Greece: debt, creditors, austerity measures, Syriza, Varoufakis, Troika

Mr. Premise said:
I don't know, Spyraal, I don't think that the PTB will ever allow a truly radical left party to take over in a European country (radical right is another thing). Just read about Operation Gladio and what they did in Italy in the postwar period to prevent a government with the Communists involved. And Operation Gladio had a big "stay behind" contingent in Greece as well (the LOK) which I'm sure is well ensconced in the military and security sectors.

But who knows, things are fluid.

Right. What i'm seeing more possible is the frustration of Greek people channeling into Golden Dawn, them gaining support from these recent developments. They're already there to capitalize popularity with their eurosceptism, with next "logical" party for Greeks to depend on. Right now there's also in Ukraine Right Sector group getting more out of control. Imagine Europe's situation if these two parties would gain strong political position. That would further feed the radical nationalist movements in Europe and who knows what.
 
Seppo Ilmarinen said:
Mr. Premise said:
I don't know, Spyraal, I don't think that the PTB will ever allow a truly radical left party to take over in a European country (radical right is another thing). Just read about Operation Gladio and what they did in Italy in the postwar period to prevent a government with the Communists involved. And Operation Gladio had a big "stay behind" contingent in Greece as well (the LOK) which I'm sure is well ensconced in the military and security sectors.

But who knows, things are fluid.

Right. What i'm seeing more possible is the frustration of Greek people channeling into Golden Dawn, them gaining support from these recent developments. They're already there to capitalize popularity with their eurosceptism, with next "logical" party for Greeks to depend on. Right now there's also in Ukraine Right Sector group getting more out of control. Imagine Europe's situation if these two parties would gain strong political position. That would further feed the radical nationalist movements in Europe and who knows what.
This is plausible and probably has been the game all along. Also ties into the recent article on sott about the militarily build up with the American forces in Europe. are we heading for dis-order all over Europe. There is no way the Greek people will accept what the parliament has voted for.

Staged violence will exasperate the problems for everyone there and play into the PTB hands. I feel for the Greek people as currently there doesn't look like any choices at all available to them. My thoughts are with all the ordinary Greek people at this time.
 
I personally think they've gone to far on this one. I'm not sure how they will be able to contain the disturbance from their actions. I would be gobsmacked if the Greek people quietly receded into submission. Its to much what the PTB have done here, just to much. I think they think they can contain the situation like they did in Iraq, Libya etc, where there wasn't much blowback from the general population.

This deal is unsustainable and they've put a huge swathe of the population in a position where they have nothing to lose. Since this is pretty much colonialism in Greece, maybe you'll get rebellions but those ptb are so sneaky as the people wont know where to direct their anger in order to undo the situation.
 
I'm reminded of the C's saying WWII and the Nazi abomination was a trial run. The chaos and fires being spread for the last decade and a half (not to mention those before then) seem to be about to engulf Europe. And there's been signs of a controlled burn in USA for a while now too. Also reminds me of when the C's said more recently that (paraphrasing) people will unite in suffering (as they missed all other opportunities to unite).
 
This is devastating ......

Germany Wastes No Time, Puts Greece "For Sale" On Craigslist
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-16/todays-craigslist-firesale-special-greece

As seen on Germany's Craigslist...


For sale are some recently acquired Greek assets for sale:
•Acropolis € 4B OBO
•Greek Parliament Building Syntagma Square + € 8.5B OBO
•Greek Island Aegina € 10B OBO
•Greek Island Mykonos € 13B OBO
•Athens International Airport € 7B OBO

If interested, please contact:
•Angela Merkel:: +49 (0) 30-220 70-0
•Wolfgang Schäuble: +49 (0) 30 18 682-0

Serious buyers only please.
 
SeekinTruth said:
I'm reminded of the C's saying WWII and the Nazi abomination was a trial run. The chaos and fires being spread for the last decade and a half (not to mention those before then) seem to be about to engulf Europe. And there's been signs of a controlled burn in USA for a while now too. Also reminds me of when the C's said more recently that (paraphrasing) people will unite in suffering (as they missed all other opportunities to unite).

Been thinking a lot as well about the situation in Greece, and whats coming down the road for humanity - it felt like something "snapped" earlier this week af the bailout "deal" was accepted; a desired timeline coming into place by the 3d/4d STS controllers perhaps ? I've been a bit uneasy since, and i think all the things the C's have mentioned are now coming to pass...

Latest updates from RT on the situation in Greece:

Greek banking system to collapse without 3rd bailout – ESM
http://www.rt.com/business/310022-greek-banking-system-collapse/

War on Twitter: #BoycottGermany trending over #BoycottGreece
http://www.rt.com/news/310055-germany-greece-twitter-boycott/
 
Syriza looks like a circus: First they make a referendum when it should have been decision of the government itself. Then they mobilize the people to a farce. Third, and worst, betrayed the majority in the plebiscite, accepting worse conditions than the previous. A real disaster. To be credible, the first thing that Syriza should have done is having processed to the previous government. Second, not allow corrupt millionaires take the money out of the country...And nothing. It's not only no longer showing any power, it is that they are also irresponsible with the terrible consequences that this will have for the people. Again, nothing at all: social-democratic nihilism.

spyraal said:
Alana said:
Ok, so you get rid of the current government. But with who/what do you replace it?

After this, the plan for Greece would be to have a major constitutional reform. Actually Greece needs a brand new Constitution. It needs a legal and moral Rebirth. This would first facilitate to refute any further payments for the odious public debt, but I won't elaborate more on that now. But also it would be an opportunity for a new start, a major reset of all the tweaks and legal provisions inserted and imposed during all these past decades to serve the agenda of corrupt governments. Much like what Iceland tried to do, in the so called "crowd-sourced" constitutional draft. The new constitution of Iceland was written and edited by the people, approved through a referendum, but was ultimately stopped by the Parliament (no wonder). One can check out the Icelandic experience here http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2014/07/five_lessons_from_iceland_s_failed_crowdsourced_constitution_experiment.2.html

Greeks should go one step further by re-instating real Democracy in it's true and original form, called also Direct Democracy, by abolishing current form of Representative Democracy that most Westerns countries use up to now and actually is but a farce. That would put an end to the political parties and the false choices and dichotomies they represent. In the original Athenian democracy, random citizens were elected for a short term service to hold government positions. These randomly elected citizens had no power to make policies on their own. They would just follow and execute the decision of the Assembly of Citizens. The only other modern version of direct democracy in today's terms, we can find in Switzerland, where citizens are called about 4 times a year through direct vote and referendums to decide for the government policies. (check: Voting in Switzerland in Wikipedia). Greece, being the birthplace of Democracy has all the background and know-how do this, more than any other nation potentially. And the country is about the right size too. And actually, there has been a lot of groundwork already done in Greece in that direction by various groups and individuals.

So people don't really need professional politicians to represent them, Leftist or Right wing parties, and the lot. They only need a framework of real and Direct Democracy, a constitution that is made to serve them and not the elites. This is the only way to go for Greece, for both practical and historical reasons. And on the smoking ruins of the current political system and our almost destroyed country, we have the perfect opportunity for a true rebirth of Democracy. Because only Direct Democracy equals real People Power. This is the goal.
It's a very interesting topic. Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, and Germany too, are partitocracy (state of parties) without democracy. We should discuss exactly that, it makes sense a return to the old democracy, direct with assemblies?. I do not believe it. I think the only democracy that can work is the American, the representative one, which discovered the founding fathers of America. Another thing is that there then corporations, "supra-state" (with imperialist-psychopathic profile) have taken control of the state, especially since the emission of the national currency remained in private hands. But in Europe, perhaps worldwide, a democracy like the US with major changes in legislation (to control those powers, for example from the financial secrecy, that can corrupting elected officials) could be huge. Remember that the US authorities, after World War II, did not allow their democracy exists in Western Europe and imposed partitocracy everywhere (but they called democracy). Obviously, for imperialist reasons...Well, maybe it would be nice to open a different thread about that?.

spyraal said:
As a conclusion, things are very difficult for Tsipras. And although the attempted division of SYRIZA has been quite successful, it might also lead to the birth and formation of a new and this time truly radical political formation that has a real potential to enjoy more popular support than Tsipras and SYRIZA ever had, especially after the harsh and humiliating treatment of Greece Tsipras approved. And this is something I doubt the PTB were planning or counting for. Maybe this realization has something to do with the IMF's recent incredible statements about the need to provide a major relief to Greece as it concerns the payments of it's national debt. They may want to de-polarize the current situation that only leads to Tsipras' humiliation and decline, and by extend to the "side-effect" of the the creation of this new and more radical center of gravity in Greek politics I mentioned above...
Hopefully be true the appearance of this new formation. But in Greece there is an oligarchy of parties, including the current government and probably the same be true for anyone that replace them. I do not think anything can be changed without a change of constitution, and that must be conquered by people, which should open a constituent process to change the state model. In other words, there must be a rupture. Any reform with the constitution of the oligarchs will only aggravate the situation.
 
Saker's take on the Greek "democracy":
http://thesaker.is/democracy-is-a-farce-the-greek-example-in-numbers/

I read this morning that Schauble is saying that it would be better if Greece exits the Euro currency (at least temporarily) than the current austerity package to solve the problems. This thing can still drag on and on, because the other parliaments still have to approve it. Also, when the full investigation of the Greek parliamentary Commission to investigate the legality of the debt is finished, they will have a legal means to neutralize all this and just declare the odious debt illegal and fraudulent. Any new terms on the old fraud is still part of the fraud. The evidence of the fraud and corruption is overwhelming, including Goldman Sachs' role in it. We'll see.
 
l apprenti de forgeron said:
spyraal said:
As a conclusion, things are very difficult for Tsipras. And although the attempted division of SYRIZA has been quite successful, it might also lead to the birth and formation of a new and this time truly radical political formation that has a real potential to enjoy more popular support than Tsipras and SYRIZA ever had, especially after the harsh and humiliating treatment of Greece Tsipras approved. And this is something I doubt the PTB were planning or counting for. Maybe this realization has something to do with the IMF's recent incredible statements about the need to provide a major relief to Greece as it concerns the payments of it's national debt. They may want to de-polarize the current situation that only leads to Tsipras' humiliation and decline, and by extend to the "side-effect" of the the creation of this new and more radical center of gravity in Greek politics I mentioned above...

Hopefully be true the appearance of this new formation. But in Greece there is an oligarchy of parties, including the current government and probably the same be true for anyone that replace them. I do not think anything can be changed without a change of constitution, and that must be conquered by people, which should open a constituent process to change the state model. In other words, there must be a rupture. Any reform with the constitution of the oligarchs will only aggravate the situation.

This is a kind of a chicken-egg situation really. The current Greek Constitution has the provisions that under normal circumstances require the Parliament's approval for it's reform. But on the other hand, it also states that the highest source of authority comes from the people. So, one way to go would indeed be a new political formation that would then invoke the constitutional reform process after being installed in government by the people. But the other way would be for the people to exercise their supreme authority that the Constitution grants them, to reform it on their own initiative. Of course this would appear to be like a kind of "revolution" but even the current Greek Constitution, damaged and twisted as it has become with ponerized inserts through the years, still allows for such possibility. The Greek Constitution has 120 articles. Not by accident but rather having a symbolic connotation, the very last one goes as follows:

Article 120:
1. This Constitution is signed by the 5th Revisionist Greek Parliament Assembly, signed by the President of the Democracy and the Council of Ministers and is valid from the July 11th 1975.
2. Respect to the Constitution and all laws that conform with it, together with dedication to the Homeland and Democracy are the fundamental obligation of all Greeks.
3. The usurpation, in any way, of the people's authority and powers that come from it will be prosecuted accordingly as soon as the lawful people's authority is restored.
4. Finally, the protection of the Constitution is a task appointed to the patriotism of the Greeks, who have the right and obligation to resist using any and all means against whoever is trying to impose it's cancellation.

This exactly the article quoted by Zoe Konstantopoulou, the remarkable woman that is currently President of the Parliament, on her speech just before the recent humiliating and colonial in nature agreement plan was put to vote. Most of the "reforms" of this recent and also past agreements with Greece's lenders and blackmailers, are actually a violation of fundamental articles of the Constitution. As she stated, Greeks are actually given not only the right, but the obligation to oppose it's violation using any and all means.

As it concerns the question of Direct Democracy versus Representative Democracy in the style of the American founding fathers, I won't expand here and a new thread would be indeed a nice idea. I will only say that American founding fathers were mostly inspired by ancient Greek political philosopher Plato and others, and they did not actually invent a lot of stuff really. They just picked, readjusted and rephrased already known concepts and formulas. It was a good and decent try but hardly innovative. The subject of politics and the various possible forms of rule for a state was of such interest and thus so well studied by ancient Greeks, that there is but little room for anything really new and truly innovating. Proof of that is found even in the architectural elements of Congress, White House and other prominent state buildings, where the replication of mostly Greek (and some Roman) elements is evidence of their overall source of influence. But "by their fruits you shall judge them": Direct Democracy of ancient Athens gave birth to a Golden Age out of which many of the things that what we now consider core elements of Western Civilization came to be. What was and mainly what is left nowadays of the contribution of the Representative Democracy of USA's founding fathers to the global heritage? Pretty much the modern world as we see and know it today... But it would be indeed nice to have this interesting subject on another thread.

Thank you,
:)
 
Latest update from RT on the situation:

Germany OKs negotiations for 3rd Greek bailout deal
http://www.rt.com/business/310088-greece-bailout-germany-vote/
 
From RT today :

‘Greatest disaster’: Varoufakis says new Greek bailout doomed
http://www.rt.com/news/310182-greece-bailout-fail-varoufakis/

Excerpts from the article :
“This programme is going to fail whoever undertakes its implementation,” he said. Asked when will it fail, he replied, “It has failed already.”

Varoufakis stressed that in given conditions Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, who himself does not believe in the bailout, had little option but to sign the agreement. “We were given a choice between being executed and capitulating. And he decided that capitulation was the ultimate strategy,” Varoufakis said.
 
Just saw this documentary which was shared on facebook and must say it's really, really excellent! It shows in detail the incredible corruption and undemocratic tyranny of the Troika and the consequences of their inhuman actions. It makes me so angry and sad - all these people's lives that are being destroyed in order to transfer money/energy to the psychos, while the media brainwashes people into believing we live in "freedom and democracy"!!!

It's called "The Trail of the Troika", here are some links:


English version: _https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLB3uu1IXM0

German version: _https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRRPi_BaqDA

French version: _https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYGOWUrHcI0


Interestingly, it was made by Harald Schumann, a German mainstream journalist, one of the last real journalists in the mainstream I guess - with funding from some of the state-owned broadcasters (arte and rbb). This makes it a good one to send to people having problems with "fringe" outlets, I think.

Here's the film's description:

http://www.newdocs.de/the-trail-of-the-troika/ said:
What is happening in Europe in the name of troika? A must-see for anyone who wants to understand the situation in Greece and find out why the austerity policy imposed by Germany has failed. The European Union and International Monetary Fund have lent more than 400 billion euro to Greece, Ireland, Portugal and Cyprus to keep these countries solvent. The lenders granted enormous power to the three institutions of the so called troika: the IMF, the European Central Bank and the European Commission. Without any public accountability, the troika is forcing the crisis states to implement policies that are tearing the social fabric of their countries apart. German journalist and best-selling author Harald Schumann travelled to Athens, Lisbon, Dublin, Nicosia, Brussels, Washington, New York and London, in order to find out who has actually benefited from austerity measures. He puts this question to ministers, parliamentarians, economists, bankers, doctors and also to the victims of these policies, the unemployed and the ill. Among the many people we meet are Nobel Prize winner Paul Krugman, IMF Director Paulo Batista and Yanis Varoufakis, the newly elected Greek finance minister. Schumann’s revelations are often devastating and shocking. Given the negotiations currently taking place between the newly elected Greek government and their European partners, this film is of great political and economic relevance.

Current Affairs / Economy
Length 90‘ / 52′ / 45′ HD
Film by Harald Schumann, Árpád Bondy
Co-Production Árpád Bondy Filmproduktion with RBB/ARTE, 2015
Original title Macht ohne Kontrolle – die Troika / Puissante et incontrôlée – la Troika
 
Pepe Escobar just posted this statement about Putin and greece:

https://www.facebook.com/pepe.escobar.77377/posts/10153455933851678?pnref=story said:
This is HUGE, if true. Only Varoufakis has the answer. And he's not talking.

IF true, I can see EXACTLY why Vlad did it. Angie must have been speechless. She now owes the "unity of the euro" - and unity of the EU for that matter - to Vlad.

Check, mate.


The article he is refering to is this one:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-21/tsipras-asked-putin-10-billion-print-drachmas-greek-media-reports
 
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