An STO Economy?

[psychegram]

Enmeshed as we are in the pyramidal feeding hierarchy that is the modern economy, it's hard not to identify modern economics as one of the most - if not the most - STS-oriented system in the world today. Those on the top fixate on profit, while those on the bottom scramble to survive, both strongly STS activities. The key problem, it seems to me, is usury: charging interest for the use of money - whether that created by central banks or loaned out by those further down the chain - inevitably creates conditions whereby all participants are forced into acting out of greed, becoming the Homo economicus of economists' lore. It's not hard to see why this happens: if money is created at interest (ie created as debt), then at any given time there is less money in existence than money owing. Either the economy has to grow, or some people will inevitably have to go bankrupt. Either way, wealth ultimately can flow in only one direction: upwards, towards the top of the pyramid. I don't think I have to spend much more time on this; I imagine everyone here already has a pretty good grasp of this dynamic.

There are, however, other ways of doing things.

About a hundred years ago, the economist Silvio Gesell saw this dynamic, and suggested that it could be reversed by, in essence, reversing the equation that created it. He proposed using demurrage rather than interest: money would be created free of charge, and then over time it would lose value at a steady, pre-determined rate. This would discourage hoarding (ie saving), for there would be little point in simply holding on to one's money when it would be worth less tomorrow than today; instead, it would encourage people to either spend their money, or to simply give it away.

Here's a link to Gesell's book, The Natural Economic Order:
_http://www.utopie.it/pubblicazioni/gesell.htm

His ideas were put into action in the midst of the Great Depression, in the town of Wörgl. Austria. The town prospered, though economists of course debate as to whether the demurrage feature was a crucial part of this prosperity.

More recently, the philosopher Charles Eisenstein has revived the idea, discussing it at some length in his online book The Ascent of Humanity, as well as in a number of articles. His most succinct treatment of the idea - much more detailed and eloquent than I can give - can be found here:
_http://realitysandwich.com/money_a_new_beginning_part_2

Whereas interest tends to concentrate wealth, demurrage promotes its distribution. In any economy with a specialization of labor beyond the family level, human beings need to perform exchanges in order to thrive. Both interest and demurrage represent a fee for the use of money, but the key difference is that in the former system, the fee accrues to those who already have money, while in the latter system it is levied upon them. Wealth comes with a high maintenance cost, thereby recreating the dynamics that governed hunter-gatherer attitudes toward accumulations of possessions.

Whereas security in an interest-based system comes from accumulating money, in a demurrage system it comes from having productive channels through which to direct it – that is, to become a nexus of the flow of wealth and not a point for its accumulation. In other words, it puts the focus on relationships, not on "having". The demurrage system accords with a different sense of self, affirmed not by enclosing more and more of the world within the confines of me and mine, but by developing and deepening relationships with others. It encourages reciprocation, sharing, and the rapid circulation of wealth.

Some of my own thoughts, on how to deploy a free currency in the modern environment, are online here:
_http://frecu.wetpaint.com/

Now, obviously a free currency would not in and of itself be sufficient to switch the economy - and society - to an STO orientation. Quite a bit more would have to change than that. It would, however, be a big step, removing one of the larger obstacles that stands in the way of STO behaviour on the part of ordinary people.  

 

[PepperFritz]

[quote author=psychegram]Enmeshed as we are in the pyramidal feeding hierarchy that is the modern economy, it's hard not to identify modern economics as one of the most - if not the most - STS-oriented system in the world today. [/quote]

The "modern economy"? As opposed to which previous (i.e. pre-modern) economy?

[quote author=psychegram]Those on the top fixate on profit, while those on the bottom scramble to survive, both strongly STS activities. [/quote]

And that would be different from pre-modern societies how? It has been ever thus, and shall be thus until the end of 3rd-density earth. Because we are STS beings living on an STS planet.

[quote author=psychegram]Now, obviously a free currency would not in and of itself be sufficient to switch the economy - and society - to an STO orientation. [/quote]

We are not capable of "switching the economy and society to an STO orientation". Because we are STS. And I would venture to say that there is probably really no such concept as an "STO economy" in a 4th-density STO world, since STO "gives to all who ask". It would have no need of a "system" that "encourages reciprocation and sharing", because STO beings, by their very nature, practice reciprocation and sharing. No "encouragement" required.

 

[Green_Manalishi]

The "modern economy"? As opposed to which previous (i.e. pre-modern) economy?

Perhaps the pre-historian economy, as in those ancient goddess cultures. Never STO, but less STS.

 

[Mr. Premise]

I recently ran into Eisenstein's site, too. This demurrage currency concept looks really interesting. Basically it works the opposite way money does now. Instead of getting interest for having money, you pay a tax on it. This is supposed to promote productive activity and sharing the wealth.

More recently, the philosopher Charles Eisenstein has revived the idea, discussing it at some length in his online book The Ascent of Humanity, as well as in a number of articles. His most succinct treatment of the idea - much more detailed and eloquent than I can give - can be found here:
_http://realitysandwich.com/money_a_new_beginning_part_2

Whereas interest tends to concentrate wealth, demurrage promotes its distribution. In any economy with a specialization of labor beyond the family level, human beings need to perform exchanges in order to thrive. Both interest and demurrage represent a fee for the use of money, but the key difference is that in the former system, the fee accrues to those who already have money, while in the latter system it is levied upon them. Wealth comes with a high maintenance cost, thereby recreating the dynamics that governed hunter-gatherer attitudes toward accumulations of possessions.

Whereas security in an interest-based system comes from accumulating money, in a demurrage system it comes from having productive channels through which to direct it – that is, to become a nexus of the flow of wealth and not a point for its accumulation. In other words, it puts the focus on relationships, not on "having". The demurrage system accords with a different sense of self, affirmed not by enclosing more and more of the world within the confines of me and mine, but by developing and deepening relationships with others. It encourages reciprocation, sharing, and the rapid circulation of wealth.

Some of my own thoughts, on how to deploy a free currency in the modern environment, are online here:
_http://frecu.wetpaint.com/

Now, obviously a free currency would not in and of itself be sufficient to switch the economy - and society - to an STO orientation. Quite a bit more would have to change than that. It would, however, be a big step, removing one of the larger obstacles that stands in the way of STO behaviour on the part of ordinary people.

 

[agni]

I recently ran into Eisenstein's site, too. This demurrage currency concept looks really interesting. Basically it works the opposite way money does now. Instead of getting interest for having money, you pay a tax on it. This is supposed to promote productive activity and sharing the wealth.

But wealth could be accumulated through commodities other than money.

May be I am failing to see something, but how suggested system is any different from our current system ? You already pay tax on your money in form of inflation.. "promotion of productivity and sharing wealth" - working for the future of the county and it's people...

I don't know, but seems like another illusion under disguise of things being fair.

 

[psychegram]

The "modern economy"? As opposed to which previous (i.e. pre-modern) economy?

Perhaps the pre-historian economy, as in those ancient goddess cultures. Never STO, but less STS.

Precisely.

Gatherer-hunter 'economies' suggest themselves. According to the C's we've been STS for, what, 300,000 years? Before that we were STO, and presumably had some kind of economy ... one very different from what we have now, obviously, as in an STO context no one worries about providing for themselves; nevertheless, regardless of whether individuals are looking out for themselves or not, one way or another all must be provided for and it's that which I'm talking about when I say 'economy'.

I recently ran into Eisenstein's site, too. This demurrage currency concept looks really interesting. Basically it works the opposite way money does now. Instead of getting interest for having money, you pay a tax on it. This is supposed to promote productive activity and sharing the wealth.

But wealth could be accumulated through commodities other than money.

May be I am failing to see something, but how suggested system is any different from our current system ? You already pay tax on your money in form of inflation.. "promotion of productivity and sharing wealth" - working for the future of the county and it's people...

I don't know, but seems like another illusion under disguise of things being fair.

Wealth can certainly take many forms other than that of money. However, so long as it's in the form of commodities (the Sumerian priesthoods, cultural predecessors of modern bankers, did this with grain for instance); but, commodities decay too, and thus at some point must be used. Money just grows and grows, so long as it gathers enough interest.

Inflation and demurrage are superficially similar, however, there is a key difference: inflation is caused by usury (the money supply grows because money is being created at interest), whereas with demurrage, the currency doesn't so much lose value, as it simply disappears. In the former, $1 will grow to $1.01, thus depressing it's value by 1% (unless the real economy has also grown by 1%); in the latter, $1 decays to $0.99, thus raising the buying power in the real economy (unless, again, the real economy shrinks by 1%.) Admittedly, that's a toy problem and the real world is much more complex, but hopefully that explains the difference.

Wealth in terms of social connectivity is what a free currency system aims for, and if you read Eisenstein's work carefully you'll see that he talks about this. To re-quote from the first post:

Whereas security in an interest-based system comes from accumulating money, in a demurrage system it comes from having productive channels through which to direct it – that is, to become a nexus of the flow of wealth and not a point for its accumulation. In other words, it puts the focus on relationships, not on "having". The demurrage system accords with a different sense of self, affirmed not by enclosing more and more of the world within the confines of me and mine, but by developing and deepening relationships with others. It encourages reciprocation, sharing, and the rapid circulation of wealth.

 

[PepperFritz]

According to the C's we've been STS for, what, 300,000 years? Before that we were STO....

Yes, the C's indicate that humans were "aligned with 4th-density STO" for a period of time. But then we made the decision to "align with 4th-density STS" and we have been STS ever since. As STS third-density humans we are not capable of achieving what you call an "STO economy". Our STS nature would always interfere.

The evolution of our STS world has reached its apotheosis. It is a world in which those who practice the most STS-behaviour -- i.e. psychopathic behaviour -- are rewarded with the ultimate prizes of an STS society: power, status, wealth. That firmly established system cannot be "fixed" or "changed" now. There is too much at stake for those who control it. Do you honestly believe they will just "give it up" because a few people think a different system will "work better"?

We manifestly are capable of switching to an STO orientation: my understanding was that, ultimately, that's what we're trying to accomplish here, yes?

No. The C's are very clear on that point. We can NEVER be STO while we are third-density beings living on third-density earth. The most one can hope to become is an "STO candidate" who has the potential to become STO when the earth moves to 4th density. Any belief in oneself as being "STO", or of building an "STO society" is delusion. We are all STS beings by nature and we live in an STS world. It is not the kind of economic system that we follow that has created this world -- it is the STS beings within it.

The best that could be accomplished in these "end times" before the transition to 4th density is the creation of small communities of those striving for STO-candidacy, in which "alternative" economic approaches to daily life might be practiced to some degree. But even those would still have to live to some degree within the context of the world as it exists. As the C's have told us again and again, the best use of our time and energies is to prepare for what is to come, by attaining Knowledge -- not fantasizing about transforming our current world into an "STO Society".

Remember: It is not WHERE you are (and that includes what kind of economic system you are living in) -- but WHO you are and WHAT YOU ARE ABLE TO SEE that will make the difference. If you continue to delude yourself about what is and is not possible, you will only make yourself a sitting duck for those people who will come along and say, come, join our group, we are going to practice an "alternative economy" and create a heaven here on earth. And next thing you know you're trapped in some kind of STS-devised work-camp situation wondering how you got there....

Q: (L) Should we get rid of all credit cards?
A: Up to you.
Q: (L) Would it be more to our advantage than not to
disconnect ourselves from the credit system?
A: Isn't just credit also debit.
Q: (L) Is that an affirmative.
A: How are you going to do this?
Q: (L) Well, do you have any suggestions?
A: World will soon have nothing but credit and debit have you
not heard of this new visa debit cards this is the future of
money as controlled by the world banking system i.e. the
brotherhood i.e. Lizards i.e. antichrist.
Q: (L) If I don't have a credit card then I don't have to belong
to this system?
A: No. You will have no choices: belong or starve.
Q: (L) What happened to free will?
A: Brotherhood AKA Lizards AKA antichrist has interfered
with free will for 309000 years. They are getting desperate as
we near the change.
Q: (V) It has always been my nature to rebel against that
which I did not feel was good for me. Is rebellion against this
system possible?
A: If you are willing to leave the body.
Q: (L) Leave the body as in death, croak, kick the bucket?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) If we were to move...
A: Changes will follow turmoil be patient.
Q: (L) We would like to move into the country. Will it be
possible to get along without this credit/debit card leading that
kind of life?
A: No.
Q: (L) Are they going to have the kind of capability of
controlling everything and everybody no matter where they
are?
A: Yes.

 

[psychegram]

According to the C's we've been STS for, what, 300,000 years? Before that we were STO....

Yes, the C's indicate that humans were "aligned with 4th-density STO" for a period of time. But then we made the decision to "align with 4th-density STS" and we have been STS ever since. As STS third-density humans we are not capable of achieving what you call an "STO economy". Our STS nature would always interfere.

Of course. But, we can take actions that will, gradually, increase our STO frequency resonance vibration, and if we raise it high enough pass the exam, as it were. Or at least, that's my understanding. So, I thought that perhaps an initiative in this direction might be a productive form of Work.

At the same time, Eisenstein himself is quite clear that, absent a raft of other changes (which taken together seem to me to be a pretty accurate picture of what a 3rd density STO-aligned environment might be like, at least as clear as anyone might make out from our present perspective), no such demurrage/free currency system can ever work.

The evolution of our STS world has reached its apotheosis. It is a world in which those who practice the most STS-behaviour -- i.e. psychopathic behaviour -- are rewarded with the ultimate prizes of an STS society: power, status, wealth. That firmly established system cannot be "fixed" or "changed" now. There is too much at stake for those who control it. Do you honestly believe they will just "give it up" because a few people think a different system will "work better"?

To tell the truth, the same thought had crossed my mind: that if I (or anyone) were to initiate a system that undermined theirs and meet with any sort of initial success, the control system would be activated and I would be dealt with, one way or another.

No. The C's are very clear on that point. We can NEVER be STO while we are third-density beings living on third-density earth. The most one can hope to become is an "STO candidate" who has the potential to become STO when the earth moves to 4th density. Any belief in oneself as being "STO", or of building an "STO society" is delusion. We are all STS beings by nature and we live in an STS world. It is not the kind of economic system that we follow that has created this world -- it is the STS beings within it.

The best that could be accomplished in these "end times" before the transition to 4th density is the creation of small communities of those striving for STO-candidacy, in which "alternative" economic approaches to daily life might be practiced to some degree. But even those would still have to live to some degree within the context of the world as it exists. As the C's have told us again and again, the best use of our time and energies is to prepare for what is to come, by attaining Knowledge -- not fantasizing about transforming our current world into an "STO Society".

Remember: It is not WHERE you are (and that includes what kind of economic system you are living in) -- but WHO you are and WHAT YOU ARE ABLE TO SEE that will make the difference. If you continue to delude yourself about what is and is not possible, you will only make yourself a sitting duck for those people who will come along and say, come, join our group, we are going to practice an "alternative economy" and create a heaven here on earth. And next thing you know you're trapped in some kind of STS-devised work-camp situation wondering how you got there....

That's grim. Not inaccurate, however. For the near term, then, it's 'damned if you do and damned if you don't', ie one way or another living in an STS derived system is unavoidable ... and those who promise a way out are liable to land one in an even worse situation.

Sorry, it's just hard for me to accept (notice I didn't say 'I can't accept that'.) I've always preferred to try and do something, rather than just sit around complaining ... and yes, I know that's clearly not what you're proposing, but sometimes it feels that just sitting back, watching and reading and learning and not being able to change any of it ... it's hard on the soul.

Which is no excuse for losing one's objectivity, I know.

Q: (L) Should we get rid of all credit cards?
A: Up to you.
Q: (L) Would it be more to our advantage than not to
disconnect ourselves from the credit system?
A: Isn't just credit also debit.
Q: (L) Is that an affirmative.
A: How are you going to do this?
Q: (L) Well, do you have any suggestions?
A: World will soon have nothing but credit and debit have you
not heard of this new visa debit cards this is the future of
money as controlled by the world banking system i.e. the
brotherhood i.e. Lizards i.e. antichrist.
Q: (L) If I don't have a credit card then I don't have to belong
to this system?
A: No. You will have no choices: belong or starve.
Q: (L) What happened to free will?
A: Brotherhood AKA Lizards AKA antichrist has interfered
with free will for 309000 years. They are getting desperate as
we near the change.
Q: (V) It has always been my nature to rebel against that
which I did not feel was good for me. Is rebellion against this
system possible?
A: If you are willing to leave the body.
Q: (L) Leave the body as in death, croak, kick the bucket?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) If we were to move...
A: Changes will follow turmoil be patient.
Q: (L) We would like to move into the country. Will it be
possible to get along without this credit/debit card leading that
kind of life?
A: No.
Q: (L) Are they going to have the kind of capability of
controlling everything and everybody no matter where they
are?
A: Yes.

Thanks for reminding me of that passage.

 

[KJS]

I wanted to bump this very old thread with a video that was made as a ten-minute introduction to Eisenstein's Sacred Economy. I stumbled upon Eisenstein when I saw a video of him talking with Iain McGilchrist and also remembered some of his essays critical of the whole COVID-19 madness.

Watching the video, you can't help but be impressed that it's narrated by someone who has flashbacks of our 3D STO past. It's definitely on my list of books to read in the near future, especially now that it's available for free and translated into 12 languages.

Read Online - Sacred Economics | Charles Eisenstein