finding partners...

[Carl]

Those step by step instructions struck me as kinda weird. Isn't the point just being yourself and doing what is natural to you and when you meet the right person they just "fit" and there is no need to find a manual to explain "needs" or how you should change to meet the expectations of someone else. If you have focused your energy on work on yourself all the obstacles most relationships come up against shouldn't be a problem if you are aware and open. I kind of swing towards having a polar opposite who I may or may not meet in this life and I'm just not that interested in actively finding a partner right now. If the right person comes along, they come along. great, if not, great. I'd much rather focus my time on self development and building trusting, platonic relationships and friendships. I believe we can learn to nurture each other and don't necessarily need to have a "partner" to be happy. Just my opinion though.

Work on oneself includes work on one's social skills, including those skills relating to the opposite sex. The idea of "just be yourself and everything will be fine" is more of a fairy tale that would only be true in an ideal world. It strikes me as an easy self-narrative to adopt in order to not work on certain skills. Kind of similar to how Christianity became the meek, "nice guy" religion, despite it being inspired one of the most bold, extraordinary men in history. Some of us DO need manuals.

Regarding actually finding partners, and whether it is even worth pursuing, I can speak only for myself, 22yo male. After numerous experiences with it, I have no desire for the insanity that passes for "love" these days, and I have no desire to trap myself in a serious relationship because 1) There are no suitable candidates in the modern world and 2) I'm not at a level of maturity to be able to deal with that.
What I do desire is sex, and after a long enough period without it, I find it hard to think about anything else. Regular sex provides a sense of satisfaction, self esteem, relief from loneliness, and the ability to focus on other things. Psychological stress is reduced, as well as stubborn physical markers of inflammation that persist through diet changes. So I go for mutual arrangements where both of us know exactly what the score is, and we're both fine with it.
This is probably not like an ultimately healthy human relationship, but it's the best I can manage in this environment.

 

[Oxajil]

Those step by step instructions struck me as kinda weird. Isn't the point just being yourself and doing what is natural to you and when you meet the right person they just "fit" and there is no need to find a manual to explain "needs" or how you should change to meet the expectations of someone else. If you have focused your energy on work on yourself all the obstacles most relationships come up against shouldn't be a problem if you are aware and open. I kind of swing towards having a polar opposite who I may or may not meet in this life and I'm just not that interested in actively finding a partner right now. If the right person comes along, they come along. great, if not, great. I'd much rather focus my time on self development and building trusting, platonic relationships and friendships. I believe we can learn to nurture each other and don't necessarily need to have a "partner" to be happy. Just my opinion though.

Work on oneself includes work on one's social skills, including those skills relating to the opposite sex. The idea of "just be yourself and everything will be fine" is more of a fairy tale that would only be true in an ideal world. It strikes me as an easy self-narrative to adopt in order to not work on certain skills.

But notice that lainey did not say not to work on the self. Work on the self also includes being a good obyvatel, being able to socialize with people, improve social skills, etc.

What I do desire is sex, and after a long enough period without it, I find it hard to think about anything else. Regular sex provides a sense of satisfaction, self esteem, relief from loneliness, and the ability to focus on other things. Psychological stress is reduced, as well as stubborn physical markers of inflammation that persist through diet changes. So I go for mutual arrangements where both of us know exactly what the score is, and we're both fine with it.
This is probably not like an ultimately healthy human relationship, but it's the best I can manage in this environment.

I dunno, I think it certainly will have or has an effect on an unconscious level. It's really sad, to me at least, that sex has become such a casual thing. Sounds pretty cold to me, but maybe that's me. And maybe it's your self-narrative ('it's the best I can manage in this environment') in order to not work on finding out different solutions to your problem. Sometimes giving in to the predator is easier than discipline and self-control. Fwiw.

Btw, I also hope you realize the kind of baggage you might be attracting (attachments and the like) from such activities.

 

[mugatea]

I'm lovesick at the mo, really putting me in a bad/self loathing place. I see/chat to this woman pretty much everyday - she's an employee of mine and in a happy relationship and generally we meet up most days at the same time to walk dogs! I've never had a girlfriend. I end up withdrawing from people I have feelings for and do a "I dont care about you" act and so this week have been staying away and not walking with her and not being really chatty and then hating myself after for being such a prat. I tried Plenty of fish a couple of weeks ago thinking that might help but after sending 40 messages to local girls and getting zero responses it just made me feel so bad I quit. I have problems with rejection and confrontation, I know this cause a old lady in a dream told me. lol

I'm hoping the EE (which I started this week will help me 'man-up' and behave in a more proper and healthy manner and help with my own self loathing.

Everytime I see this girl it just makes me feel so depressed, really bad and I think there's a combo of starting keto and just starting EE which is adding to my low vibes.

Anyone been lovesick? How did you deal with it? Is me staying away the right thing to do or pathetic? Do I just need a kick up the arse?

Jamie

 

[Carl]

I dunno, I think it certainly will have or has an effect on an unconscious level. It's really sad, to me at least, that sex has become such a casual thing. Sounds pretty cold to me, but maybe that's me. And maybe it's your self-narrative ('it's the best I can manage in this environment') in order to not work on finding out different solutions to your problem. Sometimes giving in to the predator is easier than discipline and self-control. Fwiw.

Btw, I also hope you realize the kind of baggage you might be attracting (attachments and the like) from such activities.

I don't know about cold, it's not like the weird clinical environment of prostitution, but I get what you mean. And you are right, theoretically about discipline and self control, but I tried 2 years of being a monk and found it to be pretty much impossible practically. There is also still a certain amount of cognitive dissonance over the fact that sex is pretty much ubiquitously accepted and celebrated in all areas of society, but this is the only place where I can feel ashamed for having a sex drive and acting on it. I don't know if this is an age thing, a gender thing, or a specific personal problem? There are very few young guys in this network, but it seems to be a common theme for most of us, OSIT.

 

[Chad]

I dunno, I think it certainly will have or has an effect on an unconscious level. It's really sad, to me at least, that sex has become such a casual thing. Sounds pretty cold to me, but maybe that's me. And maybe it's your self-narrative ('it's the best I can manage in this environment') in order to not work on finding out different solutions to your problem. Sometimes giving in to the predator is easier than discipline and self-control. Fwiw.

Btw, I also hope you realize the kind of baggage you might be attracting (attachments and the like) from such activities.

I don't know about cold, it's not like the weird clinical environment of prostitution, but I get what you mean. And you are right, theoretically about discipline and self control, but I tried 2 years of being a monk and found it to be pretty much impossible practically. There is also still a certain amount of cognitive dissonance over the fact that sex is pretty much ubiquitously accepted and celebrated in all areas of society, but this is the only place where I can feel ashamed for having a sex drive and acting on it. I don't know if this is an age thing, a gender thing, or a specific personal problem? There are very few young guys in this network, but it seems to be a common theme for most of us, OSIT.

First of all we need to take into account that climax and all associated with it is ingrained in our culture, and the biological drive is extremely powerful. So our thinking about it is distorted and, as we talk about here, are slaves to our biological/emotional drives.That may be why it's mastery is also respected as one of the routes to higher knowledge. It may explain why wise men are generally older as well, perhaps we can't totally conquer it in our younger years - but we should try to tame it.

Actually, it may apply to women too (i can't say!). After all, the 'crone' - post menopausal - is regarded with the utmost respect in certain cultures.

It's also why it's used by tptb as their main tool of control (after a history of prudishness and Victorian values). What better way than to get all fighting age men debilitated by showing nudity everywhere, keeping them aroused, with the blood not going to their brain.

From the ages of 14 to 20 odd, not aware of this forum or it's research, i didn't feel a 'conflict' with my urges, but i did feet it was kinda pointless and i saw how it controlled people. This powerlessness or changes in people when aroused always stuck with me. Does it mean i never masturbated or thought about sex? Or behaved in a way at odds to my thinking? No, not at all; no saints here :) But i was aware and at least tried to be otherwise.

Let's not forget climax releases huge amounts of stress relieving hormones. So are our desires actually just a symptom of high stress? I know i was most vulnerable to temptation when bored/lonely/stressed/hungover (!). The thread for pornography i think delves into this area very well - it may help you since it's not just young men who experience these conflicting emotions. I was quite astonished by the frankness of the discussion.

What has occupied my thinking for a while is how tribes around the world 'tie up' their penises. Now i can't say whether this is modesty from a missionary invasion, or a distorted belief and/or practicality. But do they tie them up as a psychological reflection of what they're trying to achieve? I know my flapping willy would be an arousing distraction at times. So it physically restricts the appendage thus making 'resisting' easier? There are a number of tribes who have their youth 'do things', either to test their manhood (usually feets of daring) OR they have specific roles for them that channel these energies (warriors). Just some thoughts.

 

[hlat]

So I go for mutual arrangements where both of us know exactly what the score is, and we're both fine with it.

This doesn't seem like a good thing, and I disapprove.

 

[Oxajil]

I don't know about cold, it's not like the weird clinical environment of prostitution, but I get what you mean. And you are right, theoretically about discipline and self control, but I tried 2 years of being a monk and found it to be pretty much impossible practically. There is also still a certain amount of cognitive dissonance over the fact that sex is pretty much ubiquitously accepted and celebrated in all areas of society, but this is the only place where I can feel ashamed for having a sex drive and acting on it.

That's because society is pretty much ponerized, it's accepted and celebrated in unhealthy ways. It basically comes down to you using these girls to meet your needs, and vice versa. Simple as that. Of course, society and some of your friends may think it's not that big of a deal (Yolo and all), but there it is.

Anyhow, from a POV of a girl around your age, you may also want to look into the factor of peer pressure. I have male friends around your age, and they don't do the same thing as you do. I suppose it's different with everyone, though what I have noticed is that certain group of friends think and often do alike.

Maybe you'll get tired of this lifestyle at some point. I personally don't think it's a respectful way to treat yourself and others. And, even though cliché and easier said than done, I think that where there is a will, there's a way. And to stay on-topic, what kind of impression do you think (clever) girls will have of you? In all honesty, promiscuity, I think, won't leave a good impression on someone. Well, just some thoughts.

 

[Joe]

this is the only place where I can feel ashamed for having a sex drive and acting on it.

Are you glad that you can come here for a guilt trip or would you prefer it were otherwise? What I mean is, do you hope to get "straightened" out by members here, or are you maybe looking for validation? Just wondering, sincere question.

 

[Carl]

this is the only place where I can feel ashamed for having a sex drive and acting on it.

Are you glad that you can come here for a guilt trip or would you prefer it were otherwise? What I mean is, do you hope to get "straightened" out by members here, or are you maybe looking for validation? Just wondering, sincere question.

It's not an either/or thing in this case. I don't know whether I should feel guilty for being basically STS, or whether it is unreasonable to feel guilt over a consensual act between 2 people. I got involved in this thread and posted in order to get some feedback on this, because since getting back to university I can sense my personal reality falling out of step with the consensus view we have here. And when that happens it's pretty much a 99.9% likelihood that I'm wrong and y'all are right, but I just can't seem to see it.


This should really become a swamp post, though.

 

[luke wilson]

My rather promiscuous lady friend told me that their is no such thing as casual sex for a girl. If a girl tells you it was casual, she is lying either to you or herself. I don't know why but I believe her, though that doesn't mean girls aren't happy to go around sleeping.

IMO Carl, the way you describe your lifestyle in this arena makes it appear rather promiscuous. But I can't judge, many great men in history were promiscuous and I suppose as Shelly said it's all nothing but lessons and relationships even of the most transient kind offer the grounds for accelerated learning in this world. Someone like me is learning one enforced lesson in this arena, the art of being alone... I must have been a very naughty boy in a previous life because the universe knows very well I have zero to no will power yet it locks me out i.e. an addictive personality that is denied one of the greatest addictions on this Planet.

The way you described your need to have sex made it appear like you have this hunger inside you. If your need is that great, mine must be going supernova right now as I have 4 years on you and I'm a stone cold virgin surrounded by beautiful women everywhere and all sorts of stuff that is designed to get your heart racing.

In short Carl, I side with Oxajil in that you may have created a narrative for yourself. However, I am not saying you shouldn't be how you are and you should definitely not look down upon those social skills that make your experiences possible. I think you should just be honest and say you don't particularly like a girl for who she is as a person, her history, her story... but you like her for her body and how it makes you feel. If you truly loved the opposite sex as people who have stories/history, then you wouldn't be sleeping around with many and seeing no value in who they truly are - how is that possible, to see people and sleep around at the same time? But hey, that's a virgin's perspective right there which you should take with a huge pinch of salt as it may be highly idealized.

Either way, as long as you are not hurting anyone and they know the score and you also know the score, then I guess no foul no harm and you shouldn't feel morally reprehensible.

 

[Joe]

It's not an either/or thing in this case. I don't know whether I should feel guilty for being basically STS, or whether it is unreasonable to feel guilt over a consensual act between 2 people. I got involved in this thread and posted in order to get some feedback on this, because since getting back to university I can sense my personal reality falling out of step with the consensus view we have here. And when that happens it's pretty much a 99.9% likelihood that I'm wrong and y'all are right, but I just can't seem to see it.

No one should feel guilty for being STS, that's like a dog feeling guilty for being a dog. I think that, as always, it's a matter of striving to 'rise' and making choices in the moment, each moment, as they arrive. It's in that "struggle between yes and no" as Gurdjieff describes it that we have a chance to make progress to whatever destination awaits. There are no hard and fast rules about what a person should do in any given moment, it's a process of learning and discovery. As the C's say, once you've learned, you've learned, you "plug it in", but it takes repeated attempts to seat that learning. The only thing approaching the idea of "sin" (although it's in no way a judgment by anyone or any thing) is when we consciously choose to go against what we have learned through hard experience to be the 'right way' for us and for our 'soul', because at that point we are more or less conscious of acting against our own higher goals.

 

[Windmill knight]

It's not an either/or thing in this case. I don't know whether I should feel guilty for being basically STS, or whether it is unreasonable to feel guilt over a consensual act between 2 people. I got involved in this thread and posted in order to get some feedback on this, because since getting back to university I can sense my personal reality falling out of step with the consensus view we have here. And when that happens it's pretty much a 99.9% likelihood that I'm wrong and y'all are right, but I just can't seem to see it.


This should really become a swamp post, though.

I don't think you should feel guilty about having a sex drive and trying to accommodate it into your life somehow. We've all been and/or are still there, and sex per se is not evil, as far as I can see. However, personally I'm skeptical about the idea that two people can agree to have sex only and not get somehow involved in any other way. We seem to be hardwired to identify sex with intimacy and a whole lot other things, to the point that if we managed to strip it of all those things sex would be rather boring, in my opinion. So perhaps the guilt that bothers you is that in those encounters you know there was a price to pay either for you or the other person, and you and your partners just rationalized that's not the case, but you suspect you will be told otherwise here.

 

[Carl]

Thanks for the great replies. Obviously this is pretty painful and is going to take some time to process.

It's not an either/or thing in this case. I don't know whether I should feel guilty for being basically STS, or whether it is unreasonable to feel guilt over a consensual act between 2 people. I got involved in this thread and posted in order to get some feedback on this, because since getting back to university I can sense my personal reality falling out of step with the consensus view we have here. And when that happens it's pretty much a 99.9% likelihood that I'm wrong and y'all are right, but I just can't seem to see it.

No one should feel guilty for being STS, that's like a dog feeling guilty for being a dog. I think that, as always, it's a matter of striving to 'rise' and making choices in the moment, each moment, as they arrive. It's in that "struggle between yes and no" as Gurdjieff describes it that we have a chance to make progress to whatever destination awaits. There are no hard and fast rules about what a person should do in any given moment, it's a process of learning and discovery. As the C's say, once you've learned, you've learned, you "plug it in", but it takes repeated attempts to seat that learning. The only thing approaching the idea of "sin" (although it's in no way a judgment by anyone or any thing) is when we consciously choose to go against what we have learned through hard experience to be the 'right way' for us and for our 'soul', because at that point we are more or less conscious of acting against our own higher goals.

This really boils it down succinctly. I've always found it frustrating that I cannot seem to make solid, meaningful change without learning on my own "the hard way", despite the obvious truth of the words of advice given to me beforehand. In fact, that's like a meta-lesson in and of itself.

 

[luke wilson]

I'm lovesick at the mo, really putting me in a bad/self loathing place. I see/chat to this woman pretty much everyday - she's an employee of mine and in a happy relationship and generally we meet up most days at the same time to walk dogs! I've never had a girlfriend. I end up withdrawing from people I have feelings for and do a "I dont care about you" act and so this week have been staying away and not walking with her and not being really chatty and then hating myself after for being such a prat. I tried Plenty of fish a couple of weeks ago thinking that might help but after sending 40 messages to local girls and getting zero responses it just made me feel so bad I quit. I have problems with rejection and confrontation, I know this cause a old lady in a dream told me. lol

I'm hoping the EE (which I started this week will help me 'man-up' and behave in a more proper and healthy manner and help with my own self loathing.

Everytime I see this girl it just makes me feel so depressed, really bad and I think there's a combo of starting keto and just starting EE which is adding to my low vibes.

Anyone been lovesick? How did you deal with it? Is me staying away the right thing to do or pathetic? Do I just need a kick up the arse?

Jamie

I have. My first ever post was driven by love-sickness and more recently.


Mugatea, all I can say is good luck. No happy ending to this story. How do you deal with it? Well... if my experience is anything to go by, you don't deal with it, rather the situation deals with you.

I tried tinder... no matches. I know how you feel regarding your plenty of fish experience...

Added: If you are starting out on Keto, get the supplement 5-HTP. Helps to keep your mood rather light.

 

[Flow]

I'm lovesick at the mo, really putting me in a bad/self loathing place. I see/chat to this woman pretty much everyday - she's an employee of mine and in a happy relationship and generally we meet up most days at the same time to walk dogs! I've never had a girlfriend. I end up withdrawing from people I have feelings for and do a "I dont care about you" act and so this week have been staying away and not walking with her and not being really chatty and then hating myself after for being such a prat. I tried Plenty of fish a couple of weeks ago thinking that might help but after sending 40 messages to local girls and getting zero responses it just made me feel so bad I quit. I have problems with rejection and confrontation, I know this cause a old lady in a dream told me. lol

I'm hoping the EE (which I started this week will help me 'man-up' and behave in a more proper and healthy manner and help with my own self loathing.

Everytime I see this girl it just makes me feel so depressed, really bad and I think there's a combo of starting keto and just starting EE which is adding to my low vibes.

Anyone been lovesick? How did you deal with it? Is me staying away the right thing to do or pathetic? Do I just need a kick up the arse?

Jamie

Hey Jamie, what I've noticed in relationship and many others emotional situations is that, when I have an urge to do something and when there are so many different feelings connected to that situation, first of all, there is a great chance that I don't see things clear. I don't see things clear because I'm overwhelmed with all these opposite feelings. And the urge means that there is/are some program/s running. So, it is not that I do something because I want to, but I react, I do things because I need to, I can't resist and so on. After that usually comes the feeling of regret and thought like: "how could I be so stupid, why didn't I see that, what was I thinking"... After that, there is a decision: "I'll never do it again, I'm done with this behavior, person". And after that I do it again, everything is the same and it goes in cycles.

So, what I've learned form that is that I can't deal with it (only) intellectually or by decision or will. Those situations seems to me like they are repeating and the same set of feelings appeals, and it's like they're "out of time". Those are complex things and require working on myself.
I don't think I'm the right person for giving advice on this because I haven't yet fixed none of my problems, but maybe some reflection, meditation on that, more time with yourself would be OK (and I know it's easy to say and hard to do...)?
And about EE, I recently was in similar situation and I got an advice to slow down a little, particularly with round-breathing part.

Hold on! :)