Greece: debt, creditors, austerity measures, Syriza, Varoufakis, Troika

[Cosmos]

Pepe Escobar just posted this statement about Putin and greece:

This is HUGE, if true. Only Varoufakis has the answer. And he's not talking.

IF true, I can see EXACTLY why Vlad did it. Angie must have been speechless. She now owes the "unity of the euro" - and unity of the EU for that matter - to Vlad.

Check, mate.

The article he is refering to is this one:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-21/tsipras-asked-putin-10-billion-print-drachmas-greek-media-reports

That doesn't correspond with the repeated statements from Putin and his government, that they could think about helping greece, but that the greece government did not ask for it as of now.

 

[mkrnhr]

Apparently it wasn't true: _https://www.rt.com/business/310454-greece-drachma-russia-tsipras/

The Kremlin has denied Greek newspaper reports that Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras had asked President Putin for $10 billion to print drachma. Presidential spokesman Dmitry Peskov says Russia has never been asked for aid.

 

[Mr.Cyan]

Apparently it wasn't true: _https://www.rt.com/business/310454-greece-drachma-russia-tsipras/

The Kremlin has denied Greek newspaper reports that Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras had asked President Putin for $10 billion to print drachma. Presidential spokesman Dmitry Peskov says Russia has never been asked for aid.

Im inclined to agree that it wasn't true as well. As Aeneas commented earlier with regards the to the MSM in Greece being controlled mostly by the Empire; plus we know that Putin has a conscience, and he would not likely treat the lives of Greek people as pawns. But then again, as Pepe mentioned, if it was true, we can understand why it was done as geopolitically having Germany "owe you one" and closer to Russia long term is a good move...well, i hope its not true...

 

[mabar]

Apparently it wasn't true: _https://www.rt.com/business/310454-greece-drachma-russia-tsipras/

The Kremlin has denied Greek newspaper reports that Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras had asked President Putin for $10 billion to print drachma. Presidential spokesman Dmitry Peskov says Russia has never been asked for aid.

Im inclined to agree that it wasn't true as well. As Aeneas commented earlier with regards the to the MSM in Greece being controlled mostly by the Empire; plus we know that Putin has a conscience, and he would not likely treat the lives of Greek people as pawns. But then again, as Pepe mentioned, if it was true, we can understand why it was done as geopolitically having Germany "owe you one" and closer to Russia long term is a good move...well, i hope its not true...

I had been reading that is not that easy to print whatever currency that fast, the only country which can do it is China, because it has the structure to do so, but found this from 2012 -it seems the print/rumor of dhracma is not new. That made me wonder if closing banks might had been an excuse to do other technical arrangements, if this is true, to go back to dhracma as an example, as other european currecies might do, though. I do need learn more how all this monetary/banking/currencies etc... issues work, but find interesting what and how arguments are mentioned here: _http://www.thecommentator.com/article/1277/has_the_world_s_largest_banknote_printer_already_printed_the_post_euro_currencies

 

[Goemon_]

Apparently it wasn't true: _https://www.rt.com/business/310454-greece-drachma-russia-tsipras/

The Kremlin has denied Greek newspaper reports that Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras had asked President Putin for $10 billion to print drachma. Presidential spokesman Dmitry Peskov says Russia has never been asked for aid.

Im inclined to agree that it wasn't true as well. As Aeneas commented earlier with regards the to the MSM in Greece being controlled mostly by the Empire; plus we know that Putin has a conscience, and he would not likely treat the lives of Greek people as pawns. But then again, as Pepe mentioned, if it was true, we can understand why it was done as geopolitically having Germany "owe you one" and closer to Russia long term is a good move...well, i hope its not true...

I had been reading that is not that easy to print whatever currency that fast, the only country which can do it is China, because it has the structure to do so, but found this from 2012 -it seems the print/rumor of dhracma is not new. That made me wonder if closing banks might had been an excuse to do other technical arrangements, if this is true, to go back to dhracma as an example, as other european currecies might do, though. I do need learn more how all this monetary/banking/currencies etc... issues work, but find interesting what and how arguments are mentioned here: _http://www.thecommentator.com/article/1277/has_the_world_s_largest_banknote_printer_already_printed_the_post_euro_currencies

As far as I understand it, it is not possible for a european country to get out of the euro currency without leaving the European Union.

 

[Mr. Premise]

Apparently it wasn't true: _https://www.rt.com/business/310454-greece-drachma-russia-tsipras/

The Kremlin has denied Greek newspaper reports that Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras had asked President Putin for $10 billion to print drachma. Presidential spokesman Dmitry Peskov says Russia has never been asked for aid.

Just because they denied it doesn't mean it isn't true.

 

[mabar]

Apparently it wasn't true: _https://www.rt.com/business/310454-greece-drachma-russia-tsipras/

The Kremlin has denied Greek newspaper reports that Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras had asked President Putin for $10 billion to print drachma. Presidential spokesman Dmitry Peskov says Russia has never been asked for aid.

Im inclined to agree that it wasn't true as well. As Aeneas commented earlier with regards the to the MSM in Greece being controlled mostly by the Empire; plus we know that Putin has a conscience, and he would not likely treat the lives of Greek people as pawns. But then again, as Pepe mentioned, if it was true, we can understand why it was done as geopolitically having Germany "owe you one" and closer to Russia long term is a good move...well, i hope its not true...

I had been reading that is not that easy to print whatever currency that fast, the only country which can do it is China, because it has the structure to do so, but found this from 2012 -it seems the print/rumor of dhracma is not new. That made me wonder if closing banks might had been an excuse to do other technical arrangements, if this is true, to go back to dhracma as an example, as other european currecies might do, though. I do need learn more how all this monetary/banking/currencies etc... issues work, but find interesting what and how arguments are mentioned here: _http://www.thecommentator.com/article/1277/has_the_world_s_largest_banknote_printer_already_printed_the_post_euro_currencies

As far as I understand it, it is not possible for a european country to get out of the euro currency without leaving the European Union.

That's what we/I, you etc... had been told/read/heard, isn't it?, but when there is a "not possible" escenario, it is because it exists a "possible escenario", just recently read about "Plan Z", is interesting to read something that happend in the past in order to understand this present, of course, I do lack a lot of information about this, that sometimes I think I may be wasting my time, but is interesting, anyways ... here is this article that talks about it (a conspiracy theory, that cannot be discarded at all, I think): Inside Europe’s Plan Z _http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0ac1306e-d508-11e3-9187-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3gkDS1Txl

 

[luc]

Yes, this is a very good documentary.

It was posted on the forum here.

Thanks Nicolas, I missed that post and a quick search didn't yield anything - I guess it's good though to have a thread in the movie section, since I think people (myself included) sometimes check this section for something interesting to watch.

BTW, I find it fascinating that with those interviewed on the film, you somehow can immediately tell if they are "good" or "evil", on which side they're standing so to speak. Of course it's not always that black and white, but the "bad guys" just radiate such a blatant suppression of their being/their soul (if they have one) with their body language, the language they use is so extremely shallow and in general they don't seem very bright. I noticed this in other documentaries as well. The "good guys" on the other hand show passion, are able to make finer points, and just seem to be much more "with themselves". Just an observation.

 

[Nicholas]

BTW, I find it fascinating that with those interviewed on the film, you somehow can immediately tell if they are "good" or "evil", on which side they're standing so to speak. Of course it's not always that black and white, but the "bad guys" just radiate such a blatant suppression of their being/their soul (if they have one) with their body language, the language they use is so extremely shallow and in general they don't seem very bright. I noticed this in other documentaries as well. The "good guys" on the other hand show passion, are able to make finer points, and just seem to be much more "with themselves". Just an observation.

Yes luc, I observed that as well. It was pretty startling to me. Like the "bad guys" were answering to someone or something higher to them whereas the "good guys" were answering from their consciousness.

 

[Alana]

Alexander Mercouris posted the following yesterday. He has a new theory involving the Greek oligarchy and it sounds plausible. We should wait and see what he says during/after his Greek trip when he's done some investigation on the ground:

Alexander Mercouris
Yesterday at 5:21am · Edited ·

BEWARE THE TALL TALES COMING OUT OF GREECE

Ever since the latest bailout agreement misinformation to justify it has been pouring out of Greece.

Much of this centres on the impracticability of supposed plans for a Grexit and of the “revolutionary” nature of the individuals who hatched them.

Varoufakis has claimed authorship of some of these plans. Others are attributed to the former Energy Minister and leader of Syriza’s Left Platform, Panagiotis Lafantzanis.

Varoufakis’s plan, which he claims to have presented to Tsipras at the last moment as the referendum results were coming in, was for the Greek government to start handing out electronic IOUs in place of a currency. This would have been accompanied by capital controls, the nationalisation of the banks and the seizure of the government’s revenue office and of the Bank of Greece.

Varoufakis claims that this plan was prepared by the five man group based within the Finance Ministry he set up back in February. Apparently this group carried out its work in total secrecy and - in a bizarre twist - even hacked into the Finance Ministry’s own computers in order to prepare its plans.

Meanwhile the Financial Times has published a lurid account of a semi-secret meeting arranged by Lafantzanis and Syriza’ s Left Platform in an Athens hotel, where there was supposedly wild talk of having the governor of the Bank of Greece arrested and of seizing the hoard of euros supposedly stashed away in the Athens mint in order to keep the economy going and to pay for essential imports until a new currency was set up.

No doubt in the desperate situation caused by the Syriza government’s failure to undertake proper and timely preparations for the launch of a new currency all sorts of wild ideas were in circulation.

Not all these ideas were wild. It is constantly overlooked that because the Greek banks were bailed out by the Greek government in 2008 (a major reason why its debt burden became so catastrophically and insupportably high) they are already 80% state owned. “Nationalising” the banks would not therefore have been an act of revolutionary confiscation or of appropriation of private property. It would have simply meant the state taking operational control of the banks by replacing their managements by new managements appointed by and accountable directly to the government.

Implementing extreme steps such as seizing the Bank of Greece and the mint and issuing IOUs would nonetheless have provoked a major crisis in Greece. The economy would have been thrown into turmoil, with much of the population and the business community refusing to accept the IOUs of a bankrupt government as a credible substitute for actual money.

Acting in such a way would also have completely antagonised the EU leaders, who would have been bound to construe such steps as a declaration of economic war, and who would undoubtedly have responded by suspending the Greek government’s participation in the EU’s central institutions on the grounds that it was in breach of the fundamental provisions of Article 2 of the Treaty of the European Union.

Putting all that aside, what no one has explained is why any of these schemes were necessary.

Implicit in Varoufakis’s various “plans” and in the scheme the Financial Times attributes to Lafantzanis is the strange idea that preparing a new currency was something that needed to be done in secret and which would have had to be improvised at the last moment.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Far from the introduction of a new currency being something that would have been resisted across Greece and Europe, we know it would have had the backing of the German Finance Ministry, of Wolfgang Schauble and of the IMF.

According to the British writer Tariq Ali, as long ago as February Schauble was offering Varoufakis 50 billion euros and help with an orderly Grexit. Tariq Ali describes the offer in this way:

“It is now known that Schäuble offered an amicable, organised Grexit and a cheque for 50 billion euros. This was refused on the grounds that it would seem to be a capitulation. This is bizarre logic. It would have preserved Greek sovereignty, and if Syriza had taken charge of the Greek banking system a recovery could have been planned on its terms. The offer was repeated later. ‘How much do you want to leave the Eurozone?’ Schäuble asked Varoufakis just before the referendum. Again Schäuble was snubbed. Of course the Germans made the offer for their own reasons, but a planned Grexit would have been far better for Greece than what has happened.”

No one in Greece is denying this story and in fact I am told it is true.

I recently wrote a piece for Russia Insider in which I said that the claim that Putin rejected a request from Tsipras for $10 billion is - as the Russians say - pure fantasy. We now have indirect confirmation of this from what must ultimately be a Greek source (the one that gave the story to Tariq Ali). Why would Tsipras ask Putin for $10 billion to fund a Grexit when Schauble was offering him 50 billion euros to do the same?

Even as late as the latest EU summit the option of an orderly Grexit was on the table. Schauble - with Merkel’s (alas temporary) backing - actually proposed it. If the Greeks had agreed to it, it would have happened. The IMF, which has made known its complete lack of belief in the viability of the latest bailout, would have backed it.

Greece would have got its 50 billion euros to help it support the new currency, Schauble and the Germans would have ensured that the ECB provided the necessary liquidity to the banks to keep the banks operating until the new currency was ready, the banks could have been nationalised by mutual agreement - there being as I have said nothing revolutionary about this - capital controls would have been imposed until the new currency was ready (the Germans agreed to this when Cyprus imposed them, so why would they refuse it if sought by Greece?) and control of the Bank of Greece, the mint and the revenue service would have been transferred back to the Greek government as an indispensable element in an orderly and agreed Grexit. Meanwhile the Russians, as I reported previously, were prepared to help with essential imports of energy and (probably) food.

The Financial Times in its hit piece says the process of introducing a new currency would have taken 6-8 months, which is much less than the 18 months Varoufakis has claimed.

Actually that is far too pessimistic. The former British cabinet minister John Redwood has guesstimated it would have taken no more than 3 months. In my opinion, given financial help from the EU and the IMF and technical support e.g. from Russia, the whole process could have been carried out from beginning to end in the space of a few weeks.

Once Greece was out of the eurozone it could have agreed - if it wanted - a formal restructuring as part of a package negotiated with the IMF (the alternative of a default on the entire debt might have done irreparable damage to relations with the creditor countries). The conditions would doubtless have been tough but they would hardly have amounted to the psychopathic agreement we have now. With Greece outside the eurozone and able to regain competitiveness through a devaluation there would have been a real chance that whatever was agreed would succeed.

However one spins the ball, the reality has to be faced: a Grexit did not happen not because it was difficult to do but because the Syriza government didn’t want it.

All claims to the contrary are fairy tales, whilst the malicious spreading of stories about the various plans that were hatched in the desperate final hours before Greece’s final capitulation is being done purposefully by those who want to discredit the idea of a Grexit and those who support it.

As for the perennial claim that the Greek people want to cling on to the euro no matter what, I have previously said why since the referendum I no longer believe that claim despite what the opinion polls are alleged to say.
In my opinion far too many people go on giving Tsipras and Syriza the benefit of the doubt even though the extent of their incompetence and of their double-dealing is becoming simply impossible to ignore.

Varoufakis has in fact now admitted that the real Plan B if the negotiations for a debt write-off failed was not a Grexit - his claims to have prepared for one is so much smoke and mirrors - but a resignation of the government and the formation of a “government of national unity” consisting of the old oligarchic pro-EU parties to sign a bailout package in place of Syriza. In Varoufakis’s own words

“We are going to do all it takes to bring home a financially viable agreement. We will compromise but not be compromised. We will step back just as much as is needed to secure an agreement-solution within the Eurozone. However, if we are defeated by the catastrophic policies of the memorandum we shall step down and pass on the power to those who believe in such means; let them enforce those measures while we return to the streets.”

No word here of any plan for a Grexit.

This by the way surely provides final confirmation that my previous statement - doubted by some - that the Ambrose Evans-Pritchard story that Tsipras called the referendum in expectation of a Yes vote so as to give himself political cover to resign is true.

In my opinion such a resignation of a government elected just a few months before to bring an end to austerity would have been an extraordinary act of abdication of responsibility.

Regardless it is not what Tsipras and Syriza did.

Instead of resigning when they failed to secure a debt write-off they chose to remain in power and negotiated for Greece an even worse deal than the one they had previously rejected.

Instead of admitting that Schauble offered him a dignified way out, Varoufakis is now also busy spreading a fantastic story that Schauble was throughout plotting to expel Greece from the eurozone so that he could terrorise France to accept the economic medicine he suoposedly wants to impose on it. Varoufakis is actually claiming that Schauble told him as much.

Varoufakis’s precise words are:

"Schauble believes that the eurozone is not sustainable as it is. He believes there has to be some fiscal transfers, some degree of political union. He believes that for that political union to work without federation, without the legitimacy that a properly elected federal parliament can render, can bestow upon an executive, it will have to be done in a very disciplinary way,”

"And he said explicitly to me that a Grexit is going to equip him with sufficient terrorising power in order to impose upon the French, that which Paris has been resisting: a degree of transfer of budget making powers from Paris to Brussels.”

Does anybody seriously believe that if Schauble really did have such a plan he would have shared it with Varoufakis of all people?

The reality, as I have always said, is that Schauble adamantly opposes a debt write-off for Greece whilst it remains part of the eurozone not because he wants to terrorise France into submission but because of the disastrous precedent such a write-off might provide to other heavily indebted and bailed out eurozone states like Portugal, Spain, Cyprus and Ireland.

Obviously that is not sinister enough for Varoufakis - who has never shown the slightest understanding of Schauble’s position - which is why he attributes this bizarre plan to him.

Sad to say it seems Varoufakis was already spreading his fable about Schauble’s wicked plan to use Greece in order to terrorise France whilst the negotiations were actually underway - one reason surely why Schauble came to dislike him so much.

It could be that Varoufakis misunderstood something Schauble said to him. However I have to say that it also looks rather like an attempt by Varoufakis to play the French and the Germans off against each other - in much the same way that Tsipras was trying to play the Russians and the Europeans (and Americans) off against each other. Needless to say the ploy failed.

In fairness to Tsipras, Varoufakis and Syriza, though their tactics were manipulative and duplicitous, their objective was always what they said it was: to keep Greece in the eurozone whilst securing an end to austerity and a debt write-off.

Most people - including me - assumed that as it became clear this was impossible they would drop the euro in order to end austerity and secure the debt write-off.

In fairness to him, that is the position, when all else failed, that Varoufakis eventually adopted, though the plan he came up with is testament to his failure to prepare for a Grexit properly, as he should have done.

In Tsipras’s case however it is now clear he always intended the opposite - to drop the plan to end austerity and get a debt write-off so as to hang on to the euro.

I still come across from time to time a strange idea that Tsipras iand Syriza are agents of Soros and of the CIA.
Nothing they have done in power is consistent with that theory, which my sources insist is untrue.

By contrast I am slowly coming round to what anyone who knows Greece well would judge an altogether more plausible theory - that Tsipras and the Syriza government were a device cooked up by a part of the oligarchy to scare the Germans into granting Greece a debt write-off whilst keeping Greece in the Eurozone. The calculation was that a “pro-Russian”, “ultra left” leader, who “might fall into Putin’s embrace” was more scary and would have a better chance of securing a debt write-off than a more conventional conservative. Once it became clear that the scare wasn’t going to work, the Syriza project was shelved.

To those who say this is too complicated, my response is that for the Greek oligarchy nothing is too complicated.

This will be my working hypothesis from now on. I am planning to visit Greece soon and whilst there I will undertake certain enquiries to see if I can find out whether or not this hypothesis is true.

In the meantime I would ask people to keep a cool head in the face of all the nonsense that is now coming out of Greece. I am afraid that it is not without good reason we are known as the land of myths, legends and wondrous tales. There are far too many of those circulating over the last few days and people should be careful before they fall for them.

 

[luke wilson]

Very interesting article. This surely adds a new angle on how to look at the ongoing revelations of the ex greek finance minister since he resigned. There is just no way of truly knowing what transpired behind those closed doors. All we know are the results.

How could the German Finance minister pull off giving Greece 50 billion euros for a Grexit? I assume this would be in the form of another loan?

 

[Turgon]

Very interesting article. This surely adds a new angle on how to look at the ongoing revelations of the ex greek finance minister since he resigned. There is just no way of truly knowing what transpired behind those closed doors. All we know are the results.

How could the German Finance minister pull off giving Greece 50 billion euros for a Grexit? I assume this would be in the form of another loan?

I'm also wondering why Germany would want to finance a Grexit if it would lead to Greece nationalizing their banks. That would be following in Iceland's footsteps and even though what Mercouris says seems to make sense if Germany wants/wanted Greece in a position to one day be able to pay back it's debt, it seems to go against the PTB's modus operandi.

 

[Andrian]

Very interesting article. This surely adds a new angle on how to look at the ongoing revelations of the ex greek finance minister since he resigned. There is just no way of truly knowing what transpired behind those closed doors. All we know are the results.

How could the German Finance minister pull off giving Greece 50 billion euros for a Grexit? I assume this would be in the form of another loan?

I'm also wondering why Germany would want to finance a Grexit if it would lead to Greece nationalizing their banks. That would be following in Iceland's footsteps and even though what Mercouris says seems to make sense if Germany wants/wanted Greece in a position to one day be able to pay back it's debt, it seems to go against the PTB's modus operandi.

Yes indeed, my thoughts were the same, but what if(assuming Mercouris's hypothesis is close to the truth) the old Greek oligarchy and the TPB are all in cahoots and all that happened in/with Greece was all a charade from beginning to the end to fool the people(of Greece and of EU). What i mean is, what if the Syriza Government represents the Greek oligarchy and the Greek elite are in good relations with the TPB(since they are members of the same gang, CIA Soros are their agents as many others), they could easily play this smoke and mirrors show to fool the people and in the end both parties( the Greek elite and the TPB) are winning by tearing apart Greece, privatizing everything(gaining a massive wealth in a short time),enslaving the people thus making of Greece an example and scaring the sh*t out of the EU citizens and then the TPB can pass to the next victim in the EU and so on and so on...

...the Germans could have proposed to the Greek Government € 50 billion for a Grexit deal if they knew that they (the Greek Government) wouldn't accepted it, assuming that the whole thing was planned between the Greek elite and the TPB for the purpose of selling the whole Greece and it's people to the TPB.

Just my thoughts.

 

[luke wilson]

Well, I think its important to keep in mind that we live in a hierarchical world. Government despite all that is said about it is another sphere where the sts nature of our reality becomes self evident. Its near impossible to get to the top levels of government without being able to play the game and express the natural energies of this reality. This personally is why I am sceptical of any high powered politician out there. No way a benevolent person can get up there AND stay up there. It just goes against natural laws of this place.

Sure, they can say all the right things and for a tine do all the right things, but personally, I always keep my eyes open for the inevitable expression of what is natural in those high spheres. So Syriza, whatever the deal is, they were not some benevolent force that would restore Greece. The hierarchy in Greece is heavily entrenched in the western system i.e. therefore Greece is heavily entrenched in the western system. How can anyone think they would act any differently? No ordinary benevolent person in Greece would stand any chance at getting to the sorts of position that would allow them to exercise actions that essentially go against the surrounding hierarchical structure there. Not even by popular mandate. Most of the citizenry are brainwashed for them to express what they want in such a way that it'll make it possible to happen. That is, 9/10 times, they will make the wrong choice in choosing their leaders. They will always go for the liars who appear otherwise.

People can say whatever they want to say but the world shows clearly what is true. We live in a hierarchical world and therefore, there will always be people at the bottom and a few at the top. Applies everywhere, even in BRICS nation. Brazil is no paradise, poverty is rife, sure political corruption is rife, inequality rife, discrimination rife etc, Russia is no different, India the sane, add China to and lastly South Africa. The majority will always suffer for the benefit of the few. Just the structure of what surrounds us, both outside in the world and in our own nature as people. Ain't this what all STO channeled material has been saying?

 

[Mr.Cyan]

Thanks Alana for the post and interesting article from Alexander Mercouris.

It is certainly plausible. The decisions made by Syriza and Tsipras especially leading up to referendum and after - i think clearly show there are some hidden hands behind the scenes. It could well likely be the Greek oligarchs, as i guess they are the ones with the most to "lose" if Greece tries to reform its economy and switch to the new currency.

About Schauble offering Greece 50 Billion Euro to exit. I think this is plausible as well - as i do know that public opinion in Germany is that they dont want to foot the bill of any more bailouts etc. I recall reading an article that Merkel and CDU conduct policy and make decisions based on "think thank's" views. Basically always taking the middle path and making decisions according to the majority of the views of the German people...offcourse i guess majority views can always be shaped by their control of the media...

Time will tell, and it will be interesting to read his next analysis after his visit to Greece.