ICE agent fatally shoots protester in Minneapolis: Self-defense or police brutality?

[genero81]

Shooting someone does not automatically make a vehicle stop! It keeps rolling, so get out of the way!

Glad you brought that up. Seems to me instinct would compel a person to jump out of the way first. Who would think pulling out a gun and shooting at the car, which is so close to you to begin with, is the best way to not get run over in that situation? He could have jumped out of the way while reaching for the gun and shot out a tire or two. Then arrested her for whatever charge they wanted.

 

[mabar]

Glad you brought that up. Seems to me instinct would compel a person to jump out of the way first. Who would think pulling out a gun and shooting at the car, which is so close to you to begin with, is the best way to not get run over in that situation? He could have jumped out of the way while reaching for the gun and shot out a tire or two. Then arrested her for whatever charge they wanted.

And recording it with the cell phone on the other hand.

 

[JEEP]

As both threads are commenting on pretty much the exact same topics, wouldn't it make sense to combine them so we're all on the same page so to speak?

Nice that the ICE agent shooting has been split off from the two Trump threads. It would appear, however, that my post #131 on this thread belongs on the Trump Now What thread as it deals with current events pertaining to Trump and not the ICE shooting. I'll make a point to not post to the 2020 Trump election thread unless the post particularly pertains to it. Thanks guys for making the adjustments.

 

[Niall]

She put herself right in the centre of a potentially dangerous and chaotic situation. We know that she was a trained leftist activist who drove to Minneapolis for the purpose of protesting ICE arrests.

Her home was "a few blocks" away.

 

[Niall]

Nice that the ICE agent shooting has been split off from the two Trump threads. It would appear, however, that my post #131 on this thread belongs on the Trump Now What thread as it deals with current events pertaining to Trump and not the ICE shooting. I'll make a point to not post to the 2020 Trump election thread unless the post particularly pertains to it. Thanks guys for making the adjustments.

I've moved it back.

 

[nortkee]

Just checking - do Americans have laws that state citizens need to obey police instructions or else?

Out here in Europe, usually you must have done something wrong first and usually cops don't resort to shooting at unarmed people. Heck, in the UK, cops rarely even shoot at armed people if they judge the person to be "not intending to cause harm" and I've seen so many videos where they let people in cars get away just to avoid deadly scenarios. They don't really have to catch you at that moment they are chasing you - they have enough tools to track you down and catch you another day.

On the bolded bit, cops in the UK tend to run into people having "bad days" or "mental episodes" a lot where the individual is like threatening the cops and all sorts, and at most they usually just tase them.

America is just different I guess. Out there, blink and you get shot.

This is a very complicated question and since I'm not a legal expert, I don't feel comfortable guessing the correct answer.

I can say, though, that from where I am standing in the southeastern United States, the notion that American cops are trigger-happy live wires is grossly overblown. I don't have stats and I'm not in a position to look for any right now, so please take my thoughts with a boulder of salt.

Bodycam footage is so prevalent and easy to obtain in the U.S. that there are entire YouTube channels devoted to nothing but bodycam videos of arrests from all over the country. After spending some time watching a lot of these interactions, I came away with a newfound respect for the U.S. police force. In most cases, I was astounded at how much these cops put up with before using ANY sort of force (most of which is just rough handling as people attempt to resist arrest or flee), and how little they employ tasers or guns, even in the face of absolute atrocious treatment.

This is coming from someone who jumped on the All Cops are Bastards bandwagon in 2020 after the Floyd debacle. Needless to say, my viewpoint has shifted... because I started looking deeper than just, "My political party says X, so I believe X."

When it comes to this ICE shooting, I am of the mind that it was an extremely unfortunate situation that could have been avoided on BOTH counts, but that no one was actively trying to murder anyone in the interaction. I am absolutely amazed at how those with strong political loyalties are watching the same videos and coming away with polar opposite observations.

And, honestly, I kind of think that's the goal, from a 4D STS point of view. I really think that this is an inflection point that is serving as a definitive fork in the road for two diverging realities.

 

[Joe]

I can say, though, that from where I am standing in the southeastern United States, the notion that American cops are trigger-happy live wires is grossly overblown.

I agree. I don't think American cops are trigger happy, and I don't think there's any evidence that they are. That said, statistically there is going to be "one bad apple" who is going to be trigger happy. That may be the case here, with the vast majority of ICE agents having and showing a lot of restraint.

I am absolutely amazed at how those with strong political loyalties are watching the same videos and coming away with polar opposite observations.

The reason for that is that the *actual* details of what happened in the videos are being used as a foil for the real discussion that no one dares to admit to or make explicit. If this was just about whether or not she hit him with her car to an extent that he feared for his life or the lives of others and therefore was justified in shooting, there would be very little debate at all. People would throw out their opinion and then drop it and leave it to the investigation, because they all know they can't know for sure.

The real topic that is fueling the debate but is not being admitted to is whether or not her political beliefs made him shooting her justified, over and above any alleged impact with her car. What many people supportive of ICE WANT to say but can't (for obvious reasons) is: "Well somebody's gotta start shooting a few of those radical lefties to send a message to the rest!" Post that on X and I'd say you'd get a lot of likes and reposts, but you'd also probably get a time out or a ban. Such is the state of the country and the discourse on SM.

 

[SevenFeathers]

do Americans have laws that state citizens need to obey police instructions or else?

It depends on the situation. If I am under arrest, then yes, I would need to obey instructions. If I am just being questioned, then I have the right to remain silent, or ask, "Am I free to leave?". If the answer is "no", then I would ask, "Am I under arrest?" and if "yes", then I would assert my right to remain silent, but I would follow instructions as to movement, etc.

the notion that American cops are trigger-happy live wires is grossly overblown.

They may not be "trigger happy", but they are definitely power hungry and in their minds, we are "guilty". As you mentioned many videos showing what hard jobs they have, there are multiple other videos showing cops abusing people (see, for example, Here's the Deal).

I admit that I am in the camp of "most cops are bastards". However, in the George Floyd case, although I initially thought the cop killed Floyd by kneeling on his neck, after further study, I think the cop was convicted wrongly.

 

[Carlos Alberto]

The real topic that is fueling the debate but is not being admitted to is whether or not her political beliefs made him shooting her justified, over and above any alleged impact with her car. What many people supportive of ICE WANT to say but can't (for obvious reasons) is: "Well somebody's gotta start shooting a few of those radical lefties to send a message to the rest!" Post that on X and I'd say you'd get a lot of likes and reposts, but you'd also probably get a time out or a ban. Such is the state of the country and the discourse on SM.

This is something I wanted to express but didn't know how. I think it's similar to what happened when Charlie Kirk was assassinated, the people on the other team said he deserved it because he was a hateful fascist.

Everybody thinks that their team is the good guys and the other team is the bad guys. One problem with this game is that if you are committed to your team and they start behaving badly then you become the bad guys.

Just to be clear, I don't think anybody in the forum would disagree that illegal immigration is a big problem, that Trump has a strong mandate from the American people to enforce immigration laws, that the the ICE agents are doing this very difficult job and that Renee Good was a far left lunatic who was doing something illegal and morally wrong in interfering with the ICE agents, right?

I think what we're trying to discern is whether the ICE agent was justified to shoot her or not. Whether it was self defense or not.

 

[Ruth]

I agree. I don't think American cops are trigger happy, and I don't think there's any evidence that they are. That said, statistically there is going to be "one bad apple" who is going to be trigger happy. That may be the case here, with the vast majority of ICE agents having and showing a lot of restraint.

ICE agents have also had to endure a lot of targeted and financed "protests" from leftist aligned groups. Those groups seem to believe a lot of what they are told by authority figures and 'trusted sources'.

ICE has been harrassed and physically prevented from doing their jobs which was supposed to be targetting illegals aliens with CRIMINAL intent, or those who are simply criminals. They are meant to be taking the very people off the streets who would actively HARM and/or exploit the people who are protesting their removal.

I think the political divide has been weaponised against the average 'normie'. They think they are free to "protest" without realising they may be deliberately engaging in some very stupid and dangerous behaviour, apparently believeing their "rights" are going to protect them.

It's somewhat like a person who wishes to protest a war, deliberately inserting themselves into the war zone, then being surprised when they are shot at and abused by both sides.

I have no sympathy for deliberately stupid behaviour, but I am sympathetic if the person actually believes what they were doing is safe, correct, the right thing to do, and they have been deliberately mislead by others. However, people ARE expected to have discernment, not leave themselves open to manipulation at the drop of a hat.

 

[nortkee]

I have no sympathy for deliberately stupid behaviour, but I am sympathetic if the person actually believes what they were doing is safe, correct, the right thing to do, and they have been deliberately mislead by others. However, people ARE expected to have discernment, not leave themselves open to manipulation at the drop of a hat.

This is where I’m finding myself most days lately, about a myriad of world events and trends. Just a general resigned feeling of, “Well, what did you EXPECT to happen?”

Honestly, trying my best to maintain this level of affable resignation about the state of things is pretty much the only way I can get through the day without being cross.

 

[Beau]

I admit that I am in the camp of "most cops are bastards".

I don't think that's the case personally. Now, I have watched hundreds of videos of cops abusing their power and have been incensed after reading stories of cops shooting and killing someone who didn't do anything wrong. Justine Diamond's murder in 2017 by a cop in Minneapolis is a prime example. I was extremely angry when it happened. When I was younger I had a number of very negative interactions with police who absolutely abused their power and did not follow the law. I've also had very positive interactions with police in a number of high stress situations where they displayed the correct actions to de-escalate.

The fact is, I would never want to be a cop, especially not in a large city. It seems like an especially stressful and difficult job, made even more so since Ferguson Missouri, George Floyd, and the defund the police movement began and cops have been judged as evil simply for wearing a badge. I don't think it's fair to paint cops with a broad brush in either direction. Like any other sample of humans, there are going to be shit cops and there are going to be good ones. It is fair to point out that pathological types will seek out jobs in law enforcement because of the power dynamic.

But this specific situation isn't a case of a cop coming up on an innocent person and depriving them of their rights or otherwise abusing their power. This lady inserted herself into an active ICE operation that was meant to apprehend a criminal illegal immigrant, which probably makes the agents a bit more on edge than normal. She intentionally obstructed the agents' ability to do their job. When they tried to get her out of her vehicle to detain her for obstruction she tried to flee and in doing so hit one of the agents. This cost her her life. Do I think it's a good thing that that happened? No, it's horrible. Her children lost their mother. But it was entirely avoidable on her part.

Did the ICE agent overreact and use deadly force in a situation that didn't require it? Sitting in our house and watching the video, it's understandable to make that argument. It's more difficult to put ourselves in his headspace than it is to say that Renee Good didn't deserve to die for what she did. But as Ruth pointed out above, ICE agents are dealing with a lot of insanity from the leftists who believe that those agents are causing harm to people. We can debate the merits of those beliefs all we want - I would not doubt that some ICE agents are using brutality and force beyond what is required - but I don't think anyone can say that what Renee Good was doing was in any way beneficial. To me the fault for what happened should be pointed at the leftist government officials who enacted policies to bring in illegal violent criminals which led to the need to remove them, along with the corresponding progressive media and internet provocateurs who whip people up into a frenzy over ICE actions towards illegals.

Renee Good was a victim of that social engineering of chaos. Is that absolving the ICE agent of "murdering an innocent bystander" or generally reacting in a way that far exceeded the danger he faced? It's possible that's what I'm doing, I'm open to the idea though I don't see it that way. Was this killing something that was good because it sends a message to the crazy leftists that if you fuck around, you'll find out? That wasn't something I was immediately conscious of when first seeing the story though later on I did consider that to be a possible positive effect and maybe would get people to calm down and let ICE remove the criminal illegals so that our cities can be safer. I can also see how it would have the opposite effect and create more animosity, more harassment towards ICE and police, and generally more chaos. Losing her life for what she did does feel like an especially harsh lesson, but I don't think the agent should be charged with murder for doing what he did.

 

[Zy1]

I have been very reluctant to post in this thread due to the high level of emotion involved, but here I go anyway.

As to the intentions, I don't think we can know for certain on either party, and likely never will.

Renee is gone and therefore is unable to tell us.

Whether he is a good man or a psycho, the officer would be wise to lawyer up and not say anything.

What strikes me as important are the results.

Renee, her partner, and her kids have experienced a horrific tragedy. My heart breaks for all of them.

If the officer is a good man, then the outcome for him is equally tragic.

The division created is massive.

I've had heated exchanges with a friend and also my wife. In both cases, they had only seen the MSM edited videos, which refused to show any contact between the vehicle and the officer.
My wife has now seen two videos where the contact is clear. I hope it can help her to realize the manipulation involved.

I think there is some division felt here in the forum as well. Let's remember the C's warning in that regard.

Overall, the lizards must be having a feast. Makes me lean toward some 4D influence, as has been mentioned.

If I may be so bold as to suggest that it may be helpful to re-read your own posts and see if emotions might have gotten in the way of objectivity. Perhaps there could be a lesson in doing so.

 

[Timótheos]

Her home was "a few blocks" away.

Interesting, I didn't know that. I had read earlier somewhere that she had driven to Minnesota from a different state. Thanks for the clarification Niall.

This does raise an interesting question though. Why did she feel the need to drive her car to an ICE protest if it was only a few blocks away from her house? This, and the perpendicular position of her car in relation to the street, gives us insight into her motives and suggests an element of premeditation, in that she had planned to bring her car there with the specific intention of blocking ICE vehicles in order to prevent them from doing their job.

In this case, a little fresh air and exercise would have literally saved her life.

 

[Equinox]

Interesting, I didn't know that. I had read earlier somewhere that she had driven to Minnesota from a different state. Thanks for the clarification Niall.

This does raise an interesting question though. Why did she feel the need to drive her car to an ICE protest if it was only a few blocks away from her house? This, and the perpendicular position of her car in relation to the street, gives us insight into her motives and suggests an element of premeditation, in that she had planned to bring her car there with the specific intention of blocking ICE vehicles in order to prevent them from doing their job.

In this case, a little fresh air and exercise would have literally saved her life.

It was freezing cold and she's American. Most Americans, especially in the 'burbs, drive everywhere locally even on the nicest of days.