Shocking the system - Conscious Pain and Suffering

[emitflesti]

Hello everybody :)
I was wondering if anybody here could provide me some proper feedback and additional ideas about an experiment I'm about to do on myself.

A LITTLE BACKGROUND:
Over the past several days I had a thought about pain and about how the majority of us will do just about anything to avoid pain.
Unfortunately a lot of people carry the burden of physical, mental, and emotional suffering that they have no control over.

I've had the thought that pain is a double-edged sword that can either be liberating or torturous.
(Just now I noticed how torturous and tortuous have 2 different meanings but are spelled so closely to each other. Lately it seems like everywhere I look I am starting to see the "Devil is in the Details")

Some pain seems inevitable. For example, like the pain for the child and mother during birth. And possibly the transition from 3rd Density to 4th Density?

And other pains could/can/will be avoided if you have enough knowledge/experience of the perilous world around you.
Take me for example. When I got hit by a car when I was 6 years old I only looked "one way" and not "both ways". Some lessons are more painful than others. I had to endure a lot of pain for a week because 1/2 my body needed to be cleansed with Hydrogen Peroxide on my skin to prevent infection. I still can't even fathom the amount of pain that I put my mother through. That painful lesson taught me about symbolism. To get to the "other side" you need to look both ways, because "Life is a 2-way street".

Can pain also be a 2-way street?
Are some people enslaved with pain to the STS profile because they don't want to accept their own pain, so they would rather ignore, bury, or give it away to somebody else which unknowingly leads to torturing somebody else, hence the endless cycle of suffering and entrapment?

Can some people be liberated with pain to the STO profile because they have the strength, courage, compassion, empathy, and awareness to see both the Darkness/Light, Good/Evil, Subjectivity/Objectivity in the world? They realize that one cannot exist without the other.

Currently I am being my own guinea pig and trying experiments on myself for shocking my Mechanical System to experience conscious pain in a safe manor that shocks the predatory/mechanical mind without harming the body.

So far, here's all I have come up with:
1) Taking Cold Showers -
2) Weightlifting -


Right now I'm taking baby steps, so I'm trying to look for exercises that are NOT so extreme at the present moment.
Thanks!

 

[Keit]

Can pain also be a 2-way street?
Are some people enslaved with pain to the STS profile because they don't want to accept their own pain, so they would rather ignore, bury, or give it away to somebody else which unknowingly leads to torturing somebody else, hence the endless cycle of suffering and entrapment?

Can some people be liberated with pain to the STO profile because they have the strength, courage, compassion, empathy, and awareness to see both the Darkness/Light, Good/Evil, Subjectivity/Objectivity in the world? They realize that one cannot exist without the other.

Don't know if you had the chance to read the following relatively recent threads, but just in case you didn't, here they are. People discussed there questions and issues that are similar to the ones that you present in your post. Maybe it will be helpful.

Life experiences represent interaction with "God"
Hope, fear and the future
Soul, genes, karma and learning 3D lessons

 

[Turgon]

Currently I am being my own guinea pig and trying experiments on myself for shocking my Mechanical System to experience conscious pain in a safe manor that shocks the predatory/mechanical mind without harming the body.

So far, here's all I have come up with:
1) Taking Cold Showers -
2) Weightlifting -

Right now I'm taking baby steps, so I'm trying to look for exercises that are NOT so extreme at the present moment.
Thanks!

Hi emitflesti,

Reading your posts reminds me of what Gurdjieff brought up in Beelzebub's tales about the importance of Conscious Labours and Intentional Suffering. But particularly the latter. Here's an excerpt from Essays on life about it.

[...]
The answer is to be found in the intent. Jesus did not simply suffer because it is not conscious. People do not understand why they suffer; they suffer through ignorance, not through choice. They suffer because they are attached to impermanent things; they identify with that which is fleeting and momentary. As the first Noble truth puts it: 'Clinging to existence is suffering.'

It is curious what happens when we cling to existence. Because existence is suffering, and clinging to that existence is suffering, we have to mask the reality because we do not like to suffer. Because we seek ways to avoid suffering, we try to find ways to deny suffering. We find different ways to what is called 'self-calming'. Self-calming is lying to oneself, telling oneself a story to cover up the terrifying state of reality, convincing oneself that it is possible to live in this world without suffering.

When we have a physical pain, we take a pill, some form of painkiller. We anaesthetize ourselves to the pain. Having done this, we have a choice. We can look at the causes of this pain and work to remedy it, or we can ignore the causes and rely on more drugs to make us feel 'pain-free'. In other words, we can live in a lie and deny that there are underlying causes. However, if we do not look at the source of this pain, at the disease or infection that causes it, and if we do not work to alleviate the causes, the pain will return when the effects of the drug wear off.

self-calmimg is like taking a pain reliever without working on the underlying causes. One continues popping the pills, and the underlying cause can worsen, creating the need for another, stronger pill. If this continues, the pill-popping can become our reality. We can live completely under the influence of the drug. Our body will continue to suffer, it may even continue to manufacture the warning signs that we are ill, but we become oblivious to these signs, these warnings.
[...]

To justify fence-sitting, this refusal to make a choice or this refusal to see the bad, people will find many and varied excuses. They may understand that suffering has been turned into a virtue in and of itself by the Church, with no discussion of context and its relationship to intent. The more you suffer the better; the more you suffer the holier you art, the closer to Christ you dwell. This acceptance of unintentional suffering has become a tool for oppression of the masses by the major religions. But rather than understanding that the problem is the question of intent, those who reject this Christian interpretation mechanically reject suffering itself. They never ask themselves: Am I suffering because I am still caught in the world of mechanical reaction, or am I suffering by choice?

Mechanical suffering is useless suffering.
[...]
If the above is uselessly suffering, what, then, would be 'useful suffering'?

Can such a thing exist?

When we say that the life is suffering, we mean that life is an endless succession of events, many of which lead to suffering. There are many causes. If we learn to avoid a specific form of suffering, we can be certain that a new form will arise to challenge us.

Let us say we are in a relationship where we sacrifice ourselves for the good of another, using the excuse that we are closer to God by accepting our lot in life. With effort and reflection we can step back and identify the cause of our suffering. First, it is the acceptance of the Christian teaching on suffering and the subsequent ordering of our life upon that teaching: our acceptance of the needs of someone else at the expense of our own. Having identified this, we can change. We can refuse the original teaching that deformed our understanding of the world, we can step down from the pedestal of long suffering self-righteousness that justified our self-sacrifice, and we can refuse to put our misunderstanding of the needs of others before ourselves.

If we implement these changes, one form of suffering will end. However, a new cause of suffering may well arise - the reaction of those around us as we change. We have learned to stop suffering in one way, and we are now called upon to learn how to stop suffering in this new way. The change within the relationship away from our role and identification with 'self-sacrifice' may well lead to a rupture with those around us if they are unable to accept the change. They may force us back into the old habits until we are obliged to break free in order to maintain the lesson we have learned. This, too, will create more suffering as we face a new life alone, meeting the experiences of learning to live alone and of relying upon ourselves.

But this suffering brought on by new experience can be accompanied by a feeling of joy as we look at what we have accomplished, as we see the change we have brought about in our lives. So there can be, if we so choose, a coupling of suffering and joy: we are joyous because we understand that we are suffering for a reason.

Moreover, although we continue to suffer, we are not suffering in the same ways. We are opening ourselves to new experiences and new challenges. Gradually, we can change our outlook on suffering and on life. In looking back and seeing how we have been able to surmount past difficulties with success, as we understand the beneficial changes within us wrought by this testing through fire, we begin to look forward to the difficulties of the future as opportunities and challenges for growth. By passing through the fire of our experience, we know we are changing our way of being in this world and coming to a greater and greater understanding of ourselves, of our abilities, and of our capacity to surmount the roadblocks thrown up by the world to keep us in our place. WE build the faith in our ability to surpass the limits we have placed upon ourselves, the limits of our own thoughts and ideas that prevent us from being who we are, from seeing the world as it really is.

This growing understanding of suffering that comes from passing through the tests of suffering will in turn aid us in understanding others. Through our experience, we will be able to truly help others in the face of their own suffering: not by taking it on and helping them avoid it, but by teaching them the tools necessary to confront the suffering in their own lives. We can help others to see suffering as a means of surmounting suffering, choosing to accept and face this suffering consciously.

The approach is certainly different than that which would have us erect a protective wall around ourselves, a wall that separates us from the world. The approach that rejects suffering, as we have seen, is a rejection of the Truth about the world and our existence.

The joy brought about through suffering is the lesson that suffering can be more than a burden. It can be a means of self-realization, of burning away the limits we impose upon ourselves. It is the alchemist's fire that transforms metals into gold, the means of forming our link with our 'higher selves' through burning away the dross. Is is the joy to live in Truth, no matter how horrendous tht Truth might be. It is never flinching because we know that we have the strenght to face the Truth and overcome it, no matter how great the challenge. It is the joy of knowing that we can choose not to live in the lie of self-calmimg.

Suffering can thus become the doorway through which we pass to an open experience of a limitless world because we are not afraid to look ahead, not afraid of pursuing new paths for fear of what awaits us, and not afraid of what we might find.

 

[JGeropoulas]

Some pain seems inevitable. For example, like the pain for the child and mother during birth. And possibly the

There are several interesting ideas in your post, in addition to the indisputable fact that pain is involved in the process of soul development. But I don't think the mother-child analogy really holds up because it's the mother who experiences the pain, not the child. But maybe I'm splitting hairs too much since being expelled from the comfort of the womb has to be pretty intense, at least for the body consciousness.

On the other hand, some propose rather convincingly that the process of birth and death are both facilitated by endogenous psychoactive chemicals similar to DMT:
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,42704.msg674391.html#msg674391

 

[lainey]

Currently I am being my own guinea pig and trying experiments on myself for shocking my Mechanical System to experience conscious pain in a safe manor that shocks the predatory/mechanical mind without harming the body.

So far, here's all I have come up with:
1) Taking Cold Showers -
2) Weightlifting -


Right now I'm taking baby steps, so I'm trying to look for exercises that are NOT so extreme at the present moment.
Thanks!

Hello emitflesti, how about trying something like a change in your diet, like cutting out one food that you crave?

 

[Faith]

Hi emitflesti :)

I've thought about this a lot lately and I'm going to reread what Gurdjieff and the fictional Don Juan had to say about this. Petty Tyrants have also a lot to do with this concept of conscious suffering.

As I see it conscious suffering is the result of asking "Why am I suffering in this or that instance?" with regard to my own involvement, knowing that I have to learn a great deal about myself and others, knowing that there is a lot that I contribute to my suffering in an unconscious way. When I start to look closer and observe myself, I realize that most of my activity is mechanical, triggered by inner and outer stimuli. Others may take adventage of my suggestibility. Being in control is something everybody takes for granted and admitting that after closer inspection this is not the case takes courage. Know thyself. Knowledge protects. So the idea is to get to the bottom of things and find out ways to work on myself, to reduce the chance of falling into the same trap again, to free myself from being triggered like a pinball. Pain, fear, feeling uneasy in certain situations are indication for something that is often hidden, something that can be uncovered and overcome. There are patterns and triggers. Challenging myself, challenging inner and outer demons, walking the uncomfortable road leads to growth. And it hurts. But it's also fun, when I have accomplished something. Challenging petty tyrants helps me getting wiser and more skillful. It's not the easy way. It also improves will power, to go against IT.

The opposite is walking the seemingly easy road of ignorance, of clinging to wishfull thinking, blaming others and presenting myself in the best light, being too proud to admit my mechanicalness and slavery, that I am not in charge, pretending I'm already fully developed and if things go wrong I hold others responsible for my suffering, projecting all the time. This leads to mechanical suffering because the true causes remain unknown and there is no work on the self, no improvement, nothing in me that challenges those influences. It's being trapped in the same suffering-loop. Of course there may be situations where others cause my suffering but the responsibility for my improvement is always mine, even if it means to seek help. In the end I am the only one who can make a difference, when it comes to my suffering and yeah, there is still a lot of work to be done :P

 

[Faith]

Oh and it's also important to gradually replace self-harshness with self-loving behavior, to avoid being compulsive and pushing yourself too hard. I don't know about you but to me this happens quite often. There are times for challenge and times for rest. Keep the balance. ;D

 

[Alada]

Currently I am being my own guinea pig and trying experiments on myself for shocking my Mechanical System to experience conscious pain in a safe manor that shocks the predatory/mechanical mind without harming the body.

So far, here's all I have come up with:
1) Taking Cold Showers -
2) Weightlifting -

Right now I'm taking baby steps, so I'm trying to look for exercises that are NOT so extreme at the present moment.
Thanks!

I think maybe you might consider more the word 'suffering' and what that means, what 'conscious suffering' may constitute for you and how it applies to yourself.

There is more to conscious suffering than physical pain I think, and if physical pain alone were to become the focus, it could grow into a fixed idea and nothing much would come of it. Or, taken to the extreme it points towards the way of the fakir and to lopsided development.

The exercises above can be useful as part of broader efforts to keep giving the machine little shocks, alarm clocks to help to stay awake, but I don't think they're a means in themselves, to be used in isolation. The trouble with alarm clocks is that a person can grow used to them and so they cease to work. I think G said that in the end a person sleeps all the more soundly for them (while thinking themselves awake).

Gurdjieff said that the way is through the emotional centre, and it's that context within which to consider a part that conscious suffering plays. Sometimes it is harder for a person to resist buying and eating chocolate when they are in a certain state for example, than it is to make themselves stand in a cold shower for ten minutes.

It might seem silly compared with the imagined shock value of a cold shower, but there can a lot more going on in the background emotionally with the chocolate example if you think about it.

 

[emitflesti]

Hello emitflesti, how about trying something like a change in your diet, like cutting out one food that you crave?

Thanks lainey. Right now sugar is my biggest vice. After recently listening to everything about our gut microbiome, I am currently trying to get back on the program from Dr. David Brownstein and reading his book again, "Iodine. Why you need it. Why you can't live without it." 5th edition.

Right now I'm in the 2-week phase of drinking salt water for detoxing before taking Iodine

Mod edit: fixed quote box

 

[emitflesti]

And to everybody else that so far has responded to my post, thanks for the comments and links :)

 

[emitflesti]

Currently I am being my own guinea pig and trying experiments on myself for shocking my Mechanical System to experience conscious pain in a safe manor that shocks the predatory/mechanical mind without harming the body.

So far, here's all I have come up with:
1) Taking Cold Showers -
2) Weightlifting -


Right now I'm taking baby steps, so I'm trying to look for exercises that are NOT so extreme at the present moment.
Thanks!

Hello emitflesti, how about trying something like a change in your diet, like cutting out one food that you crave?

Thanks lainey. Right now sugar is my biggest vice. After recently listening to everything about our gut microbiome, I am currently trying to get back on the program from Dr. David Brownstein and reading his book again, "Iodine. Why you need it. Why you can't live without it." 5th edition.

Right now I'm in the 2-week phase of drinking salt water for detoxing before taking Iodine

 

[Phill4]

Different pains affect different systems and have different workings.

Some examples to bring perspectives, you mentioned when the car hit you, and then your moms pain, i can only say that must have been a horrible experience, but i gives you now a great perspective on this

These are some examples to expand perspective in the subject.
Example:
The pain athetes endure or inflict on themselves in order to get a physical state for a sport,
This kind of pain sometimes is a motivator but is inevitalble in the path of the athlete. It is part of it as it is eating, and practice.

Example:
The pain of break up, it is a pain that affects other sets of areas in ourselves and an indicator of many other things..


In life it is necesary and inevitable from birth to death.. But there is a huge difference when there is attentive observation on our part, i.e. The term used "shock",

I think though, that is not the self infliction of pain or attraction to it, but rather the necesary concious changes, which many times, all the time it causes pain and disconfort, like leaving sugar, a habit, a partner, or lossing a tooth and so on. The necesary changes, once changed, we change. And those thing which afected us no longer do in the form of pain but in a form subjec to one's aim.

 

[Alada]

Right now sugar is my biggest vice.

That can be a great one to work on and very beneficial in lots of ways, not least of which being cleaning up the physical system and getting the brain working optimally. It’s an interesting one to observe when and how we use sugary things too. Or, more precisely, when, how and what emotional programs use it, and/or whether it’s critters producing cravings perhaps.

As an aside, makes you wonder if perhaps there’s a link between the two? I wonder if critters (candida for example) can help produce or enhance the emotional mental states which drive us to sugar, or, if our general emotional states can produce physiological responses which then provide a happy home for critters. Probably a bit of both would be my guess.

So no use standing in a cold shower – for all the suffering it may produce – if the net result is the emotional centre looking for ways to then make itself feel better as a reward along the lines of one chocolate biscuit per minute of cold water endured.

The point being that if we do such exercises without due care and attention in other areas, we can end up producing unexpected and unhelpful results which can go unnoticed. Networking can be a foil to that though.

 

[Keit]

So no use standing in a cold shower – for all the suffering it may produce – if the net result is the emotional centre looking for ways to then make itself feel better as a reward along the lines of one chocolate biscuit per minute of cold water endured.

Yeah, maybe instead of looking for things that will make you "suffer" in a pre-planned way, try to look for things that you would prefer not to go without. Or things that make you "uncomfortable" and the ones you usually leave for later. For example, everyday think about things you don't want to do the most, and try to do them first. Or think about treats or sweets you are looking for eating today, and in the last moment make an effort and don't do it. And then observe all the justifications and excuses in your mind why you do need this right now, or why you can leave this annoying thing for later. ;)

 

[lainey]

So no use standing in a cold shower – for all the suffering it may produce – if the net result is the emotional centre looking for ways to then make itself feel better as a reward along the lines of one chocolate biscuit per minute of cold water endured.

Yeah, maybe instead of looking for things that will make you "suffer" in a pre-planned way, try to look for things that you would prefer not to go without. Or things that make you "uncomfortable" and the ones you usually leave for later. For example, everyday think about things you don't want to do the most, and try to do them first. Or think about treats or sweets you are looking for eating today, and in the last moment make an effort and don't do it. And then observe all the justifications and excuses in your mind why you do need this right now, or why you can leave this annoying thing for later. ;)

I totally agree. "It" couldn't give a hoot if I stood in a cold shower till the cows came home, it's the self soothing behaviours that are the trickiest to give up IMO.
Coffee was a big one for me, there was a lot of back and forth and excuses as to why it was ok to have one today and that tomorrow would be the day that I would give up; always tomorrow. ;)
There is a great sense of achievement in beating just a small thing like that and it makes you think "1 down, ok what's next?"
Plus, as others said, it is also good to look at the emotions behind the behaviours and what is triggering the sugar binges. You can try to stop yourself before eating a certain thing and ask yourself "how am I feeling?" There is a system called H.A.L.T. (Hungry, Angry, Lonely, and Tired) which explores this.
http://www.chinnstreetcounseling.com/zomerland/zomerland_11.shtml
Did you get a chance to look at the ketogenic diet thread in the diet and health section?
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,28799.0.html
I hope this helps a little.