Avengers - ultron

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Liv:I'm really excited about the new avengers movie but i'm trying to piece together what it means. Its like the world around us is moving into virtual reality giving AI a real chance to develop consciousness, because we are putting so much of ourselves into it. its so weird because i'm confused on if we are ultron or if we are creating ultron now. It was also interesting in the preview he states "i am free, there are no strings on me". hmmm...
it's also interesting if you have followed the comic books that ultron reinvents himself several times almost becoming more human like.. hmm ..but in the movie lucy the human becomes more robotic. I wonder how does collective consciousness play a role in all of this? it seems the higher we go in densities the more youe become a collective, but the lower you go the more seperate you become. are the avengers really the good guys or bad guys?
 
Liv:I'm really excited about the new avengers movie but i'm trying to piece together what it means. Its like the world around us is moving into virtual reality giving AI a real chance to develop consciousness, because we are putting so much of ourselves into it. its so weird because i'm confused on if we are ultron or if we are creating ultron now. It was also interesting in the preview he states "i am free, there are no strings on me". hmmm...

Does it have to 'mean' anything?

Art can reflect aspects of reality, but sometimes that isn't the case.

The character of Ultron, according to the writer Joss Whedan, was to be an immature psychopath. A being with an over simple view of reality. Ultron, as a written character, has the understanding of a toddler. His world view is black and white with no acceptance or understanding of what reality is like. To make him more than the writer intends is adding stress to yourself that isn't there.

it's also interesting if you have followed the comic books that ultron reinvents himself several times almost becoming more human like.. hmm ..but in the movie lucy the human becomes more robotic. I wonder how does collective consciousness play a role in all of this? it seems the higher we go in densities the more youe become a collective, but the lower you go the more seperate you become. are the avengers really the good guys or bad guys?

Art can imitate life, but life is the more immediate venue. Art is never divorced from the artist.

It's good that you are starting to see patterns, to ask questions. I've followed Joss Whedan's career a long time. I admire him as a writer who's done a lot to master his craft.

Enjoy the fruits of his labors, Liv. For the answers to the tough questions, its better to start the recommended reading. It may appear to be hard, the effort is worth it.

Meantime, watch Avengers, Age of Ultron. Enjoy it. I know I will. ;D
 
even if we read materials ..its still good to get another perspective on things ,which is why i posted the question on the forum. i have read a lot of material from laura , but quite honestly i dont have the time to read every single thing that she has out in a manner of a day or two.. i recently discovered this group so i am playing catch up to you all.. u guys can be pretty harsh on newbies i see lol but all is well ...

far as it meaning anything lol (im sorry im lol'in but i just explained something similar to transient9 because that seems to be the common response when us newbies share our thoughts)

yes ,everything has a meaning in the world we live in.. if u choose for it to have meaning.. "i" believe it has meaning behind it ,because it sparked thoughts in my mind about other similar ideas ,where i made a connection, ie u stating im seeing the patterns.. which in turn gave me a better understanding on some things while creating obscurity in other ideas areas..

to not question things keeps us in the dark and takes away our creative abilities.. through questions we find meaning in the things that inspire us...

and i do appreciate your perspective on the author... i gained another way to perceive the movie giving me the ability and knowledge needed to share later if someone ask me this same question later ... ill be armed in a way to give them various perceptions for them to understand my perception as u did with me :) :) thank you for sharing
 
Saw this the other day! It was a solid movie! :D

Slightly concerned though at Hollywood's decade long obsession with superheroes... one only wonders what it's all about.

- Innate desire of people to have super powers, to be special?
- Priming for insertion of new humanoids?

This new movie introduced the character vision who I have to say totally caught my eye. Supremely sublime.

Going through google, there is a whole bunch of articles written about why there is such a huge obsession with superheroes... they are pretty much hollywood's biggest box office hits nowadays.

Most articles sort of say they are popular because they provide 'us' with hope, some form of escapism, others say they are like a modern day manifestation of ancient Greek's obsessions with their pantheon of gods and that there are important lessons to be learnt from the storylines. One thing about the whole comparing a superhero to a greek god or any other mythological god that doesn't really sit well with me is because they fail to acknowledge the below

- A superhero is a superhero through contrasting them against a villain. It's not really supernatural powers that make him/her a superhero, it's the conflict against the villain. In a world without villains there would be no superheroes. In a way contrast america's obsession with 'heroism' and their constant need for violence and conflict. Furthermore, the way most superheroes are designed nowadays, they can't really lose. They may suffer, go through turmoil, be tormented, but at the end of the day, they always win. Contrast with america's almost illogical belief that no matter what, they will always get out on top. The hero knows best, the hero is above the rest, the hero is burdened but will prevail.

Avengers:- When you watch this, notice the callous way in which civilians are caught up in conflict. Every now and again, one of the heroes will make a token gesture of rescuing one from peril, but if this were real life, millions would be dying. Contrast against america's collateral damage all over the planet.

Superheroes also feed egoism in my opinion. A superhero obsessed culture is an egotistical and individualistic one from what I've seen.

Alan Moore on modern culture's obsession with superheroes

"To my mind, this embracing of what were unambiguously children's characters at their mid-20th century inception seems to indicate a retreat from the admittedly overwhelming complexities of modern existence," he wrote to Ó Méalóid. "It looks to me very much like a significant section of the public, having given up on attempting to understand the reality they are actually living in, have instead reasoned that they might at least be able to comprehend the sprawling, meaningless, but at-least-still-finite 'universes' presented by DC or Marvel Comics. I would also observe that it is, potentially, culturally catastrophic to have the ephemera of a previous century squatting possessively on the cultural stage and refusing to allow this surely unprecedented era to develop a culture of its own, relevant and sufficient to its times."
 
So essentially, it comes to disassociation and the dumbing down of the herd to child like mindlessness for most, or a simple need for 'hope' in a seemingly hopeless world collapsing around them.

One reason for an artist not to say exactly what their intention or meaning for any specific thing may be is because it means different things to different people, as, knowingly or not, they are accessing archetypes of infinite depth and to put a label on it is rather limiting artisticly and financially, as the public may not show the same enthusiasm for the product if defined in a manner not congruent to their own. It makes better business sense to keep such limiting factors of definition to a minimum, as every artist needs to survive to do their thing... ie, make money. ;) Some of them will mention this, both the money and/or the archetypal aspect, and some of them have learned to shut up if they know what's good for them. Doesn't that sound familiar? It's hard to say how many of them really know what they are tapping into, but then when dealing with archetypes, can we really say any different? All we see is the outer form of their expression. They may give interviews expressing their intent without realizing its true depth.... exoteric circle vs meso vs esoteric circles of understanding. Of course, a lot of it is just copying or imitating the work of others for better or for worse, if it has been proven successful or if it's become the accepted norms of a genre, which stand as is, until another artist breaks the mode... same in any field. If you look over the career of an artist, their journey can usually be seen, same as for anyone. How deep can they go? How much can they access? One question in many of these big budget films is how much do they know, if they really know what they are dealing with, and how much can they express in their work? When do the controls enter the picture as a limiting device? And in Hollywood, the moneymen make that determination, leading us back to the banks et al... puppetmasters, sheep herders etc. The whole superhero phenomenon in recent decades seem to mirror society, it's popularity increases as society decays, as the song goes: "We need a hero..." But that was a couple of decades ago, nowadays the song goes: "We could be heroes...." indicating that we are not. Back to disassociation. The chart pattern showing increased interest in superhero storylines, along with doomsday ones, have gone parabolic, especially as the market went global in film distribution again, not seen since the silent era. As they become more popular, society decays in the same inverse curve or wave as the chart showing our mostly Western stock/bond markets going parabolic while simultaneously, the economy goes back in recession. You have to be disassociated to deal with that, and the utilization of superheroes seems like that story of the black magician hypnotizing his sheep to think they are heroes, when they are anything but.

If the character is an immature psychopath, perhaps that in itself is rather telling of this process of decay, as even the psychos need time and space to 'mature' into their adult predator form... and time is running out for everyone, even them, and so many projects these days are promoting the as the new 'hero' of our culture, and isn't that rather telling of the state of our societal decay? The warning signs have been in Hollywood films for quite some time as the disaster movies started around the same time as the early predictions on the next ice age began and Superman came back into American consciousness to help us believe highly of ourselves, to mask our real reflections in the mirror, and all these masks of being special fits right in with the agenda to harvest the herd. That said, the name of this project itself, "Avengers" is rather telling isn't it? Who is being 'avenged'? Isn't it usually the inverse of truth being portrayed in these films? Captain America, and it sells overseas! :shock: OMG! All of it reminds me of the free will aspect of being warned, and our ignoring these signs or warnings are then our own choice... as meaningless as they usually are when most are asleep, but the rules of engagement are being fulfilled, and again this pattern is reflected on Wall Street when the big boys send out their memos, forecast, etc ahead of time, to keep the herd following their lead... and just now they are forecasting a downdraft for the overpriced market... even the infamous Jamie Dimon!!! So, we can count the days... and perhaps the same is true in Hollywood, which is another instrument of the same agenda of getting the herd to willingly follow their lead. These films are warning us in their own way of impending doom... of a world in need of a superhero to save it, for without it/them, nothing 'good' is possible.... follow, follow and never try to lead.... follow the pied piper, the lying psycho or superhero working on behalf of the PTB, for if they didn't, things would change, right? Or, are these superheroes, superdumb?
 
wow! great narration gdpetti! definitely eye opening the way you explained that!
 
Ultron definitely came across as the STS wild child running amuck (only destruction of all would bring peace, after which only he would remain); The Vision seemed his match as a more STO type of character (in support of Life as he declared he was).

In that last exchange between The Vision & Ultron in the movie, did anyone catch the quote about chaos/order? IIRC, The Vision started off with something like: "Humans think that Chaos and Order are opposites..." but I couldn't quite hear completely the next little bit. Something about humans trying to control it (order/chaos)? Essentially, The Vision was casually mentioning to Ultron that humans in their ignorance didn't 'get' the true nature of the Universe.

This bit came shortly before the last Ultron sneered at The Vision that he was naive - but I haven't found the quote online as I swear I heard it tonight when I saw it (despite several sites already having movie quotes up)... :huh:
 
luke wilson said:
Slightly concerned though at Hollywood's decade long obsession with superheroes... one only wonders what it's all about.

- Innate desire of people to have super powers, to be special?
- Priming for insertion of new humanoids?

Sometimes I think heroes simply make the best metaphor when trying to (whether consciously or not) raise the general public's awareness...a teeny tiny bit. I honestly don't think anything more subtle will make any impression on the general public at this point. Too little, too late? Not necessarily.

The main thing from Joss's writing that leapt out to me tonight when I saw it: "Like the old man said...together." That seemed to be one major theme: Together

Look at what the heroes did together
They couldn't have done it if they hadn't worked together
Didn't they look magnificent, working together
Wanda and Pietro put aside their guilt over their mistake and worked together with the Avengers
There was (as always) conflict and differences of opinion, but when it really counted, they subdued their egos and all worked together

I also adored that last conversation between The Vision & Ultron. To me it symbolized STO curbing STS excess, pushing it back. Acknowledging what drives the STS engine, not without some compassion, as well as noting the effects of human ignorance of the Big Picture and the dual forces at play in humanity (having created its would-be nemesis and yet quickly creating another who would help save it).

As Stan said, Excelsior! ;D
 
luke wilson said:
Saw this the other day! It was a solid movie! :D

Slightly concerned though at Hollywood's decade long obsession with superheroes... one only wonders what it's all about.

- Innate desire of people to have super powers, to be special?
- Priming for insertion of new humanoids?

I see the success of the superhero movies in a more positive light. After all, they are only being made in such numbers because people want to see them. In this case, I think that superheroes resonate with people because they sense that humans can be so much more. It doesn't necessarily mean that anything positive will come out of the popularity of the superhero movies, though maybe it will inspire some people.
 
I saw this movie on Monday. I think about it different as it has been exposed (WARNING: my comment have spoilers)

I see similarities between the argument and what the USA-OtAN is doing in Ukraine.

1. They go to an East European city in which the evil villain is creating something that will destroy the world. (the former Ukraine government?) the Avengers kill a lot of military guys which are presented as the enemy so they don't feel any emotion on their death (pro-Russian military or civilian people?)
2. This villain has two teenagers who work for him because they have seen their parent's death when they were children and think the Avengers are the enemy and are presented as full of vengance and unable to think rationally (Ukraine citizens who want to be part of Russia?)
3. One of the teenagers can get into the minds of the avengers and manipulate them (Russian news that are presented in the media as anti-western "propaganda?)
4. This first villain and these teenagers help create a monster that can make the world end (anti OTAN alliance aka russia-China?)
5. The two teenagers realize that the avengers are good people that have come to help, and decide to help them (Ukraine neo-nazis?)
6. In the final fight between the Avengers and Ultron they destroy the east-european city but because this is the only way they can save the world (destruction of Ukraine?)
7. In this destruction they save the people of the city, putting themselves in great danger (this may represent Ukranians who think usa-nato is going to bring them democracy and freedom?)

I don't know!tell me what you think because I am starting feeling as I am this suspicious observers web that sees Illuminatis everywhere ;)
 
wow u guys are awesome at decoding movies from your own perception!! great! i agree with this leonarda
 
Heh idk guys, why assign meaning to something that's just meant to be a bit of fun. Don't get me wrong, there's value in reading signs from the universe that prop up from time to time - but making that into a frequent exercise about everything is the obsessive habit of the schizophrenic.

Take a breath and repeat this slowly: sometimes a movie is just a movie. :cool: :cool2:

BTW James Spader as Ultron was AMAZING.
 
Personally, I think Hollywood's obsession with super hero movies is entirely due to the advanced graphics that make it possible to reproduce the comic books' original intentions. Many attempts have been made over the years, since the 1970s, to make super hero movies and TV shows. The desire was always there, as was the popularity of the genre, but now they can actually do it without making things that look like the original Spiderman series, or Wonder Woman.

Simple supply and demand - it's a huge market that they were never able to really tap into until the last decade, or so. Now they're raking it in.
 
I think a lot of superhero and supervillain characters are also caricatures in their own right so if you're looking for deeper meaning into The Avengers, you'll undoubtedly find something. I do enjoy these movies though because you do see some of the characters embody certain values, like Captain America, who takes on the mantle of being the honorable soldier, or Tony Stark as an egotistical narcissist who has to learn to get over himself. With soap operas and reality TV shows being so ponerized and espousing manipulation, greed and narcissism as the main values and traits of their characters, it's great to see (some) characters who try and work towards higher ideals in The Avengers and some of the other Marvel movies. Will most people see it simply to dissociate and spend a few hours pretending they're Iron Man or the Hulk? Most likely. But I've always enjoyed seeing characters who can show what you can strive towards. It's a subjective impression on my part, but I've been a comic book nerd for a long time so I'm probably biased. ;)
 
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