A question about conditioning

[tridean]

I keep getting stuck on certain things and I was hoping to hear others views on this.

One thing I have always known about me, is that I could never kill another human being, while being 'conscious'. I also always found it stupid and laughable that we think we need a bible and a legal system to tell us that we shouldn't kill. I have always said, 'My heart tells me I won't kill, not some book or law'. Those who kill people are either conditioned (eg soldiers), deliberately do it (psycopaths), or are forced into it in a moment of complete fear, which renders them unconscious in a sense; in other words, the only time I could see where I would have the ability to kill is if I saw one of my family members being viciously attacked and somehow I could not see any other way, and I am sure if this was going on, I'd be working on something primal here such as fear, not something conditioned, or is the primal fear also a programme?

So my question is, what part of me is saying that I will never kill? To say one has empathy for another human being, where is that coming from if we are automatons? If our empathy and love for other beings is the real part of us, how do we determine when we are using it, and not the conditioned part of us?

Thanks

 

[Lilou]

It’s a funny coincidence, seeing this thread, Dingo. I just finished a conversation on this very subject. I too thought I could never kill someone, not even a chicken for dinner! But a few years ago, I had a very intense dream, and in this dream, in a situation of me against another, not only did I shoot, I shot to kill.

I was so stunned after I woke up! Stunned that I actually pulled the trigger, without any hesitation. Even though it only happened in a dream, it deeply affected me.

Fast forward to tonight’s conversation. I have in the recent past been stalked by a psychopath. He has not really stalked much lately, perhaps only driving past my home. It is a rather busy street and it is a public roadway. Said psychopath did call my husband’s phone & hang up on Dec 21 (I tracked the phone number, it was placed from his parent's home).

My husband wanted to know if I could pull the trigger, if said psychopath threatened me in my home. I said “Yes, I would shoot to kill”. And I told my husband about the trigger dream. Then I log on and see this thread.

So nothing is black and white. There is right and wrong and the situation that determines which is which. God forbid I would ever have to shoot, but knowing NOW what I do about psychopaths, my very soul would not back down & let fear overtake the brain. I would keep cool & shoot to kill. Or, at least I did in my dream! :P

 

[luke wilson]

I have heard of stories of soldiers in the 2nd world war, who instead of storming and charging at the enemy when they landed on the beaches, they instead ran to help there injured because that way they wont have to kill... Apparently that is why, now, they say they have to break you down and remake you to make you into a ruthless emotionless killing machine because of what the army has obviously had to endure in previous wars...

I think it comes down to who one is deep down, down to there core and what one is willing to do when the moments comes calling! Some people would die before they kill, some would kill within an instant others would hesitate and freeze in the moment. I think it comes down to what kind of personality you have and what kind of conditioning you've undergone plus maybe the level of contact one has with there Real I. In short, it comes down to the interplay between different factors, some within our control and some that arent, OSIT.

Think of it this way Dingo. You obviously live in exceptional times and I think you are under-estimating the power the environment has played on you. You are saying you would never kill another human being whilst being conscious, nor do you think we need a bible or law etc. What about if someone plucked you right now, this very instant and placed you lets say, in britain 2nd world war(I assume you are conscious right now). Or lets say, puts you right in the middle of a Roman army on the march... What would you do? Lets say, they gave you time to live and adopt into that society, where the worth of a man is measured by his bravery in the field of combat, where the rule of law doesnt even exist, where someone can cut you down right in the street for looking them wrong in the eye and there wont be some kind of social backlash, lets say you are living in barbaric times where it's the duty of every man to kill for there community.... Do you think you'll still be making such statements?? Obviously now, due to your current milieu/conditioning, you have the freedom to think about such stuff and indulge yourself and in away it doesnt matter what your answer is to yourself because that answer is transitory and highly influenced by your surroundings and your current circumstances... Personally am thankful that the universe or the world has been greatful enough to not ever put me in such situations(life or death depending on whether you kill or not) because I know for a fact I would fall victim to the situation as I am a weak humanbeing still in search of there Real I.

Lets say, in this scenario, of living in barbaric times, you fail to kill because of fear or cowardice, is that victory for your real I? Let's say you killed for the very reasons, for the ego, for the glory, for survival, is that victory?? What exactly is victory for the Real I in such a case? How exactly does the Real I achieve victory in such an arena? I assume that is what you were getting to... I dont really know! At the moment, I can only speak for the false personality or ego...

To finish off, I dont think, our thoughts of what we can or cant do are an adequate measure of ourselves, I think what really measures us are the experiences that meet us everyday and how we react/act towards them. So in short, the only way you'll know either way, is if the world, the universe throws you in that arena where what is left, is only action and no more words - where what carries weight is action and not words. Then you'll see what you are capable or not capable of doing.

So my question is, what part of me is saying that I will never kill?

Unless you know your Real I, I would say it is your ego. The argument is above and your first paragraph was so outlandish and judgemental in my opinion! Especially this statement. It could just be that it has struck an emotional chord...

I also always found it stupid and laughable that we think we need a bible and a legal system to tell us that we shouldn't kill. I have always said, 'My heart tells me I won't kill, not some book or law'.

 

[Buddy]

Hi Dingo. I believe that I understand what you're saying, but since this is a sticking point I was wondering...

How would you ask the question if you were unable to use an absolute (like 'never') and if you knew empathy exists on a continuum (of different degrees, amounts, extents or some magnitude)?

 

[andi]

Lilou, reading your post made me think -I definitely advise reading Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking by Malcolm Gladwell if you haven't already. It is an excellent book.

Dingo, I see your ration and me thinks it's interesting, and worth dinging for answers.

 

[tridean]

This has been a quantum leap for me in understanding. It's like I feel this 'about time' in me.

I see now that the idea that I would never kill anyone is simply an idea and in my case maybe a reaction. There was a time when my brother terrorized our family so much that I planned to kill him and bury him in the bushes far out of town. The only thing I couldn't come up with was the actual method. I knew there was so much bush around that the chances of him being found was close to nil. But it never happened, and I never even got close, it was just something that I felt was my only choice for my parents sake and indeed my own to a lesser extent. But still it was just an idea.

I admit that when I see Psycopaths on TV, I want him dead, and I even think I would have no issue pulling the trigger myself given the chance. But I see him as a psycopath and not a human being. My brother on the other hand I have later thought as a human being but troubled. But at the time of his worst, I couldn't have cared less, he was causing too much hurt, he seemed out of place. Of course back then I knew nothing of psycopaths. Point taken well, thanks Luke

It really is about actions and not words or ideas. To answer you Bud, I realize that my question is flawed.

I apologize Luke if my post struck you emotionally, but in another sense, your chord has taught me something...I made a terrible assumption

Thanks

Edit: Don't want to incriminate myself

 

[Lilou]

Lilou, reading your post made me think -I definitely advise reading Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking by Malcolm Gladwell if you haven't already. It is an excellent book.

Thanks for the suggestion, andi. Wikipedia says that a movie based on this book is to be released in 2011, staring Leonardo DiCaprio. No title was given, but a short description says Leo has an uncanny ability to read peoples faces & body language.

I have read Gavin DeBecker's book, The Gift of Fear. It seems to be similar to Blink. I guess the most important point is that we should heed our intuitive warnings and not try to rationalize or "make nice" in situations that could cause us untold harm, or even death.

 

[Lilou]

Dingo, I see a total 180 degree turn from your first post, to your last post. It left me a bit puzzled. Perhaps that is what you meant by a "quantum leap" in understanding? Planning to kill someone & bury them in the bush shows deliberate intent to do harm. While having to defend yourself against an intruder, is quite another.

I can see how the idea to kill your brother could occur - prolonged stress can cause profound changes in brain chemistry, so thought can easily turn irrational and dangerous. Thank god you did not act on these thoughts! I would not beat myself up over past thoughts too much, but it is good to analyze & understand why they occurred and take precautions to not allow such imbalances to occur again.

As for simply pulling the trigger on a known psychopath - I cannot see myself doing that, unless I was defending myself. Remember, we are striving to be STO candidates and that means not interfering with anothers free will, even if they are psychopathic.

 

[luke wilson]

Hey Dingo, I think your questions are probably some of the hardest to answer so I dont think you should apologise or feel they were flawed... I think what was flawed was indeed the assumptions you were making but not the questions...

I think sometimes we are caught in situations that engulf us and make us into there slaves. Obviously with knowledge and awareness, we can rise up and not fall victim to what surrounds us, but that takes strength.

There was a time when my brother terrorized our family so much that I planned to kill him and bury him in the bushes far out of town. The only thing I couldn't come up with was the actual method. I knew there was so much bush around that the chances of him being found was close to nil. But it never happened, and I never even got close, it was just something that I felt was my only choice for my parents sake and indeed my own to a lesser extent. But still it was just an idea.

This is an example where you could have fallen victim to a situation and made a grave error. Maybe this is a programme you have in you, where you have this hero complex where you feel you need to take action on other peoples behalf? Things start from an idea. That's the first step. I think you should look into this. Let us assume, the wave gave you the means, the method but your basic essence remained the same, you would fall into a big hole, OSIT.

I admit that when I see the likes of D Ch$%ney on TV, I want him dead, and I even think I would have no issue pulling the trigger myself given the chance. But I see him as a psycopath and not a human being.

One day in the future, let us assume pychopaths become a well known phenomena plus all the damage they have caused and are capable of causing. What would you do or support? To kill them? Maybe that is to harsh, maybe just let them not reproduce and let the ones that are alive or carry that set of genes die off naturally and then breath a sigh of relief when the last one is gone.... Maybe this is where the real battleground for who becomes STO and who becomes STS will be fought(?) I think at one point the Cs said something about a thousand year period where that will happen(I might have misinterpreted)... Maybe you have STS people right now, who are asleep(automatons) but who will be STO and maybe you have STO candidates now who will become STS, mainly because of this 'hero' complex in my opinion. You gotta ask yourself why TPTB are pushing this hero thing so much with all these superhero blockbuster movies that have been hitting our screens for like the past 11 years. It's pretty much a yearly phenomena now.

These are indeed tough questions you are thinking about Dingo. I dont really know what the right or wrong answers are. All I know is that you shouldnt under-estimate the power the environment has over you. After all, where does the illusion come from?

 

[tridean]

Unless you know your Real I, I would say it is your ego. The argument is above and your first paragraph was so outlandish and judgemental in my opinion! Especially this statement. It could just be that it has struck an emotional chord...

It was this quote by Luke that jolted me. I realized that a) everyone is different and those differences are the result of many many factors, and b) more importantly, that we really don't know who we are, and what we say to ourselves is lies. I can think I will not do it, but I don't really know until faced with a situation.

Just on my brother, his actions put fear in me too. I feared being around him, and whatever I was thinking at the time, I am sure it was as much for me as for my parents. It is quite possible there was a hero element, but the memories of fearing him being near me are more vivid than anything else. I really don't see how I could have gone through with my plans, it is one thing to think it, another to do it, but at the time, I saw no way to stop him, it was just the way it was, that situation at that time.

When I was about 19 I was living on my own and on the bones of my butt. I had no money, no food and I was fed up. I actually decided to put on a trench coat, put a kitchen knife in my pocket and I walked to the shopping complex to an ATM and stood behind a big bush waiting for someone to come and pull money out. While I was standing there I just started crying because I knew it was not something I could go through with, and it had nothing to do with being caught, I just could not do that to another human being, not even causing them fear from me sneaking up from behind them, let alone pulling out a knife. I went home and got out the yellow pages and as determined as hell, started looking for a job. It was late at night, got to 'B', saw baker, and walked down to the local baker and asked for a job. A week later I was working there.

In the end, my brother ended up leaving and so the fear was put to rest, and now today as adults, he looks up to me on many levels. As for the incident at the ATM, it was the attempted action that finally pushed me to see another way. It was just the way it was back then

It is these two incidents in my life that make me 'think' and 'feel' that I do not have the ability to kill another human being. In reference to the Psycopath I mentioned in my 2nd post (which I have replaced with Psycopath because I do not want to incriminate myself in any possible way), I see them as a threat and as paranoid as this sounds, I feel more threatened by them as each day passes. I think it has become even more so since my last son was born and diagnosed with ACC. I am scared of laws being passed that force us to have to take vaccines, especially those that have not been tested on anyone, let alone someone with my sons condition, and it's not just vaccines either. They scare me because of their power and I have to admit, it makes me hate them!

But in the end, it is all talk, and this is where I have had the quantum leap. As Luke said,

So in short, the only way you'll know either way, is if the world, the universe throws you in that arena where what is left, is only action and no more words

Did the incident at the ATM teach me anything on a pure level, i.e. from the real 'I'? Who knows?

What will I really do if I am there and I see a nurse about to put a needle in my sons arm believing or fearing the vaccine is poison or could cause more harm than good to him? Who knows?

Writing this post has highlighted something for me, because I realize now that I am trying to find something to build from, because I don't think I have had that moment yet where I have seen or felt my real I. I keep thinking that at some point I will have an aha moment that I have read about from others and it just has not happened. All I do is question myself and everything around me and have been doing so for so long, it is now to the point where it is choking me and I think I was desperately looking for something that represented the real I in me that was already there.

I guess in due time it will come or I will quit. One of the two

 

[obyvatel]

Writing this post has highlighted something for me, because I realize now that I am trying to find something to build from, because I don't think I have had that moment yet where I have seen or felt my real I. I keep thinking that at some point I will have an aha moment that I have read about from others and it just has not happened. All I do is question myself and everything around me and have been doing so for so long, it is now to the point where it is choking me and I think I was desperately looking for something that represented the real I in me that was already there.

I guess in due time it will come or I will quit. One of the two

Dingo, it is possible that as you question everything and keep discarding what is not real, you will eventually discover what is real. The process may be slow but it is quite robust. You can start with the assumption that something is real - like you did when you started this thread - and then through your own efforts and feedback from the network you got to see something you were not aware of earlier. This is real progress. In this process you have strengthened your real I.

The emotional anguish that you are perhaps feeling due to what you perceive as a lack of progress can be handled in different ways. I was reading some of your posts in the "praying" thread - here I would like to say that prayer is one powerful tool that can help with this. Per my understanding, prayer can be a simple expression of what lies in one's heart - if you are feeling like you are choking or feel like you need some assistance, you could just directly state your concerns to the universe along with your other efforts to practically address the issue. Since prayer most likely originates from the heart and feelings, there may not be much practical value in trying to over-intellectualize it.
fwiw

 

[luke wilson]

Hi Dingo,

I feel compelled to post a reply after reading your latest reply.

I dont think you should be hard on yourself. From what I've read,

Did the incident at the ATM teach me anything on a pure level, i.e. from the real 'I'? Who knows?

I would say yes. You obviously got caught up in a very hard situation where desperation took over and despite that, something stopped you from harming another person. I think in this situation you found a real taste of who you really are. I would say you had a meeting with your Real I or came pretty close. And you recovered remarkably from what made you nearly turn into a criminal and ended up getting work pretty much immediately... I would say you are stronger than you think after reading your accounts. Just keep slowly working on yourself and I think everything will be fine. They say the universe never throws us anything we cant handle. Dont give up.

I have to say that I might have been wrong originally and you might have taken it to imply that you dont know or listen to your Real I when I said this

Unless you know your Real I, I would say it is your ego. The argument is above and your first paragraph was so outlandish and judgemental in my opinion! Especially this statement. It could just be that it has struck an emotional chord...

It might infact be that you know your Real I. Maybe you dont identify with it is all the same way you identify with your personality which is the case for pretty much everyone as far as I understand. All these things in a way are beyond us and are cosmic in nature so again, I would say dont be to hard on yourself.