Authenticity, compromise and self-importance

[Esote]

Most of us, one day or another, have to deal with these issues, specially about work matters, where one has to more or less find a compromise between one's integrity and ways to make a living, which are not really adequate with one's own standards, beliefs, opinions or knowledge...

Overcoming self-importance by doing things the ego doesn't like is part of the Work on oneself, but how may it apply to situations where, for instance, you may end somehow supporting psychopathic systems or persons ?

Fine, if there is a choice; you know where to go. But when there is no real choice, expect quit and get lost empty handed or go for it and fill your bank account, it's not that evident to know what to do.

I'm curious about your experiences, thoughts or links on this topic. It may help !..

 

[Menna]

When making money there is never no choice you can choose how to spend the money you make in a STO or STS way. Do you have a specific situation or example because there are many ways someone can turn working for a psychopath into a positive thing. In the end if the job pays well someone is going to take it. But Lets say you take a job like this it pays well and you take some of the money you make in a STS job and then give back in a STO way such as donating to SOTT or support other STO systems with some of your salary then I believe there is a positive to workIng in an STS system. Also can always apply for other jobs while you have a job. It's not a life sentence.

 

[Foxx]

Overcoming self-importance by doing things the ego doesn't like is part of the Work on oneself, but how may it apply to situations where, for instance, you may end somehow supporting psychopathic systems or persons ?

If you're using money, banks, credit cards, paying taxes, or basically anything that the modern world requires you to do to survive, you're at least giving some of your energy to STS forces (because they're all basically setup as enslavement tools--debt enslavement, funding wars, and giving the rich and powerful more money and power). These things are essentially unavoidable, as far as I understand, in the modern world (and have been for quite some time), so I don't think trying to completely eliminate them is practical or useful. They are simply some of the "necessary evils" of living in this world, so I think it's best to just accept that some things you're going to do--which you need to do to survive--are going to somehow support psychopathic systems (I think they've influenced every system globally by now) and persons (they've got their fingers in everything) and focus instead on healing yourself and doing the best you can otherwise.

There are, however, some "soul crushing" jobs out there and it may help you to change yours if it happens to be one, for your own health and sanity. This depends on the situation, of course.

Just some thoughts, FWIW.

 

[Esote]

... you can choose how to spend the money you make in a STO or STS way...

... just accept that some things you're going to do--which you need to do to survive--are going to somehow support psychopathic systems (I think they've influenced every system globally by now) and persons (they've got their fingers in everything) and focus instead on healing yourself and doing the best you can otherwise...

Thank you Menna and Foxx for your answers, which make real sense.

It surely depends on the situation...

 

[Shinzenbi]

When facing such situations, i always have 2 principles in mind (and sorry for the following english, or shall i say globish):

- The more you submit yourself, the more you get crushed (plus vous vous soumettez, plus vous vous faites écraser. Please someone help translate correctly).
We can see it, for example, with TV presenters who are compelled to support and scatter ideas that are again their own very beliefs in order to keep their job and wages. In France there was a famous presenter called Jean Luc Delarue who recently died of an overdose. He was producing many sh...ty programs and knew it.

- Really know who grants the benefit. There are mafia-like systems/people that will always request payback. There are also more honest ones.

The important matter seems to be to create positive outputs from "necessary evil" inputs. Hope this helps.

 

[Esote]

...The important matter seems to be to create positive outputs from "necessary evil" inputs...

To my concern, your English is quite enough understandable, Shinzenbi.
What you wrote rejoins what have been previously said and may help quite a few people...
Thanks for sharing

 

[Esote]

Now it's interesting to note, osit, that usually we humans are indulging into compromises out of fear.
Fear of the unknown, fear to loose etc.
This is quite "human", but it may close any opening to new opportunities.

Ordinary people, mild people that is, wont take much risk, instead they will mostly indulge in stagnating where they are.
Does the 4th way Work on oneself suit to this attitude ?

Is self-importance rather found where one wants to preserve him(her)self (and family + whoever) from risky issues, or where one is willing to go beyond, when the challenge is more freedom ?

I know, it mainly depends on the context and what you're doing with it. Still some good questions to ask, afaik

 

[Alada]

The discussion brought this snippet from Gurdjieff to mind, remembering that it’s the reason why we do a thing that helps determine whether it’s 'good' or 'evil' – there is good and there is evil, and the specific circumstances that define which is which. All of this has to be connected to Aim I think. So for example we might be working at a job that is seemingly ‘bad’, part of the control system or whatever, but this job is helping us to pay the bills and so pursue a greater Aim.

"The idea of morality is connected with the idea of good and evil conduct. But the idea of good and evil is always different for different people, always subjective in man number one, number two, and number three, and is connected only with a given moment or a given situation. A subjective man can have no general concept of good and evil. For a subjective man evil is everything that is opposed to his desires or interests or to his conception of good.

"One may say that evil does not exist for subjective man at all, that there exist only different conceptions of good. Nobody ever does anything deliberately in the interests of evil, for the sake of evil. Everybody acts in the interests of good, as he understands it. But everybody understands it in a different way. Consequently men drown, slay, and kill one another in the interests of good. The reason is again just the same, men's ignorance and the deep sleep in which they live.

"This is so obvious that it even seems strange that people have never thought of it before. However, the fact remains that they fail to understand this and everyone considers his good as the only good and all the rest as evil. It is naive and useless to hope that men will ever understand this and that they will evolve a general and identical idea of good."

"But do not good and evil exist in themselves apart from man?" asked someone present.

"They do," said G., "only this is very far away from us and it is not worth your while even to try to understand this at present. Simply remember one thing. The only possible permanent idea of good and evil for man is connected with the idea of evolution; not with mechanical evolution, of course, but with the idea of man's development through conscious efforts, the change of his being, the creation of unity in him, and the formation of a permanent I.

"A permanent idea of good and evil can be formed in man only in connection with a permanent aim and a permanent understanding. If a man understands that he is asleep and if he wishes to awake, then everything that helps him to awake will be good and everything that hinders him, everything that prolongs his sleep, will be evil. Exactly in the same way will he understand what is good and evil for other people. What helps them to awake is good, what hinders them is evil. But this is so only for those who want to awake, that is, for those who understand that they are asleep. Those who do not understand that they are asleep and those who can have no wish to awake, cannot have understanding of good and evil. And as the overwhelming majority of people do not realize and will never realize that they are asleep, neither good nor evil can actually exist for them.

"This contradicts generally accepted ideas. People are accustomed to think that good and evil must be the same for everyone, and above all that good and evil exist for everyone. In reality, however, good and evil exist only for a few, for those who have an aim and who pursue that aim. Then what hinders the pursuit of that aim is evil and what helps is good.

"But of course most sleeping people will say that they have an aim and that they are going somewhere. The realization of the fact that he has no aim and that he is not going anywhere is the first sign of the approaching awakening of a man or of awakening becoming really possible for him. Awakening begins when a man realizes that he is going nowhere and does not know where to go.

 

[Esote]

... it’s the reason why we do a thing that helps determine whether it’s 'good' or 'evil' – there is good and there is evil, and the specific circumstances that define which is which. All of this has to be connected to Aim ...

Thank you Alada for this.
From http://www.cassiopedia.org/glossary/Aim: In Gurdjieff's words, only mastery over the self is a reasonable goal, since any other goals may only be reached through this first one.
"Try to accomplish very small things first. If at first you aim at big things you will never be anything. And your manifesta-tions will act like cacophonous melodies and cause people to hate you... Wish is the most powerful thing in the world. With conscious wish everything comes." (From Gurdjieff's Views from the Real World, Pages 90-93)
Conscious wish, that is, not wishful thinking.
Then it all depends on which polarity (STS or STO) one decides to be aligned with...

 

[anart]

... it’s the reason why we do a thing that helps determine whether it’s 'good' or 'evil' – there is good and there is evil, and the specific circumstances that define which is which. All of this has to be connected to Aim ...

Thank you Alada for this.
From http://www.cassiopedia.org/glossary/Aim: In Gurdjieff's words, only mastery over the self is a reasonable goal, since any other goals may only be reached through this first one.
"Try to accomplish very small things first. If at first you aim at big things you will never be anything. And your manifesta-tions will act like cacophonous melodies and cause people to hate you... Wish is the most powerful thing in the world. With conscious wish everything comes." (From Gurdjieff's Views from the Real World, Pages 90-93)
Conscious wish, that is, not wishful thinking.
Then it all depends on which polarity (STS or STO) one decides to be aligned with...

Just a note that Gurdjieff considered that the vast majority of people are not capable of making a conscious wish. For him, from what I understand, a conscious wish is equated with a conscious prayer - it is direct communication with the Universe (or the Higher Force or the Creator). So, a conscious wish is no small thing. However, if one starts with small things as written above, then one day one may be capable of wishing in the sense Gurdjieff uses the word.

 

[Esote]

Just a note that Gurdjieff considered that the vast majority of people are not capable of making a conscious wish. For him, from what I understand, a conscious wish is equated with a conscious prayer - it is direct communication with the Universe (or the Higher Force or the Creator). So, a conscious wish is no small thing. However, if one starts with small things as written above, then one day one may be capable of wishing in the sense Gurdjieff uses the word.

Good note to ponder with, thank you anart.
Mastery over the self in very small things first, in each moment and in every circumstance.
So simple a challenge, yet such a difficult task !
The "end result" is eventually worth it: to be able to communicate directly with the Universe...

 

[Mikey]

Fine, if there is a choice; you know where to go. But when there is no real choice, expect quit and get lost empty handed or go for it and fill your bank account, it's not that evident to know what to do.

There is always a choice. But making it real depends on a number of things. The person must be capable of thinking it, wanting it enough, willing to pay the price for it, and capable of carrying the plan out. And sometimes, an exit to a "no choice" situation only reveals itself after a decision was already made and energy put into it, in good faith, OSIT.

 

[Esote]

There is always a choice. But making it real depends on a number of things. The person must be capable of thinking it, wanting it enough, willing to pay the price for it, and capable of carrying the plan out. And sometimes, an exit to a "no choice" situation only reveals itself after a decision was already made and energy put into it, in good faith, OSIT.

I agree, Data. Once we act upon a conscious choice according to reality, some kind of order is likely to follow, as an unexpected opportunity which manifests itself.

 

[TheLostBoy]

Quote from: eoste on October 25, 2012, 04:42:38 PM

Fine, if there is a choice; you know where to go. But when there is no real choice, [except] 'quit and get lost' empty handed or 'go for it' and fill your bank account, it's not that evident to know what to do.



[Data]
There is always a choice. But making it real depends on a number of things. The person must be capable of thinking it, wanting it enough, willing to pay the price for it, and capable of carrying the plan out. And sometimes, an exit to a "no choice" situation only reveals itself after a decision was already made and energy put into it, in good faith, OSIT.

-All emphasis mine-LostBoy

I agree. I think the variance in intensity/feelings between knowing that one is doing what they understand and believe as the 'correct/right thing' and thoughts of survival in the material and 'modern world considerations' is one of if not the biggest points of struggle for many of us, myself included.

And sometimes, an exit to a "no choice" situation only reveals itself after a decision was already made and energy put into it, in good faith, OSIT.

I think that this represents the building of 'faith' in us. I believe that having the courage to act in what we know and understand to be the correct path is the 'do' or 'action' step of faith.
First we 'think', have a 'thought' that maybe we aren't supporting what we believe to be 'right' or 'just' in the world, what we do not want to support. Faith in our gut or instincts that something may be 'a little off'.
Then we speak and bring to life in 'word' what we were thinking (including on a forum online!-networking!). Faith in our 'subjectively objective' understanding/thoughts of the situation. (Here we build 'confidence'. (<an after-thought 'edit'. thoughts?)
Then finally we come to the hardest part - 'deed' or 'action'. Faith that the Universe will support us even when we cannot foresee a path or options ourselves. Faith in having 'correctly' aligned ourselves with a greater good beyond our current complete comprehension.

Another consideration may be that when we acted in the above way, in all the ways we understood at that time to be objectively correct, we may in fact have not considered something or even simply given an already considered possibility an inaccurate portrait of importance or priority. Who among us has not looked back in '20/20 hindsight' to see that when we believed so strongly that we were 'right', we had not given something due attention and found ourselves to be well-intentionally misguided?


Just some thoughts. A little tired and new here

 

[Esote]

...Who among us has not looked back in '20/20 hindsight' to see that when we believed so strongly that we were 'right', we had not given something due attention and found ourselves to be well-intentionally misguided?


Just some thoughts. A little tired and new here

Believing that we were right, but eventually well-intentionally misguided...
It seems to me this is usually what happens to the ego ruling automaton, that we are in an ordinary state of consciousness.

There is always something new to learn at each moment, depending mostly on where we draw our intention and attention