Am I a Cynic or Do I Have Bad Timing?

[fishmonkeystew]

So, am I the only one here who has never seen a ghost, or a UFO, or a grey, or a lizzie, or experienced anything paranormal-wait, maybe once... But really, I want to believe that these things exist (I would LOVE to see something, and in many ways it only makes sense that they are real), but without any type of proof or experience-well, I just can't.

 

[anart]

So, am I the only one here who has never seen a ghost, or a UFO, or a grey, or a lizzie, or experienced anything paranormal-wait, maybe once... But really, I want to believe that these things exist (I would LOVE to see something, and in many ways it only makes sense that they are real), but without any type of proof or experience-well, I just can't.

I've never seen a ghost, a UFO, a grey, or a lizzie. As far as experiencing anything 'paranormal' - considering that I'm working on figuring out what is 'normal' and what is not, I don't even catagorize things that way.

Why do you want to 'believe' these things exist? Why would you think that anyone here would want you to 'believe' these things exist?

We work here with one thing - a working hypothesis to which we add and subtract data as it becomes available. Period. We don't believe in things - we just notice and catalogue and observe and compare and contrast data as we uncover it. Some of the data we have observed indicate that there are denizens in this shared reality that aren't straight out of a JC Penney catalog - some of the date indicates that these denizens have always been here - so we follow the data and always stay open for contrasting data, in case we need to shift our understanding to bring it closer to reality - so we can see the Universe as it sees itself - so we can know.

My point is that it seems that you think that we are 'paranormal' phenomenon chasers. I can't speak for every member of the forum, but for the bulk of the members here, I can say with confidence that that is not the case. We do not want to believe anything - we want to KNOW.

 

[fishmonkeystew]

ahhh, I'm in the right place. I too want to KNOW. Hence the "I'll believe it when I see it" attitude. Of course that attitude in itself can be crippling if taken too far. Maybe its not so much that I want to believe these things exist as much as I want some proof. And I don't mean to insinuate that any of you are 'paranormal' phenomenon chasers. In fact, after reading many of the discussions here, I know that there is just as much debunking going on as there is offering up of new information. Beats me...I have a hunger inside to know what the heck is going on, and the feeling that not all is as it seems. That's how I ended up here in the first place. But a feeling is just a feeling, not knowledge. I'm here for knowledge.

Oh, and by the way, I dig the Quote from Harvey Krumpet. Though I can't remember the artist's name off the top of my head, I've seen two other pieces by him (Brother, and Cousin) and loved them. I'm always trying to keep my eye open for more of the same.

 

[Renaissance]

I too want to KNOW. Hence the "I'll believe it when I see it" attitude.

umm, so...do you want to know or believe? In relation to the above attitude, isn't your perception fallible? If so, why should you put faith in it?

Of course that attitude in itself can be crippling if taken too far. Maybe its not so much that I want to believe these things exist as much as I want some proof.

It seems you're confusing proof with knowledge. Accepting proof as knowledge can probably be crippling too. From what you write I can't tell if you're interesting in learning or just in wanting proof. This group was made for learning.

What do you want to do with this 'proof' (particularly in relation to the paranormal) you're looking for anyway?

 

[fishmonkeystew]

Hehehe, tough crowd I see. Look, no need to overanalyze what I say. I am interested in learning. Sometimes, part of the learning process is to gain proof about the "facts" that you are being taught. If the proof is false or faked, then its not really proof is it? Knowledge is not proof and proof is not knowledge. I do understand that.

As far as what I want to do with this 'proof', its curiousity that drives me. The desire to know. And therefore be able to see more clearly, to become a more well-rounded individual. I can't accept so called "knowledge" without some way to verifiy that it is true. Isn't that what proof is? I'm not sure how you are reading into my comments, or if you think that I have some hidden agenda. I kinda feel like I got off on a bad foot with you folks, which was not my intention.

When I was curious about music, I went out and learned about it. I read about music theory, I taught myself to play a couple of instruments, I spoke to others about music and picked their brains for facts and tips. I've done the same with aircooled volkswagens, and I'm currently doing the same thing with electronics. I have an interest in the paranormal, in UFOs, and in many of the other topics that I've seen discussed here. I of course question the validity of some of what is said, but I'm not going to say that its untrue until I've researched and found a way to show that it is or it isn't. I'm not here to flame people, or to shoot down their opinions or ideas. Just to see what others have found. And I'm doing this for my own benefit. 'cuz I'm curious. 'cuz I don't want to walk around blind like so many others. Why are you here?

 

[arkmod]

The desire to know.

If you want to know, then the first thing to do is to STUDY. Now, tell us first what did you study, at which level, how deep. Then, perhaps, we will be able to suggest more things for you to study.

Does it sound like a good idea?

 

[Al Today]

And I don't mean to insinuate that any of you are 'paranormal' phenomenon chasers.

My ego just will not go away, so…
Just speaking for myself here…
When I don’t understand, I cannot see.
As I am exposed to alternative theories, I file them away.
Some ludicrous theories are discarded, while items of potential are contemplated.
My supposed understanding comes from study, testing, and observation.
And I try to remember that test results can be skewed, results are usually not infallible.
Seems to me that nothing is hard fact, or permanent in nature.
I learn by holding these theories, gathering more information, and observing how events “prove’ or ‘disprove’ the items.
Personally here, I feel that ALL IS POSSIBLE.
Hell, I don’t chase 'paranormal' phenomenon.
But, the more I think I understand, the more I think I see.
You’re probably wondering, like what do you think I see.?.?.?
Study this forum, and do research before asking for help.
I know that no questions are dumb, but please do not feel answers are free.
Knowledge is not given, amongst more things, it is a result of some work performed.
Keep your mind open to the possibilities that exist.
Although, I never know what is gonna happen, I do say ‘That Figures’ a lot.
Or now I think I know something that may be, where I saw nothing before.
I’ve said enough.
And remember grasshopper…
Takes time to grow.

 

[fishmonkeystew]

Well said Al Today (I haven't seen Bill the Cat in ages). No questions are dumb, but no anwsers are free. And arkmod, it sounds like a great idea. I haven't had a lot to study, as so many sources that I've found seem like hearsay or conjecture. This has been one of the first places that seemed to be more interested in the truth than just the stories, which is why I signed on. I will be the first to admit that I'm a rookie here. Nice to meet you all, and I hope to be able to have something worth adding to the dialogs and debates here, though I don't feel that I can have a valid opinion until I've studied more. Hopefully, y'all will have patience with my questions, as I'm sure as I try research things I'm going hit some dead ends. Like how do I know which sources are reliable? I have to be careful, cuz I could just spew forth question after question.

 

[ark]

If you really want to go beyond hearsay, you may like to start with Richard Dolan's

UFOs and the National Security State

http://keyholepublishing.com/

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

Also consider this - most people have never seen the earth from space to know it is round, or even seen their own president to, unfortunately, know he is the president. The same goes for many things. I only point this out because lots of things we "know" we have never actually been witness to or have proof of, we just have enough data to conclude with a high degree of probability that they are true. Alternatively, lots of things we were witness to are entirely not what they appear to be. So even if you saw a UFO, for all you know, it's a hologram created to make you think it's a UFO among many other possibilities - so you'd still need other data to know what it is you saw. But there's also possibility of new data to falsify or change our current understanding, so gotta be on the lookout for that. For example, take Bush - is he really our president? Well if you consider all the data that says he stole the election, then that would make him president illegally - so not our president at all. I've never seen the guy, I have no proof that he even exists and is not just a clever hoax that is rendered by a high-speed computer on TV. But even if I made that hypothesis, there is plenty of data that suggests that it is false - but no proof.

Similarly, I've never seen a UFO either, but I have faith that if I can know that the earth is round without ever having been in space, I can also know if they exist and potentially their nature and/or purpose among other things - all that without having to speak to any "aliens". Of course it will never be absolute knowledge, only a judgement of probability based on data that is available to me - but the same is true for everything else too. So right now based on all the data that I have, I can say with a high probability that UFO's exist and are most likely hyperdimensional in nature. Just some thoughts.

 

[fishmonkeystew]

Well first off, thank you ark for that link to Richard Dolan. There are some very compelling ideas there. I've only scratched the surface, but its already got me thinking. And ScioAgapeOmnis you hit it right on the head. I often say that I need to see things to believe them, but in all honesty I know that many things you see are not as they appear. Similarly, many things that I will prolly never see in my lifetime I assume (dangerous) to be true, reguardless of the fact that I'll never wittness it first hand. Often, things that people have believed for decades are proven incorrect in one fell swoop, easily wiping out what was once considered common knowledge.