth paradox. I think.
Is it true, or false? Both!
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I'm no tso sure about this point of view. It's another version of "your truth" and "my truth".

To use a sort of silly example, it can be said that even though we know water is a liquid, under certain circumstances water can be a solid. Both are true. But suppose everyone actually believed water is a solid material all the time, and behaved as if it were true. There would be a lot of drownings, and any construction attempted on a lake would be a disaster. So the fact that 100% of people believe that water is always a solid will never make it so.

As far a creating a new world, we can only do that be responding to the world we are living in as it is. Unless we can see a accurately what is in place at the moment, how can we act in ways that encourage the development of the world we would like? We can't force the Universe, we can only respond to what it is presenting to us and see what happens. Then respond again, each time noting what made progress and what didn't. Then respond again. Each small act, or many small acts by many people can make a difference overall.

That's what SOTT is a about, what the Forum is about. They helps us to see what IS, and then make an accurate decision about what we will do about it in our little corners of the world. As another example, it may be as simple as showing kindness and patience with those who are still asleep, while sticking to a proper keto diet. You don't force the diet on them, but you are an example of what the diet can do. It sends a signal to the Universe that you stand for a truth that is in agreement with the Universe as it is, i.e. this diet is most optimal for human health. See?
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Herondancer, I would agree with this. To say that something is true, only when 100% of people "believe it to be", would seem to indicate that all we need to validate a truth is numbers. A good historical example along similar lines to herondancer's (not mine, but a quote that resonated with me many years ago), is that for a very long time most, if not all of the population of the world, sincerely believed that the earth was flat. But that didn't make it so.

Hope I am not misinterpreting what Stefan was saying, but just my thoughts FWIW.
 
lainey said:
Hello Stefan, I just wanted to comment on a few things that caught my eye from your posts:
It is then people's choice should they want to believe in the illusions, or should they just let be controlled by their delusional mind. I do not go silent with these people. I go as far as they have to eventually block me from their social contacts. Good. Many people still follow me, that gives me hope. They know I am a nut job and a thought criminal anyway. However, they are very curious.
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Can you see the contradiction here? You say it is the choice of the people if they want to remain asleep, from that I understand you respect their free will, their choice? Then in the next sentence you say you "Do not go silent" and "Go as far as they have to eventually block me". From that I understand that you force your opinions on them until they block you? Therefore not respecting their free will?
I don't know the dynamics of the interactions that lead to people blocking you but it sounds like you are trying to force something here instead of gently planting seeds.

Our advantage over these people is always and shall be knowledge. My main idea is to reveal to people their own weakness and areas of vulnerability
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To me, these two sentences are a little disturbing. Why do you want to have an advantage over someone? It reads like you feel you are above other people. IMO it is not our place to decide whether a person "needs" anything revealed to them if they are not asking. Perhaps some people aren't ready to have their weakness and vulnerability pointed out to them. I don't think it is up to us to decide what is right for another.

We are supposed to be the leaders.
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Are we? I thought the point of the network was that there are no leaders, just everybody sharing what they can as a team.

Like for example, I may invite a friend over to have dinner and have a little chat about the secrets of life. He will say, ok! I am so excited, let's talk! So we'll have dinner which is probably going to be extremely irritating to my friend since he would love to know the secrets and I'll never speak a word. Instead, I'll just eat my food and completely ignore my guest. I will pay attention to him if he needs an extra dressing or something. When we are done eating, I will send him home. The question is, I really doubt it if this guy is going to be my friend ever again? The methods of teachings I believe can be unlimited. We have to utilize them in respect to the uniqueness of every individual.
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This to me seems like playing games and manipulation. It may have worked for Gurdjieff but to me it seems like an odd way to treat a friend.

But I am thinking about expanding my network via internet to reach out to more people. It is just like starting a brand new enterprise. It takes a lot of effort and commitment, it is a lot of work.
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It sounds like hard work, especially if you are actively using your energy trying to "recruit" instead of letting those who are really searching come to you. IMO it is a waste of energy giving to those who are not asking.

I appreciate your passion for the need to awaken people and it looks like you give it a lot of thought and effort. Perhaps you are trying to push things a little? My advise would be to take a gentler approach, like Nienna said "leaving seeds for them to sow if they want to".
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lainey,

I think your advice about being "gentler" really important if we are to reach Critical Mass on the forum much less as a species.

Session 30 May 2009
Q: (L) Okay, what is the importance of Paleochristianity?

A: The only hope for the survival of your realm and species.

Q: (L) In what sense do you mean that?

A: Unification of aim: survival and avoidance of the destruction hanging over your heads as a consequence of the machinations of psychopathy.

Q: (L) So in other words, some of the thoughts and discussions that we've had over the past week or two {about the global situation} are pretty much on the money?

A: Yes. More or less. There has also been some nudging from this side. Time is getting "short" even though there really is no time. Remember what we said about being wise as serpents and gentle as doves.
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And Stephan I hope you don't think we are picking on you. Some of methods you mentioned seemed a little lacking in external consideration but I have the same problem myself sometimes wanting think of ways to reach people or try to wake them up realizing the "time" is short. I is probably one of our most difficult aspects to deal with. Those dang serpents are pretty darn wise sometimes. :/
 
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