Putin Recognizes Donbass Republics, Sends Russian Military to 'Denazify' Ukraine
- Thread starter bjorb
- Start date
SOTTREADER
The Living Force
Scanning through the news this morning things look to be calmer on the battle front? Zelensky saying he's willing to negotiate with Russia now that NATO won't be coming to the rescue?
Russia has banned British aircraft or aircraft registered in the UK from its airspace. I assume this also means civilian / commercial flights?
Reading about the sanctions, they look quite serious, at least as worded? Basically if you were a rich Russian with money in the West you can't access that money anymore? Russia looks like it can't procure parts to its high tech technologies from Western companies? 70% of their banking is targeted.... Ursula is talking about crippling their industrial sector long term. Looks like the West has declared war on Russian economy and will be employing all tools at its disposal? That's what it reads like.
So whilst Russia looks like it'll get Ukraine to be "neutral" and "de-militarised" it looks like the price will be this long term open economic warfare against them. I understand that pivoted to Asia and are strong plus have China but looks like all the western countries bandying against them economically will indeed result in some hardship? I don't know but to me looks like its open season on Russian economy and cyber attacks against their economy including news agencies e.g. RT.
Russia has banned British aircraft or aircraft registered in the UK from its airspace. I assume this also means civilian / commercial flights?
Reading about the sanctions, they look quite serious, at least as worded? Basically if you were a rich Russian with money in the West you can't access that money anymore? Russia looks like it can't procure parts to its high tech technologies from Western companies? 70% of their banking is targeted.... Ursula is talking about crippling their industrial sector long term. Looks like the West has declared war on Russian economy and will be employing all tools at its disposal? That's what it reads like.
So whilst Russia looks like it'll get Ukraine to be "neutral" and "de-militarised" it looks like the price will be this long term open economic warfare against them. I understand that pivoted to Asia and are strong plus have China but looks like all the western countries bandying against them economically will indeed result in some hardship? I don't know but to me looks like its open season on Russian economy and cyber attacks against their economy including news agencies e.g. RT.
There will be some economical repercussions for Russia for sure, but they are not stupid (from yesterday):
ziutek
Jedi Master
Here in Poland schizophrenia reaches its peak.
The right-wing party Konfederacja and most alternative media, which are mainly right-wing, trumpeted before the plandium about UPA marches in Ukraine, naming streets in Ukrainian cities after Bandera and other criminals. They forced the Polish government to condemn and call genocide the UPA's crimes in Volhynia, without noticing the crimes against Russian civilians in Odessa at the House of Trade Unions. Not noticing the killing of civilians in Luhansk and Donetsk by Nazi organizations such as Azov. Now we have the struggle for civil rights and revealing the truth about Covid. Interviews with Fuelmch, Bakhdi etc....
At the same time they sow hatred for Russia and forgot Bandera, they want weapons for every Pole.
It all looks like it was controlled from beginning to end.
If we are lied to directly and brazenly about plandemia then why do we believe the media about Russia?
For people such discrepancies are not a problem at all.
They seamlessly move from disbelieving the media on one topic to completely believing it on another.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
The right-wing party Konfederacja and most alternative media, which are mainly right-wing, trumpeted before the plandium about UPA marches in Ukraine, naming streets in Ukrainian cities after Bandera and other criminals. They forced the Polish government to condemn and call genocide the UPA's crimes in Volhynia, without noticing the crimes against Russian civilians in Odessa at the House of Trade Unions. Not noticing the killing of civilians in Luhansk and Donetsk by Nazi organizations such as Azov. Now we have the struggle for civil rights and revealing the truth about Covid. Interviews with Fuelmch, Bakhdi etc....
At the same time they sow hatred for Russia and forgot Bandera, they want weapons for every Pole.
It all looks like it was controlled from beginning to end.
If we are lied to directly and brazenly about plandemia then why do we believe the media about Russia?
For people such discrepancies are not a problem at all.
They seamlessly move from disbelieving the media on one topic to completely believing it on another.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
SOTTREADER
The Living Force
Also another thing - to me it looks like the Russian incursion into Ukraine has slowed down, at least compared to what we were seeing this time yesterday.
Whilst NATO are publicly saying they won't be doing anything militarily, I wonder if special forces and NATO high tech equipment is being employed within Ukraine. Such aspects of the military will be working under a cloud of secrecy and non-disclosure to the public.
Personally I don't see why NATO wouldn't want to create a drawn out conflict for Russia in Ukraine, thereby making them eat up more resources than they were hoping for whilst simultaneously hitting them economically. In the end if Russia gets sucked in and the situation drags out then indeed Russian population may start to get frustrated and start applying political pressure.
Thinking about it, NATO has a lot of things it can do without actually doing anything "officially".
I know Putin and Russia of course are super clever but I don't know how they navigate not getting these reactions even if they gamed it out and have contingency plans.
Just ideas - I think situation may not be as straight forward but let's wait and see.
Whilst NATO are publicly saying they won't be doing anything militarily, I wonder if special forces and NATO high tech equipment is being employed within Ukraine. Such aspects of the military will be working under a cloud of secrecy and non-disclosure to the public.
Personally I don't see why NATO wouldn't want to create a drawn out conflict for Russia in Ukraine, thereby making them eat up more resources than they were hoping for whilst simultaneously hitting them economically. In the end if Russia gets sucked in and the situation drags out then indeed Russian population may start to get frustrated and start applying political pressure.
Thinking about it, NATO has a lot of things it can do without actually doing anything "officially".
I know Putin and Russia of course are super clever but I don't know how they navigate not getting these reactions even if they gamed it out and have contingency plans.
Just ideas - I think situation may not be as straight forward but let's wait and see.
Tyomodachi
Jedi
Rather, I would say, because of a bunch of fakes, you have a false opinion about the high speed of promotion
I just love reading it this morning. They promised him so much but when it came to actually take action, they all left him alone. That's NATO for you Zelly! Greece is a NATO member for decades now, and they have learned the hard way that NATO never gives, only takes. If Russia did not interfere, Ukraine would have become Yugoslavia. Wake up and smell the fact that you are not cast as a protagonist in this drama Zelly!
From RT:
The only one who can save Ukraine IS Russia. And finally, Putin is doing it.
It looks like it. The illusion of NATO membership is gone for now. The days of neo-nazi monkeys that killed and danced for cookies is numbered. Whom will US use next? Poland? No body will dare to go against Russia soon.
I only saw it as a reaction to Loreta comparing it to the liberation by Russia in WW2. And yes at that time Stalin was the key leader. Thus I think Tycho saw it as if Loreta indirectly linked Stalin to being like Putin and that hit a raw nerve.
Kit Knightly at Off-Guardian provides a timely reminder of a nefarious timeline:
Feb 24, 2022
Timeline 1: Euromaidan, the original “Ukraine Crisis”
Feb 24, 2022
Timeline 1: Euromaidan, the original “Ukraine Crisis”
Genuine grassroots revolution or NATO backed coup? Here are the facts to help you decide.
Kit Knightly
As Russia actually do launch an invasion or “special operation” in Ukraine, we thought now was a good time to recap on how we got here.
The historical, political and ethnic divisions in Ukraine go back decades, if not centuries, but we don’t have the space for that kind of deep-dive. For now, we’ll be keeping it to three simple parts: The fall of Viktor Yanukovych, the Crimean referendum, and the ensuing civil war which puts the region in a direct path to the events of today.
Much like our 30 Facts on Covid, this piece is intended as a quick reference guide to help get friends and family up to speed on the recent history of Ukraine, a handy index of contemporary sources, or a refresher course for those who’ve forgotten the details.
Anyway, let’s get to it.
1990
Following the fall of the Berlin Wall and the reunification of Germany, multiple Western leaders give both written and spoken assurances to then-Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev, that NATO does not plan to increase its territory eastwards.
To quote US Secretary of State James Baker:
not only for the Soviet Union but for other European countries as well it is important to have guarantees that if the United States keeps its presence in Germany within the framework of NATO, not an inch of NATO’s present military jurisdiction will spread in an eastern direction.”
1997
The Charter on a Distinctive Partnership is signed by representatives of both NATO and Ukraine. This document is a long-term agreement that Ukraine will move gradually into cooperation with NATO and eventually become a member. This is in direct violation of the assurances given above.
2002
NATO publishes their NATO-Ukraine Action Plan, re-affirming their commitment to “closer ties” with Ukraine, and outlining a long term plan for “reforms” in Ukraine that will make it suitable for “full Euro-Atlantic integration”.
2008
US Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice and Ukrainian Foreign Minister Volodymyr Ohryzko sign the US-Ukraine Charter on Strategic Partnership,the charter “emphasizes the continued commitment of the United States to support enhanced engagement between NATO and Ukraine”.
FEBRUARY
Viktor Yanukovych, leader of Ukraine’s Party of Regions, wins the presidential election and is named Ukraine’s fourth President. Yanukovych is the former governor of Donetsk, the region of his birth, and wins office with a huge percentage of the vote from ethnically Russian east Ukraine.
MAY
As one of his first acts as President, Yanukovych signs an agreement with Russia, extending their lease on the Black Sea naval base in Crimea until at least 2042. This extension is met with consternation and rebuke in the Western press, with one paper asking:
The End of Ukraine’s EU Integration?”
Writing in the Guardian, Luke Harding called it:
the most concrete sign yet that Ukraine is now back under Russia’s influence following Yanukovych’s victory in February’s presidential elections.
Also noting that “the lease extension is likely to increase opposition to Yanukovych in Ukraine’s western provinces”
A PEW poll finds the majority of Ukrainians opposed to joining NATO.
JUNE
Ukraine’s parliament votes through a new bill barring the country from joining any military bloc. This, as the BBC noted at the time, effectively ends any prospect of Ukraine joining NATO, killing a plan that the West had worked on for 13 years.
2012
Yanukovych’s Party of the Regions secures victory in the parliamentary elections, increasing its number of seats and seeing its biggest rival, Arseniy Yatsenyuk‘s Batkivshchyna (Fatherland) party lose 55 seats.
However, the elections also mark the first time Ukraine elected a far-right MP to its parliament, with Oleh Tyahnybok’s Svoboda party winning 37 seats and over 10% of the vote (entirely from the ethnically Ukrainian west of the country).
Contemporary press reports, as well as think-tanks such as OpenDemocracy, note the “concerning” rise of “far-right politics” in Ukraine.
SEPTEMBER
The Ukrainian cabinet unanimously approves the draft of the long-awaited Ukraine-EU Association Agreement. Yanokuych is expected to officially sign the agreement at the EU’s “Eastern Partnership Summit” in Vilnius on November 28th and 29th.
Russia – Ukraine’s major creditor and biggest trade partner – warns that this treaty would “cause chaos”, break the terms of an existing treaty between Ukraine and Russia, and lead to Ukraine’s economy collapsing. As a counteroffer, they suggest Ukraine sign a new deal with the Eurasian Economic Union.
NOVEMBER
The Ukrainian government issues a decree suspending preparations for the association agreement (AA). Deputy Prime Minister Yuriy Boyko warns the current terms of the agreement would “seriously damage the economy”.
“Pro European” demonstrations begin in Maidan square within days of the decree being issued. A poll run by the Kyiv Post finds an even split on joining the EU vs the Eurasian customs union: 39% for, 37% against.
Yanukovych attends the Eastern Partnership Summit on the 28th, but does not sign the Association Agreement, instead suggesting a new tri-lateral agreement between Ukraine, Russia and the EU. Russia is open to negotiating such a deal, but EU rejects this offer completely.
Despite not signing the AA, Yanukovych tells the press that Ukraine still intends to work for closer ties with the EU: “an alternative for reforms in Ukraine and an alternative for European integration do not exist…We are walking along this path and are not changing direction”.
Prime Minister Mykola Azarov echoed this: “I affirm with full authority that the negotiating process over the Association Agreement is continuing, and the work on moving our country closer to European standards is not stopping for a single day”.
Nevertheless, this is ubiquitously covered in the Western media as Yanukoych “refusing to sign the association agreement in favour of closer ties with Russia”.
Thousands more gather in Maidan Square and others begin occupying Kiev City Hall. Protests intensify as opposition politicians speak of Yanukovych “committing treason”, they call for a re-run of the Presidential election, despite new elections being only 18 months away.
On November 29th the protesters make their first “official” demands, including the immediate resignation of Viktor Yanukovych.
DECEMBER
1/12/2013 – Thousands of protesters chanting “revolution” storm the metal barriers erected by riot police. Protesters throw Molotov cocktails:
The police withdraw from the square. Over 200 people are injured, including over 100 police officers.
2/12/2013 – Protesters erect barricades around the Maidan, block access to government buildings and attempt to storm the Presidential administration. Even the Guardian notes that the police withdrew.
In a press conference, far-right MP Oleh Tyanybohk officially calls it a “revolution”, and asks that police and members of the military defect to their side.
3/12/2013 – Writing in the New Republic, Julia Ioffe praises the Maidan protesters, citing specifically the throwing of Molotovs at police:
When the police came, unlike the Muscovites, they didn’t leave. They swung chains and threw Molotov cocktails and built barricades in the streets. They took over municipal buildings. They nearly toppled the city’s main statue of Lenin. They sang the national anthem and chanted “Revolution!”
8/12/2013 – Protesters topple a statue of Lenin. Grafitti reading “Yanukovych you’re next” is scrawled on walls. An effigy of Gadaffi’s severed head is carried around the square to chants of “Yanukovych the game is over!”. Kyiv Post reports preparation of Molotov cocktails.
10/12/2013 – Berkut riot police attempt to break down the barricades and clear the square. Tear gas is deployed. They are beaten back.
11/12/2013 – US Deputy Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and US Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt visit the protests and talk to opposition leaders. They are photographed shaking hands and distributing food:
That same day Foreign Affairs, the official publication of the Council on Foreign Relations, runs an article headlined: “Yanukovych Must Go”
Also that same day, former President Leonid Kravchuk hosts a “roundtable” political discussion with members of all parties and all of Ukraine’s past presidents, the aim is to diffuse the crisis. The talks have Yanukovych’s blessing, the opposition refuses to attend.
13/12/2013 – US Senator John McCain visits Kiev where he gives a speech telling the crowd “We are here to support your just cause”.
Later he is photographed shaking hands with Oleh Tyahnybok, leader of the far-right Svoboda party:
The UK’s Channel 4 news reported [emphasis added]: “Far-right group at heart of Ukraine protests meet US senator”.
2014
JANUARY
14/1/2014 – Protest activity resurges after a lull over the Christmas/New Year period.
15/1/2014 – At a meeting of the US Senate’s Foreign Affairs Committee, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Thomas Melia admits that the US State Department has spent 5 billion dollars “assisting Ukraine”.
This includes 180 million dollars on “development programs” for “judges, members of parliament [and] political parties”.
16/1/2014 – After weeks of stalemate, the Ukrainian parliament passes ten new bills into law. Known collectively as the “Anti Protest Laws”, these laws allow a strict crackdown on protest activity, including removal of parliamentary immunity from MPs promoting violence and stripping of drivers license from those that used vehicles to obstruct public roads.
19/1/2014 – Clashes between riot police and protesters on Hrushevskoho Street, many of the protesters are from far-right groups such as Svoboda and Right Sector, and are seen wearing neo-nazi symbols and slogans.
25/1/2014 – President Yanukovych reaches out to opposition leaders, offering them a power-sharing agreement that would install Yatseniyuk as Prime Minister and Vitaliy Klitschko as his deputy. The opposition refuses the offer.
28/1/2014 – In a gesture of compromise, the parliament repeals 9 of the ten protest laws, passing a new law granting amnesty to all those involved in the protests, providing they cease occupying government buildings. The opposition refuses these terms.
FEBRUARY
7/2/2014 – A recorded phone call between Nuland and Pyatt is leaked to the press, famously dubbed the “-flick- the EU” call.
In the conversation, dated January 28th, Nuland and Pyatt discuss at length the structure of the Ukrainian cabinet once Yanukovych is gone. This is still 25 days before Yanukovych was removed from power
A poll published that same day by the Kyiv Post found more Ukrainians opposed the Maidan protests than supported them.
16/2/2014 – In yet another attempt at compromise, the government releases all prisoners arrested during the protests, this time the opposition responds, lifting their 3-month long occupation of Kiev City Hall.
19/2/2014 – President Yanukovych declares a “truce” in a joint statement signed by the three main opposition leaders. The statement committed to negotiation for a lasting peace.
20/2/2014 – Snipers open fire on the crowd in Maidan Square, resulting in at least sixty deaths. Both protesters and police officers are killed in the gunfire. EuroNews reports that the “truce is shattered” mere hours after it was signed.
21/2/2014 – Despite the bloodshed, negotiations continue, resulting in the “Agreement on settlement of political crisis in Ukraine”, signed by all parties plus the foreign ministers of Germany and Poland.
The agreement required the creation of a temporary “National Unity Government”, to be replaced following new Presidential Elections by the end of 2014. It also called for a full investigation into the shootings on the Maidan the previous day.
Yanukovych pledged that the government would not declare a state of emergency or call in the military, and would pull all police back from the site of the protests, in return for protesters surrendering all public buildings and illegal weapons.
Leaders of the militant protesters – including Dmitryo Yarosh of the neo-Nazi Right Sector – rejected the agreement, and threatened to storm the Parliament and Presidential Residence if Yanukoyvch did not resign immediately.
22/2/2014 – Rather than abiding by the terms of the agreement, once the police pulled back the protesters stormed government buildings and seized control of Kiev. Yanukovych flees to the city of Kharkiv in eastern Ukraine.
A contemporary Time article reported:
Ukraine’s beleaguered President Viktor Yanukovych fled Kiev Saturday as protestors took full control of Ukraine’s capital, signalling a dramatic turn in the three-month crisis just hours after the signing of an European Union-sponsored peace deal […] As police abandoned their posts across the capital, the opposition established control over key intersections and captured the presidential palace, setting up a perimeter around Yanukovych’s former residence
Within hours of the storming of the city, the Ukrainian parliament votes to strip Yanukovych of his office by 328 votes to 0, with over 120 MPs absent from the vote. This vote was unconstitional and not a legally binding form of impeachment, in any way.
From the eastern city of Kharkiv, Yanukovych gives a televised speech, declaring he was still the “legitimate elected President of Ukraine“, and that he had no intention of fleeing the country.
24/2/2014 – Parliament removes 1/3 of Ukraines Constitutional Court from office, issues an arrest warrant for President Yanukovych.
25/2/2014 – Yanukovych’s own Party of the Regions disavows him in parliament, and he flies to Russia, claiming his life is in danger.
27/2/2014 – Arseniy Yatsenyuk is sworn in as Ukraine’s interim Prime Minister, a post he would hold onto following elections in May 2014.
Vitaly Klitschko is relegated to the somewhat lower office of Mayor of Kiev, and Oleh Tyahnybok resumed his office as a simple MP.
Ukraine’s new government takes shape exactly as predicted by Nuland in her phone call of January 28th.
The same day Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Secretary General of NATO, tells the press that “the door is still open” for Ukraine to join the military bloc.
28/2/2014 – UK current events show Newsnight runs this segment, titled “The Neo-Nazi Threat in New Ukraine”:
MARCH
Evidence emerges that the snipers shooting at the crowds were not employed by the Ukrainian government, but were shooting at both sides in an effort to stoke chaos.
This evidence is presented to the EU’s Foreign Policy Chief Catherine Ashton by Estonia Foreign Minister Urmas Paet in a phone call that is later leaked to the press, and confirmed to be genuine by the Estonian government.
Neither the EU, nor the new government of Ukraine, makes any effort to investigate this evidence or bring the killers to justice.
On the 21st of March the interim government of Ukraine officially signs the controversial European Union Association Agreement into law.
OCTOBER
Following the 2014 parliamentary elections, the 5-party coalition government officially makes joining NATO a “national priority”.
*
So, there it is, a timeline of the key events leading to the fall of Viktor Yanukovych. Genuine grassroots revolution, or NATO backed coup? You decide.
We’ll catalogue Ukraine’s further collapse into chaos and civil war in parts two and three of this timeline, coming soon.
Maybe this is what NATO ultimately wants in conjunction with Putin's actions over Ukraine. NATO needs a reason to exist, Putin needs an enemy to reason himself into existence in power. Movable object meets stoppable force. They just need a disposable easy target to aim at to make believe they are delivering the goods. They will both obliterate Ukraine into non existence minus her natural resources. By the time the deed is done, the Ukrainians will be wiped off the map and forgotten not until other more sensationalistic news take over your favorite news feed to prove how righteous you are whilst sitting comfortably in your armchair thousand of miles away from the hot spot.
Putin networking... Wonder how many leaderships will take him way more seriously now, and what they think of NATO...
en.kremlin.ru
en.kremlin.ru
en.kremlin.ru
Telephone conversation with Prime Minister of India Narendra Modi
Vladimir Putin had a telephone conversation with Prime Minister of the Republic of India Narendra Modi.
en.kremlin.ru
Telephone conversation with President of Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdogan
Vladimir Putin had a telephone conversation with President of the Republic of Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
en.kremlin.ru
Telephone conversation with President of Iran Sayyid Ebrahim Raisi
Vladimir Putin had a telephone conversation with President of the Islamic Republic of Iran Sayyid Ebrahim Raisi at the Iranian party’s initiative.
en.kremlin.ru
I once again urge many of you to look wider and, preferably, from different sides.
What you have written is unacceptable from my point of view. I will try to explain my position briefly, although it will not be easy, because this problem has been standing since the time of Tsar Ivan 4, called "the Terrible". The most general idea is that since those very times, Russia in all its forms, as a kingdom, empire, USSR, the current Russian Federation, has been represented by Western propaganda as the focus of world evil. This is just a lie and at the same time I'm not saying that we are entirely "white and fluffy", I'm saying that we are nothing, I emphasize, no worse than everyone else, and in many manifestations that can be compared somehow, we are much better than those who loudly accuse us of all mortal sins. In order not to spread too much, I will touch only on those moments that you wrote about.
You write- Stalin is a "liberator", and I claim that he is a liberator without any quotation marks. Why? Because after all the horror that the occupation troops were doing on our lands and which was provoked by the authorities (let me remind you that Hitler literally said: kill, kill, kill, I will be responsible for all of you), murders, robberies, violence in the liberated territories were legally prohibited in the Red Army. Of course, there were episodes of all this, but I emphasize that all this was prohibited and suppressed and severely punished by the command.
Next, you write very one-sidedly about "Polish Katyn". Let me remind you that Katyn is located in the Smolensk region and is part of Russia. At that time, it was also not the territory of Poland, and shortly before the time described, Poland itself was the territory of the Russian Empire. About the reasons for the corresponding attitude of the Soviet authorities to the Polish military, I will give an article about the "Polish-Bolshevik" war of 1919-1921.
Советско-польская война 1920 года
It's in Russian, if necessary, I can translate it. Here I will give only the most heartbreaking passage.
"The Soviet troops defeated near Warsaw were partially captured, and partially retreated to the German territory of East Prussia. Only near Warsaw, 60 thousand Russians were captured, in total, more than 100 thousand people ended up in Polish prisoner-of-war camps. At least 70 thousand of them died in less than a year - this clearly characterizes the monstrous regime that the Polish authorities established for the prisoners, anticipating the Nazi concentration camps."
And I will give you another article about how and by whom the PR myth about the Katyn shooting was created. In a nutshell, this propaganda myth began to be created by the fascist occupation authorities after 2 years of occupation of these territories and repeated use of this place for its "intended purpose", i.e. the fascists repeatedly committed mass executions in that place and then tried to hide their own crimes by creating this myth.
Катынское дело: нестыковки, заставляющие задуматься
In general, I will say that many, if not all, such examples of one-sided representation are known to us and have been investigated, and if you are not familiar with another point of view, please contact us. I will, as much as I can, help you look at such things more objectively. Finally, from the current situation. The commander of the Ukrainian forces, Zaluzhny, gives an order including the requirement to inflict maximum damage, and Russian Defense Minister Shoigu gives an order demanding that Ukrainian prisoners of war be treated with respect.
Я в очередной раз призываю многих из вас смотреть шире и, желательно, с разных сторон.
То, что вы написали с моей точки зрения неприемлемо. Постараюсь покороче объяснить свою позицию, хотя это будет непросто, ибо проблема эта стоит со времен царя Ивана 4, названного "Грозным". Самая общая мысль заключается в том, что еще с тех самых времен Россия во всех её видах, как царство, империя, СССР, нынешняя РФ, представляется западной пропагандой как средоточие мирового зла. Это просто ложь и при этом я не говорю, что мы целиком "белые и пушистые", я говорю о том, что мы ничем, подчеркиваю, ничем не хуже всех остальных, а во многих проявлениях, которые хоть как то можно сравнивать, мы гораздо лучше тех, кто громогласно обвиняет нас во всех смертных грехах. Чтобы сильно не растекаться я коснусь только тех моментов, о которых написали вы.
Вы пишете- Сталин " освободитель", а я утверждаю, что он освободитель без всяких кавычек. Почему? Потому что после всего того ужаса, который творили оккупационные войска на наших землях и который провоцировался властями (напомню, что Гитлер буквально говорил: убивайте, убивайте, убивайте, за всех вас буду отвечать я), в Красной Армии законодательно были запрещены убийства, грабежи, насилие на освобождаемых территориях. Конечно эпизоды всего этого присутствовали, однако я подчеркиваю, что все это было запрещено и пресекалось и жестко каралось командованием.
Далее Вы очень однобоко пишете про "польскую Катынь". Напомню, что Катынь находится в Смоленской области и является частью России. В те времена это тоже не было территорией Польши, а незадолго до описываемого времени сама Польша была территорией Российской империи. Про причины соответствующего отношения советских властей к польским военным я приведу статью о "Польско-большевистской" войне 1919-1921 годов. Она на русском, если надо я могу и перевести. Здесь приведу только наиболее душераздирающий отрывок.
Разгромленные под Варшавой советские войска частично попали в плен, а частично отступили на германскую территорию Восточной Пруссии. Только под Варшавой в плену оказалось 60 тысяч русских, всего же в польские лагеря для военнопленных угодило свыше 100 тысяч человек. Из них менее чем за год умерло не меньше 70 тысяч — это наглядно характеризует тот чудовищный режим, который установили для пленных польские власти, предвосхитив гитлеровские концлагеря.
И приведу еще статью о том как и кем создавался PR миф о катынском расстреле. В двух словах этот пропагандистский миф начал создаваться фашистскими оккупационными властями после 2 лет оккупации этих территорий и неоднократного использования этого места по "прямому назначению", т.е. фашисты неоднократно совершали в том месте массовые казни и потом постарались скрыть собственные преступления создав этот миф.
В целом скажу, что многие, если не все подобные примеры однобокого представления нам известны и исследованы и если вам не знакома другая точка зрения, вы обращайтесь. Я, по мере сил, помогу вам посмотреть на такие вещи более объективно. Напоследок из текущей ситуации. Командующий украинскими силами Залужный отдает приказ включающий требование наносить максимальный ущерб, а министр обороны России Шойгу отдает приказ с требованием относиться к украинским военнопленным с уважением.
То, что вы написали с моей точки зрения неприемлемо. Постараюсь покороче объяснить свою позицию, хотя это будет непросто, ибо проблема эта стоит со времен царя Ивана 4, названного "Грозным". Самая общая мысль заключается в том, что еще с тех самых времен Россия во всех её видах, как царство, империя, СССР, нынешняя РФ, представляется западной пропагандой как средоточие мирового зла. Это просто ложь и при этом я не говорю, что мы целиком "белые и пушистые", я говорю о том, что мы ничем, подчеркиваю, ничем не хуже всех остальных, а во многих проявлениях, которые хоть как то можно сравнивать, мы гораздо лучше тех, кто громогласно обвиняет нас во всех смертных грехах. Чтобы сильно не растекаться я коснусь только тех моментов, о которых написали вы.
Вы пишете- Сталин " освободитель", а я утверждаю, что он освободитель без всяких кавычек. Почему? Потому что после всего того ужаса, который творили оккупационные войска на наших землях и который провоцировался властями (напомню, что Гитлер буквально говорил: убивайте, убивайте, убивайте, за всех вас буду отвечать я), в Красной Армии законодательно были запрещены убийства, грабежи, насилие на освобождаемых территориях. Конечно эпизоды всего этого присутствовали, однако я подчеркиваю, что все это было запрещено и пресекалось и жестко каралось командованием.
Далее Вы очень однобоко пишете про "польскую Катынь". Напомню, что Катынь находится в Смоленской области и является частью России. В те времена это тоже не было территорией Польши, а незадолго до описываемого времени сама Польша была территорией Российской империи. Про причины соответствующего отношения советских властей к польским военным я приведу статью о "Польско-большевистской" войне 1919-1921 годов. Она на русском, если надо я могу и перевести. Здесь приведу только наиболее душераздирающий отрывок.
Разгромленные под Варшавой советские войска частично попали в плен, а частично отступили на германскую территорию Восточной Пруссии. Только под Варшавой в плену оказалось 60 тысяч русских, всего же в польские лагеря для военнопленных угодило свыше 100 тысяч человек. Из них менее чем за год умерло не меньше 70 тысяч — это наглядно характеризует тот чудовищный режим, который установили для пленных польские власти, предвосхитив гитлеровские концлагеря.
И приведу еще статью о том как и кем создавался PR миф о катынском расстреле. В двух словах этот пропагандистский миф начал создаваться фашистскими оккупационными властями после 2 лет оккупации этих территорий и неоднократного использования этого места по "прямому назначению", т.е. фашисты неоднократно совершали в том месте массовые казни и потом постарались скрыть собственные преступления создав этот миф.
В целом скажу, что многие, если не все подобные примеры однобокого представления нам известны и исследованы и если вам не знакома другая точка зрения, вы обращайтесь. Я, по мере сил, помогу вам посмотреть на такие вещи более объективно. Напоследок из текущей ситуации. Командующий украинскими силами Залужный отдает приказ включающий требование наносить максимальный ущерб, а министр обороны России Шойгу отдает приказ с требованием относиться к украинским военнопленным с уважением.
Hi_Henry
The Living Force
Well they are all programmed to tell "their truth". Funny when you consider what was done when they were presidents.
Here is one of those great American Presidents busy building his summer home thanks to blood money he "earned". Imagine that, a from nowhere puppet (well that is not completely true, he had the right DNA connections) politician is able to do this.
Scowling Obama inspects his multi-million dollar Hawaii mansion
Obama, 60, had his arms crossed the entire time the group were discussing the next steps in building the massive compound
Of course he earned it through book sales and speeches
