Advanced Scientific Health

[Laura]

Recently a forum member posted about certain products. Since it was blatant advertising, the post was removed. However, I would like to repost it here and maybe ask some questions and get some feedback from other forum members as well as get some help researching some of these claims/products.

Anyone with chronic conditions/diseases or a desire to remain free of such, would be greatly benefited by the info and formulas available from Advanced Scientific Health. The basic (provable) premise is that if the body is given the true building block nutrients that it needs - then disease will be self-eliminated or will not arise. The problem in our current condition is that our food supply has become not only non-nutrisious but poisonous. Documented conditions that have disappeared include cancer of all kinds, MS, chronic fatigue/fibromyalgia, heart disease, arthritis, kidney failure (people coming OFF dialysis), skin diseases, dementia, diabetes, hypertension, obesity, and the list goes on. My own and family's experience is consistent with the above. I'm not going to try to explain to or convince anyone - do your own research - (in fact people that participate with Advanced Scientific Health call themselves "researchers"). The best way to introduce yourself to the material is to tune into two weeky live telecons for an hour and listen to the founders of ASH talk about their research, and listen to the results that ASH members are getting. Here's the telecon info:

ASH Product & Health Education Conference Call
Guests and Members Welcome
Every Saturday
10:00 AM PST, 11:00 AM MST, 12:00 Noon CST, 1:00 PM EST
Every Wednesday Night
6:00 PM PST, 7:00 PM MST, 8:00 PM CST, 9:00 PM EST
212-990-8000 Pin 3024

I "guaran-damn-tee" you will learn much in just an hour. Two related sites for preview are:

_themostimportantwebsite.com and _ashnow.com

Enjoy,
Larry

Upon examining the ASH website _http://www.advancedscientifichealth.com/home.asp

it just looks like another MLM. You buy a membership that has to be renewed every month (30 bux) to be able to purchase their products at a low price.

Here are the products: _http://www.advancedscientifichealth.com/goshopping.asp

They seem like pretty good combinations. But not enough information is given out in the open. Each of them are dosed in teaspoons, but you don't know how many teaspoons are in each bottle or how long it is supposed to last or how many bottles you are allowed to buy, etc.

I'm irritated by the withholding of information.

So, what I really want to know is this: can a cost/benefit analysis be done that is clear and actually shows this program to be useful?

 

[Mrs.Tigersoap]

What troubles me is that they don't say how they get their vitamins. I guess (but I can be wrong) that they are synthetic. If that's the case, don't synthetic vitamins eventually 'force' your body to get rid of your natural ones, which is why whole foods complexes (like a 'dried' fruit/vegetables vitamin complex) may be better? Mercola talks about it and so does Jimmy Scott in this article:

[...]The key here is the phrase "whole natural complex". Albert Szent György is the man who won a Nobel Prize in 1937 for his isolation ("discovery") of Vitamin C. In 1936 he wrote the science journal "Nature" a letter noting that ascorbic acid was NOT Vitamin C, as it could not cure scurvy (this was natural ascorbic acid isolated from the whole natural complex–no one knew yet how to synthesize it), whereas the whole natural complex (a concentrate from Hungarian red pepper) was extremely effective. These days the FDA has defined ascorbate as vitamin C, a serious error of ignorance. Since we have been misled to believe that ascorbic acid IS vitamin C we take those synthetic pills in the belief that we are meeting our real vitamin C need.

Many whole natural complexes are substantially or completely destroyed by freezing (including freeze drying) or by cooking (particularly with microwave). We especially need the whole natural complexes of A, C, and E. We cannot acquire them from most supplements. When you take synthetic vitamins you increase your body’s excretion of the natural ones, leaving you even more deficient than before!

Almost all so-called "Vitamin C" in supplements is synthetic ascorbic acid or salts such as calcium or potassium ascorbate (it is called "natural" even though is is chemically made in a vat because it is made from “natural” corn sugar). The ascorbate molecule is only part of the whole natural complex and is there to protect the rest of the complex, which is why it is an antioxidant. Likewise, tocopherol is not really Vitamin E. It, too, is a molecular structure in place to protect the rest of the molecules in the natural Vitamin E complex. Research clearly shows that synthetic forms of the vitamins can be dangerous when ingested in large amounts. (found on http://www.subtlenergy.com/articles/Health_Kinesiologist/issues/06_03_protecting_ourselves_part1.htm)

I don't think that the supplements this company is selling are natural whole food complexes, or they would certainly put the emphasis on it.
The whole 'no info/membership-based/pyramid' thing is a real put-off in my opinion. I would never buy anything from a company with that kind of mentality.

Sorry, this was not the cost/benefit analysis you were asking for, but I thought it might help (a bit).

 

[Laura]

The whole 'no info/membership-based/pyramid' thing is a real put-off in my opinion. I would never buy anything from a company with that kind of mentality.

Sorry, this was not the cost/benefit analysis you were asking for, but I thought it might help (a bit).

Every little bit helps.

That's pretty much my take on it... if there really was something hot-darn beneficial about these supplements, they would be tootling that like mad. The way they are going about selling them is a real turn off without a lot more information.

And sorry, I don't have time to go and hang out and listen to lectures on the net. I speed read. If you want to get my attention, give me the facts, make them checkable, and put it in writing.

 

[Tarri]

I found a site here that gives the history of the man and how the company came about, and list's the ingredients of the products at the bottom of the page. skimming through it I have found claims of test's done by "Noble prize winning research", but the site does not seem to include that research information. There are quite a few links, but nothing that seems to provide proof or research info on their product or company. Here is the link.


http://naturalcuresnaturalcures.blogspot.com/2006/05/message-from-advanced-scientific.html


Here I found some info on amounts and how to take.



http://www.advancedhealthplan.com/whatilearned.html

Tarri

 

[Laetare]

I found a site here that gives the history of the man and how the company came about, and list's the ingredients of the products at the bottom of the page. skimming through it I have found claims of test's done by "Noble prize winning research", but the site does not seem to include that research information. There are quite a few links, but nothing that seems to provide proof or research info on their product or company. Here is the link.

_http://naturalcuresnaturalcures.blogspot.com/2006/05/message-from-advanced-scientific.html

Here I found some info on amounts and how to take.

_http://www.advancedhealthplan.com/whatilearned.html

Tarri

Hi Tarri,

A web search on 'advanced scientific health' returns pages of results. After looking at some of these sites I am skeptical of the ASH information. Basically, they're all posting the exact same thing, with a few individuals including some personal observations. It looks like a 'cut and paste' operation, get the info out on the net and see who you can catch.

Where is the real information, research, citations, footnotes? All I can see are directions to the ASH website from little bits of cloned information that have been snipped out and placed on the ASH member sites. One big loop de loop. Why not publish an essay on why the ASH products are better than another product? Back the product up with specific information and not just generalities.

Laetare

 

[dantem]

"Noble prize winning research"

Mmm... I'm sure I've heard this before from the mouth of the Herbalife's guys. They sell good stuff to get really fat... It's a MLM business, spread all around Italy. Over the first month it's good, then it gets a little bit 'heavy on the stomach' and if you don't do a lot of physical exercise you get sick .

To me it's like poison, but I'm not saying it's the same stuff Larry is talking about. It's just this 'Nobel prize' thing that got my attention. FYI.

 

[judvic]

What troubles me is that they don't say how they get their vitamins. I guess (but I can be wrong) that they are synthetic. If that's the case, don't synthetic vitamins eventually 'force' your body to get rid of your natural ones, which is why whole foods complexes (like a 'dried' fruit/vegetables vitamin complex) may be better? Mercola talks about it and so does Jimmy Scott in this article:

[...]The key here is the phrase "whole natural complex". Albert Szent György is the man who won a Nobel Prize in 1937 for his isolation ("discovery") of Vitamin C. In 1936 he wrote the science journal "Nature" a letter noting that ascorbic acid was NOT Vitamin C, as it could not cure scurvy (this was natural ascorbic acid isolated from the whole natural complex–no one knew yet how to synthesize it), whereas the whole natural complex (a concentrate from Hungarian red pepper) was extremely effective. These days the FDA has defined ascorbate as vitamin C, a serious error of ignorance. Since we have been misled to believe that ascorbic acid IS vitamin C we take those synthetic pills in the belief that we are meeting our real vitamin C need.

Many whole natural complexes are substantially or completely destroyed by freezing (including freeze drying) or by cooking (particularly with microwave). We especially need the whole natural complexes of A, C, and E. We cannot acquire them from most supplements. When you take synthetic vitamins you increase your body’s excretion of the natural ones, leaving you even more deficient than before!

Almost all so-called "Vitamin C" in supplements is synthetic ascorbic acid or salts such as calcium or potassium ascorbate (it is called "natural" even though is is chemically made in a vat because it is made from “natural” corn sugar). The ascorbate molecule is only part of the whole natural complex and is there to protect the rest of the complex, which is why it is an antioxidant. Likewise, tocopherol is not really Vitamin E. It, too, is a molecular structure in place to protect the rest of the molecules in the natural Vitamin E complex. Research clearly shows that synthetic forms of the vitamins can be dangerous when ingested in large amounts. (found on http://www.subtlenergy.com/articles/Health_Kinesiologist/issues/06_03_protecting_ourselves_part1.htm)

I don't think that the supplements this company is selling are natural whole food complexes, or they would certainly put the emphasis on it.
The whole 'no info/membership-based/pyramid' thing is a real put-off in my opinion. I would never buy anything from a company with that kind of mentality.

Sorry, this was not the cost/benefit analysis you were asking for, but I thought it might help (a bit).

Hi,

This is a completely one sided article providing easy answers (and probably at least partially false) to difficult questions.

There are two issues:
1 is human work able to do as well as Nature. If not is it able to do at least some good?
2 The peculiar status of ascorbic acid. Ascorbic acid is produced by most animal species in the liver via glucose and an enzyme. Humans don't have this enzyme but we are able to reproduce the process and obtain a synthetical ascorbic acid that has the same spatial structure as the natural one (Left cherality). Here is another view on this issue: http://vitamincfoundation.org/NaturalC.htm

I don't know where the truth is, and as I am not a chemist I have to rely on others.
I chose to rely on Linus Pauling work and I am exactly following the supplementation that he proposes in his book, which I higly recommend, "how to live longer and feel better". I take 10g/day synthetic ascorbic acid and more when sick. I have advised this to my parents who tried it and benefited a lot from it, as I have, as my wife has.
Maybe it is not as good as natural c vitamin, but I find it a good compromise. And the objective datas I have gathered from the use of it are overwhelmingly positive. However I cannot be sure that there will not be long term side effects, but Linus Pauling says that no (he used it for many decades and lived to 94: according to him his regimen can extend longevity by 25 years).


Ludovic

 

[Mrs.Tigersoap]

I see what you mean. I, too, have taken vitamins/supplements with good results (and to be fair, with sometimes bad results as well). But this solution was always temporary and coincided with a period when I had not watched my diet carefully. To compensate, if you will. It's the quickest way to regain what you lost.

Because when you're lacking something (vitamins, etc.), your body will crave it and need it so much that it will try and make do with just about anything you give him. But the aim should always be to give your body the best you can, particularly in today's world, where food is no longer what it was. And yes, I think that sometimes man-made 'foods/supplements' can do some good. You said it yourself, 'it's a good compromise'. The natural next step being, to me at least, to find a way not to have to compromise and just find the best. (By the way, and I don't want to start another subject about poor food quality, but having to find compromises to compensate for vegetables and fruits that are void of nutritional qualities is a surreal situation - but hey, that's the neo-liberalist world we're living in, but should we really have to put up with that? Soon tablets will be the only thing we eat, and everybody will find that perfectly normal - I'm exaggerating, but the Soylent green scenario just scares the life out of me).

I have a practice and some of my clients have a really, really poor diet, and come for health issues. A lot of them would take any supplement on the planet rather than changing anything to the way they eat, even when their diet is almost threatening their lives. It's just so much more convenient than having to watch what you're eating, and I get that. I'm not saying you and your family are like that, mind you. Just that supplements are best used as a temporary thing on top of a balanced diet. And I believe (but I'm no chemist) that the whole foods solution might be a better compromise, but I'm willing to change my mind with good data, as always. ;)

Thanks for your input.

 

[judvic]

Hi,

I have sent emails to the site requesting details about the products but they did not answer. Their products do seem interesting and the articles are grounded on serious data, but on the other hand their communication is at best clumsy or maybe even deceiving...

You said it yourself, 'it's a good compromise'. The natural next step being, to me at least, to find a way not to have to compromise and just find the best.

I did not intend to say that the synthetic ascorbic acid is a compromise from the quality stand point. This I am not able to tell because I lack the expertise.
The compromise I refer to is from the knowledge stand point: knowledge I do not have, valuable information and personnal experiment I have some. So taking synthetic ascorbic acid is a compromise because it takes into account different information, sometimes contradictory, and also it takes into account the world such as it is (electromagnetic and chemical pollution may require us to shield ourself against it, and ascorbic acid could be a good shield).
But once again I did not intend to say that synthetic ascorbic acid is a "cheap " compromise to natural C vitamin.
I wanted to stress this because ascorbic acid mega doses have made quite a change in my life and my relatives' life, and I would like to pass this message clearly in this forum.

I have a practice and some of my clients have a really, really poor diet, and come for health issues. A lot of them would take any supplement on the planet rather than changing anything to the way they eat, even when their diet is almost threatening their lives. It's just so much more convenient than having to watch what you're eating, and I get that. I'm not saying you and your family are like that, mind you. Just that supplements are best used as a temporary thing on top of a balanced diet. And I believe (but I'm no chemist) that the whole foods solution might be a better compromise, but I'm willing to change my mind with good data, as always. ;)

I agree with you and I pay great attention to nutrition. I cook everything as far from possible from scratch. I have implemented a new nutrition scheme and it has produced great results.
But maybe supplementation is not only nutrition. Supplementation could be a way to enhance our bodies that maybe the product of an imperfect evolution process.
Of course if one believes that Humans are the top of the Creation, the image of God, then this argument is not valid.

Best regards.

Ludovic