Arousing negative thoughts and emptiness.

[Gawan]

Hi,

something is bothering my mind, which follows a time of uneasiness and I'm also feeling ashamed when it is happening. But I try to use now this energy to explain it, instead of, as I have been doing so in my past, just wishing that it is going away. Which often followed then an emptiness, when I have done so.
I hope it's a step in the direction to look into my mirror, as mentioned by Barbara Hort: "Unholy Hungers".

It occurs mainly when "newbies" start to post (beside that I'm a "newbie" myself), asking questions, or simply introducing themselves, where negative thoughts arouse, kind of that they could take "my" place away and what does he/she want?
I'm wondering than all the time where it is coming from and am also lucky to have never responded in this negative mood, because it would have been internal consideration. Beside in this temper I'm not able to reword a sentence and to write a positive feedback. These are just simply words, but "loaded" with a certain energy.

But this negativity started mainly with this thread (with a side note: I mean with this example no harm): The Wave where as I watched the video felt very uneasy and embarrassed: "Why is she telling this?", "What does she know?"

The next day, I watched it a third time, other members praised it, and I wanted to know why they have been praising it and why felt I embarrassed about it…!
I got a sense that I'm feeling very uncomfortable when it is going about emotions, positive emotions like in this video, or as I remembered love-scenes in any movie producing discomfort in me (especially when another person is with me in the room). Well, even the simple word LOVE feels strange to me.
Often their is also an inability connected to say/write "thank you".

A couple of days ago I had my first sitting with a psychologist and he put it quite well, in the sense that I'm feeling not sure all the time doesn't matter what I'm doing: "How can you be sure, when you in your past didn't receive adoration (caress) from your parents and on the other hand they have everything (materially) done for you?"
Maybe there is a connection?


Anyway, as I watched the video a third time I enjoyed it, and it's great! Especially the direct look in the camera in the last seconds, which turns somehow the viewer in an active position!


Thanks for reading!

 

[Buddy]

I'm wondering than all the time where it is coming from and am also lucky to have never responded in this negative mood, because it would have been internal consideration.

Hi abcdefghiJoerg;

I wanted to congratulate you on your ability to separate your physical reaction from your emotional state.

I'm not qualified to advise you here, as I have yet to integrate the minimum requirements of the recommended reading list, but I have had some experiences in my past that lead me to ask something.

Have there been times where you had passionate desires to express love and appreciation only to be made to feel self-conscious and ashamed of your behavior? Or perhaps felt the shock of realizing that someone you loved didn't even like you?
Or maybe you had very strong desires to express yourself artistically but had little natural talent. Or maybe DID express yourself only to get negative feedback?

After awhile of this, one can start to disown parts of himself, yet go on living. Later, when experiencing art forms or expressions that provoke a reaction within himself, a person can come close to realizing what he has done to his own development and then feel all sorts of things: shame, jealousy, resentment, etc. This has happened to me.

I'm not saying this has anything to do with you. I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts in this direction.

 

[Gawan]

Hello Buddy,
many of your thoughts are sounding familiar to me:

Have there been times where you had passionate desires to express love and appreciation only to be made to feel self-conscious and ashamed of your behavior? Or perhaps felt the shock of realizing that someone you loved didn't even like you?

Yes, as far I figured it out, through "Trapped in the mirror", there is a rejection "program" running. That means, I often wanted to be close to someone, yearned for their love and the result has been: "We cannot be together", or when I at all got an answer from my seeking to be close to someone.

[…]We grow up to seek love from similar people.

The adult child of a narcissist does not know his unconscious love-seeking mission as he creates painful relationships. A healthy personality does not seek rejection.

Or maybe you had very strong desires to express yourself artistically but had little natural talent. Or maybe DID express yourself only to get negative feedback?

Maybe not only in the artistic way, but I like to fail or miserable pass examinations. I applied for some Academics of art, but couldn't sell myself worth enough in the interviews with the profs, which then ended also in rejection.

After awhile of this, one can start to disown parts of himself, yet go on living. Later, when experiencing art forms or expressions that provoke a reaction within himself, a person can come close to realizing what he has done to his own development and then feel all sorts of things: shame, jealousy, resentment, etc. This has happened to me.

Yes, these feelings do occur very often, when I look at art works.



Edit:

Hmmm, what comes to my mind is the impression that I'm running in circles, has the projection of emotions especially negative ones, also not something to do with the negative introject?

 

[T.C.]

Hi abcdefghiJoerg

You are not alone. I had negative reactions to Alexandra's work.

I believe my feelings indicate a fear of not being perfect. I am afraid to "expand" into the unknown, and prefer to "contract". I have works, songs/poems which I'd love to share here, but I'm afraid of being judged, criticised.

I instantly recognised what was happening inside me, and I was able to defeat my narcissistic reactions by thinking about what I liked about the video. First of all, I admire Alexandra for being brave enough to share her creation; I enjoyed her sentence structure, the way she spoke and her timing; it was visually moving and I was reminded of Lord of the Rings in the sense that Alexandra would make a good elvish godess.

Basically, I see her work as a victory for creative/feminine energy and thought centres of being. And I see my initial reactions as coming from a place inside me which is not the true me, it is my false personality and predators mind.

Hope that helps.

 

[Gawan]

Hope that helps.

Yes it does T.C.! Thanks. It's reminds me of the ongoing identification which is happening in me. With the question what is me and what is it?

I believe my feelings indicate a fear of not being perfect. I am afraid to "expand" into the unknown, and prefer to "contract". I have works, songs/poems which I'd love to share here, but I'm afraid of being judged, criticised.

But you haven't tried it yet? The worst thing that could happen imo, that nobody is responding and if even this is happening, does not tell anything about the art work.
Critic can be a burden, but when applied constructively it can be a chance to enhance the abilities. Maybe it's also like how to look on what is posted on the forum in written form, to get a feedback, viewed from another angle (another member).

Well, what helped me sometimes, is what you have written in another thread:

[…]

Someone else once said, "you can't steer the car if the wheels aren't turning".

And that age old question applies too: If not NOW, then WHEN?

;)

 

[PepperFritz]

I have works, songs/poems which I'd love to share here, but I'm afraid of being judged, criticised....

In order to get to the root of such fear, I think one has to closely examine one's motivation for "sharing" such work. If someone is uncertain/insecure about their talents, not clear about the artistic intention behind their work, then they are most likely looking for a "feeding" opportunity -- they want others to give them praise and validation, something they cannot give themselves. In other words, they are not really looking to "share", they are looking to "get". When someone "shares" from that place, others can sense it, and often it causes them to back away, in fear of hurting another's "feelings". And on some level they feel "manipulated" into participating in a feeding relationship, and resent it.

I think a true "artist" is someone who is compelled to create by virtue of their very nature, regardless of the whether their work will ever be experienced by anyone else, and regardless of anyone else's opinion of it. The motivation to "share" comes from a confident belief that what they have created is "art", that it has the ability to evoke a specific emotional response, and thus "change" the person experiencing it, if only in a small way. In that respect, the primary motivation of the artist is to "give", not to "get". Someone who is confident in their own artistic nature and intention will not be "devastated" if their work does not bring them "praise", or is criticized. Their primary concern is whether their creation "works", if it conveys what they intended it to convey, whether it achieves the effect they intended to achieve. If feedback (or lack of response) tells them they have "failed" in that regard, they go back to the creative crucible and try again. They continue to hone their craft and talent, in order to get better at what they do.

Artistic expression and development is not this forum's focus. There may or may not be individuals here "qualified" to evaluate someone's genuine talent/artistic ability in a given area. But on the whole, we're all just regular folk who can only express their own personal and individual response to something, and we all know how variable "personal taste" can be. If someone is genuinely looking for an "evaluation" of their abilities, they should enroll in a "workshop" situation that can provide that kind of feedback.

When Alexandra posted a link to her video, claiming Laura's "Wave" series as her inspiration, I was very sceptical. Nonetheless, I checked it out, out of curiosity more than anything. To my surprise, it represented Laura's ideas and concepts in an accurate manner (my first concern); but moreover, it produced an emotional response in me, so much so that I felt compelled to watch it several times. In that respect, as a work of art, it "worked" -- at least for me. I also felt that I had been "given" something, for which I felt appreciation. She did not manipulate a "positive" response from me, her work genuinely invoked it, and as a result I felt "free" to respond to her work.

These are just my own personal thoughts and perspective on this subject, for what they are worth....

 

[Turgon]

I think a number of people on this forum are dealing with the negative thoughts that arise from themselves, particularly if that person is someone that is not only sensitive, but fears rejection as well. Because I think the coupling of the two will lead someone down the path of jealousy. In doing so, you create these negative reactions or emotions to what other people are doing on this forum that maybe you wanted to say but didn't, whereas that other person had the courage to say it, regardless of what inhibitions were holding them back, whereas you were afraid to. And this is a big hurdle to overcome, one that probably lasts a lifetime, but gets easier and easier the more victories you have over these emotions.

I think because of the subject matter on this forum, a first response to these feelings is guilt or shame, because we are attempting to gain objectivity and awareness. So when a situation arises that we lose, even an inkling of that awareness or objectivity and REALISE it, there is this inclination to "contract". And this comes out in a number of ways, anger, jealousy, guilt, shame, rejection etc. depending on the personality and person. This often leads to subjective viewpoints, which evoke negative reactions. I recently experienced this, not with Alexandra's poem, but with my interactions with some 'friends' this weekend.

Active Side of Infinity - “The great issue with us males is our frailty. When our awareness begins to grow, it grows like a column, right on the midpoint of our luminous being, from the ground up. That column has to reach a considerable height before we can rely on it. At this time in your life, as a sorcerer, you easily lose your grip on your new awareness. When you do that, you forget everything you have done and seen on the warrior-travelers path because your consciousness shifts back to the awareness of your everyday life. I have explained to you that the task of every male sorcerer is to reclaim everything he has done and seen on the warrior-travelers path while he was on new levels of awareness. The problem of every male sorcerer is that he easily forgets because his awareness loses its new level and falls to the ground at the drop of a hat.”

 

[T.C.]

It's reminds me of the ongoing identification which is happening in me. With the question what is me and what is it?

I think we can only figure that out through self observation. Something that helped me was from the essay by Mme de Saltzmann:

In order to respect myself, I have to recognize a part in myself which is above the other parts, and my attitude toward this part should bear witness to the respect that I have for it. In this way I shall respect myself.

This can still be a little bit "tricky". Just because we see in ourselves something that we "like", doesn't mean it is real and there is a big chance that it is the sneaky predator - that we like it because it "serves us" in some way. But in that, there is a clue: the parts of me I respect the most are the parts that care about others. So I'm always observing myself hoping to catch a glimpse of those parts.

I think free will plays a part too. Maybe there is no definite "I" in you or me that we can call the true one; maybe it's "open" and we can choose which parts we want to nurture. As Laura talks about in her experience of "eclipsing of realities".

But you haven't tried it yet?

Well, the only reason I would want to share my songs/poems is they are about Awakening and there may be things others here can relate to. The problem is, I usually write them when I'm in a depression as a way to get things "off my chest", which means they are completely full of self pity. "Oh no, my life is so hard" ad nauseum. That is why I don't post them. They are WRITTEN with sincerity, but like PepperFritz said, to POST them would probably be feeding.

 

[Beau]

This can still be a little bit "tricky". Just because we see in ourselves something that we "like", doesn't mean it is real and there is a big chance that it is the sneaky predator - that we like it because it "serves us" in some way.

This is very true, yet the only way to verify whether or not it is the predator which likes "it", or the real you, is to share it with sincere folks who can provide objective feedback. It could very well be the predator which is stopping you from sharing your work as well...

 

[T.C.]

It could very well be the predator which is stopping you from sharing your work as well...

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=11662.0#new

 

[Smallwood]

This thread turned out to be very relevant to me, so I'm very grateful that you decided to start it abcdefghiJoerg. Many thoughts and feelings were covered in the first few posts that I had not only been unable to relate to others here but even explain them properly to myself. Thank you.

As it happens though I am currently in a rather negative emotional state myself, which I'll describe further in a thread I'll start myself at some point. Right now it would be quite helpless to say anything really meaningful about it. I'll just have to let it pass, before I'll tackle and try to analyze it better (I think I might be in the emptiness phase of it, really unable to concentrate on anything).

I'll just relate some top-of-the-head thoughts that came up while reading.

The next day, I watched it a third time, other members praised it, and I wanted to know why they have been praising it and why felt I embarrassed about it…!

Funny, I had suspicions about someone with a Drake in her nick and when I watched her video it I could only describe the presentation as "hypnotic". That only furthered my suspicions. My own emotional state no doubt colored my impression of it. I don't suppose she really belongs to any lizzie-gang.

I got a sense that I'm feeling very uncomfortable when it is going about emotions, positive emotions like in this video, or as I remembered love-scenes in any movie producing discomfort in me (especially when another person is with me in the room). Well, even the simple word LOVE feels strange to me.
Often their is also an inability connected to say/write "thank you".

This describes me perfectly. I can't bear watching any positively emotional scenes of a movie with anyone else in the same room without feeling embarassed. Same thing with weddings. They produce such a trip of emotional kind that I'll stay sulky for a week atleast. I've also noted the difficulty of saying just "thank you".

 

[thevenusian]

I think a true "artist" is someone who is compelled to create by virtue of their very nature, regardless of the whether their work will ever be experienced by anyone else, and regardless of anyone else's opinion of it. The motivation to "share" comes from a confident belief that what they have created is "art", that it has the ability to evoke a specific emotional response, and thus "change" the person experiencing it, if only in a small way. In that respect, the primary motivation of the artist is to "give", not to "get". Someone who is confident in their own artistic nature and intention will not be "devastated" if their work does not bring them "praise", or is criticized. Their primary concern is whether their creation "works", if it conveys what they intended it to convey, whether it achieves the effect they intended to achieve. If feedback (or lack of response) tells them they have "failed" in that regard, they go back to the creative crucible and try again. They continue to hone their craft and talent, in order to get better at what they do.

Thank you pepperfritz for that. As someone who has spent a lifetime around art, artists and the presentations of such, I think that is an excellent analysis. IMHO very large volume could be written on the variations and combinations of 'give' and 'get' with respect to those who identify themselves as artists. For all those whose programs of art-insecurity have been stimulated by Alexandra's provocative piece I can only say keep on trying. It ain't over til its over! (osit)

 

[Alexandra Drake]

I was going to quote Pepperfritz' fantastic explination of what art is...but i see that thevenusian has already done so :)

I am so suprised that my poem has stirred so much reaction. To be very honest, I was never going to paste it on the forum, it was my boyfriend who encouraged it and I must be honest - it has been a learning~filled experience! When I posted it - I honestly didnt expect any comments, as Pepperfritz has truthfully stated, this is not an art forum - so more than seeking feedback (i did hope to get some ~ honest feedback) I only wanted to share.

I cannot say I feel happy or sad about anything I have read in response to it - only curious and fascinated to see something/anything from another viewpoint :)

To know tho, that I have maybe encouraged even one person to go out and express themself is great. And to know that I have encouraged people to face or admit to a side of themselves that they arent all together happy with...that's even better. I can't remember where I just read it on this forum, but somewhere they were talking about how observing your insecurities / faults / programs and making note of them is your first step towards change (not an easy process :) but we have to start somewhere)

remember that art is opinion...it is from the artists view point...and not one piece of art is appreciated by everyone. There will always be someone who doesnt like it :) don't be afraid to share something just for fear of hearing from those people who won't like it. and be prepared to accept critisism as advice rather than something to bring you down.

 

[Pierre]

It occurs mainly when "newbies" start to post (beside that I'm a "newbie" myself), asking questions, or simply introducing themselves, where negative thoughts arouse, kind of that they could take "my" place away and what does he/she want?
I'm wondering than all the time where it is coming from and am also lucky to have never responded in this negative mood, because it would have been internal consideration. Beside in this temper I'm not able to reword a sentence and to write a positive feedback. These are just simply words, but "loaded" with a certain energy.

Hi abcdefghiJoerg,

Buddy has already proposed some possible causes for such negative reactions.

Another root for negative emotions triggered by newcomers could be linked to childhood.

I guess a child who perceived he was less loved by his parents when a newborn came could develop strong aversion towards any newcomer (new forumite, new workmate, new neighbour,...)

Actually, this wounded child (now an adult) might feel hate/jealousy/anger... towards new siblings (new forumites), but fundamentally those emotions are only the consequences of his fear to loose (one more time) the love of his parents (the forum community).

 

[Gawan]

[…]

Actually, this wounded child (now an adult) might feel hate/jealousy/anger... towards new siblings (new forumites), but fundamentally those emotions are only the consequences of his fear to loose (one more time) the love of his parents (the forum community).

With the fear to loose you have really a finger on.
That means also, in my case, to hold on to another person (manipulating to stay, manipulate to get something positive back), in the sense of getting "food" from this person, and to be sure that this source is not vanishing. Simply vampirism.

[…] vampiric people like to isolate themselves with their victims away from the intruding [and *new*] eyes of the victim's friends.

p.224 last paragraph
emphasis mine



As you mentioned, this seems then "just" a strategy learned from childhood, which still builds a feeding behaviour to me now as an adult.