Band

[T.C.]

Hi everyone.

I've been in a band with two other guys for a couple of years now. I've made the decision to leave and want to network my reasons to see if I'm seeing clearly that it's the right thing to do.

In the most simple sense, I don't know if it's what I want to do any more. I do enjoy playing in a band, LOVE playing/creating music in general, and get on really well with the guys, but I think a big reason for staying in the band is my rescue program which is based on my ego.

I believe they need me. I have a style which is more creative and intricate than is necessary for my instrument (the bass), and a good ear. If I hear something, I can play it straight off. I think, (and believe they think too) that they won't be able to replace me. In the past, the guitarist has often said he wouldn't want to play with anyone else (to which I have automatically replied that the feeling is mutual) and helped me out money wise when buying my first big amplifier.

There also may be an underlying feeling from the other guys (who are quite a bit older than me; 10 and 20 years) that they believe they may be holding me back.

Now, I don't know if it's just a case that I'm not considering them enough and I'm just being selfish; the band is supposed to be a democracy, but I do have a problem with giving up creative control, there are things about the band and what the other guys want to do that I don't like or that I now realise I'm simply not interested in, and am frustrated by the fact that one of the other guys appears to have reached a point in his ability that he's happy with, but which I "don't think is good enough" and have to "make nice" so as not to rock the boat or offend him (basically not judge him and say he needs to practice "this" or "that" more; he's not working on himself and so isn't asking for a mirror).

Another problem: this guy, was (and probably still is :/) for a few years what I would call my best friend; but after reading on narcissism, I see that we get on so well because we're both narcissists and help aggrandize each other and enforce each others belief that we're "special" or "better than everyone else". Yuck. (this is something I've tried to change and consequently, we don't see each other socially as much and he has other things going on anyway)

I just want to do what's best for each of us in the band. I think that by seeing things in this way, to carry on in the situation wouldn't be fair to the other guys, would be lying to them and myself, holding them back from finding someone to play with them who IS on the same level, wanting the same things - less critical of their life. Or possibly even helping perpetuate this band situation that they may not know is something they don't want to be doing, either, and that they could get on with other things in their lives.

I got into the band before finding the Work and so, on one level, I don't feel I made a conscious choice that it was something I wanted in my life. Now I'm assessing my life in a critical way and want to make conscious changes that will help preserve my free will and the free will of others because I don't want to take part in the STS hierarchy any more.

But I have I's that say I could be making a mistake; that I'm helping them, that we have a good time and I shouldn't take it so seriously, that we work well together, our songs are good, it's a good hobby, it may affect our "friendship", it's a good strategic enclosure because I'm getting out and doing things with other people, it's an opportunity to practice external considering, I can't just cut everyone out of my life and become a hermit.

Is that just all LIES? Is it more a case of giving till it hurts, turning the other cheek, forgive and forget, make allowances for how others' problems affect my life and how my problems affect theirs, and wishful thinking?

If anyone can point out any flaws in my reasoning, I'd appreciate it a lot.

Thanks for reading.

 

[PepperFritz]

For what it is worth, TC, it seems to me that you have thought the matter through very clearly. I can see no "flaw" in your reasoning.

You say you want to do "what's best for each of us in the band". In the end, I think that when we do what is "best" for us -- truly "best", in a spiritual and personal growth sense -- we are automatically doing what is "best" for everyone else involved. STO is not about sacrificing and suppressing one's own needs in order to keep everyone else "happy". It is about serving oneself through serving others -- because, ultimately, what is good for one is good for all. If you no longer feel challenged and creatively stimulated in the group, chances are others in the group feel the same way -- whether they are consciously aware of it or not. By being honest with yourself and with them, and doing what is best for your own personal growth, you open a door of opportunity for them. Perhaps other members will also move on to greater challenges; perhaps they will stay together and face the need to "up their game" since they can no longer lean on your abilities and just "coast"; perhaps they will attract a new member who will be a better "fit" to their aims and purposes.

I mean, we're not talking about the break-up of a marriage here where there is the welfare of children to consider. It's a group of adults who came together for creative and social purposes, and for whom at least one member the situation is no longer "working". Thank the universe for the gift that it was, and move on. The other members will either take and use the growth opportunity you are giving them, or they will not. It is not your responsibility, it is theirs. It is never in others' best interests to treat them like helpless children who cannot survive without you -- and, as you are aware, it is usually just our ego and self-importance that makes us think in those terms.

Just my take on what you have written, FWIW....

 

[T.C.]

I mean, we're not talking about the break-up of a marriage here where there is the welfare of children to consider.

That's VERY helpful PepperFritz, thank you.

 

[genero81]

I mean, we're not talking about the break-up of a marriage here where there is the welfare of children to consider. It's a group of adults who came together for creative and social purposes, and for whom at least one member the situation is no longer "working". Thank the universe for the gift that it was, and move on. The other members will either take and use the growth opportunity you are giving them, or they will not. It is not your responsibility, it is theirs. It is never in others' best interests to treat them like helpless children who cannot survive without you -- and, as you are aware, it is usually just our ego and self-importance that makes us think in those terms.

Well, having been in a band myself, I can say it is a little like a marriage. Actually, I've been in several many bands. Once I left a band to focus on my search for the "truth." My ideas about that were quite different at the time. :)

So T. C., you feel needed and special. Ok, so did I. But I enjoyed playing with my last band and writing original material. We were creating something unique. I miss that. I miss playing in the band in high school and college.

But, you don't really feel good about how things are going. So, come up with an excuse that doesn't break their enthusiasm. I know bass players are harder to find, but it doesn't sound like they need a great musician.

Breaking the news won't be easy, but you can move on and find musicians who are on your level. That's an amazing experience! I've jumped up on stage at a club when the drummer was off somewhere, and we played like we had been together for years.

I've also played in bands where I didn't really want to go to practice because it was boring. Not good. And I quit playing after that for a long time. It wasn't worth it.

I didn't just look for a better situation because I didn't want to hurt their feelings, and I felt honored that they wanted me as their drummer. Stupid programs. I might have enjoyed my musical career and been more successful had I just found the right people to play with.

So, I know what you are going through.

I know what I would do, if I were you.

 

[webglider]

But I have I's that say I could be making a mistake; that I'm helping them, that we have a good time and I shouldn't take it so seriously, that we work well together, our songs are good, it's a good hobby, it may affect our "friendship", it's a good strategic enclosure because I'm getting out and doing things with other people, it's an opportunity to practice external considering, I can't just cut everyone out of my life and become a hermit.

I've been reading Mouravieff's Gnosis pretty intensively over the last few weeks with the aim of identifying Laws and seeing how they apply in Life.

From what you describe, it seems to me that your situation could best be addressed by applying the Law of Seven to your concerns.

Because of the Law of Seven. annihilation does not occur in the first cycle, nor in the following cycles until the force of the initial impulse is exhausted. In the meantime, the law makes it possible to revive any movement which is losing its energy and its speed, by imparting supplementary impulses to it at opportune momeents and points.

Mouravieff continues by providing a definition of The Law Of Sevenwhich he prefaces by linking it to Time, (which I don't fully understand, but may be more accessible to you.)

These considerations on the curvature of Time and all movement - including any physical, mental, or moral action whatever its nature permit us to give a definition to the Law of Seven.
Definition:Any movement that begins in a given direction undergoes a deviation at a certain moment.
Conversely: For a movement going towards a definte goal to continue without deviation in the same direction, it is necessary to impart to it adequate additional impulses at specific moments and points.
Corrolary: If left to itself, by the third deviation a movement which follows a definite direction is found to be boing in the DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSITE DIRECTION

It seems to me that you actually may have a good thing going with your band and that the dissonance you feel may be caused by the downward spiral that can destroy all endeavors if a correction is not made at the approriate interval.

Have you considered talking to the other members of the band about the reasons why you want to leave? Perhaps such a conversation may function as a shock that can unify everyone in a common goal to keep the group together.

What I'm picking up is either or thinking. You have to leave because you are no longer happy with the situation, but neither do you seem to relish the prospect of becoming a hermit. I'm proposing that you try to change your situation by keeping the good - the friendship, history, and enjoyment - by attempting to set new standards.

If no one else is interested, or if you're really not interested then perhaps it's time to leave.

Edit: by Johnno. Sorted out those darn quote marks and deleted the double post. ;)

 

[cholas]

Hi T.C.,
I found myself in nearly the same predicament a few months ago and would like to share what I learned from the experience.

In this case it was 5 persons, 2 of which were highly motivated towards growth(musically speaking) and expanding into other work venues. We(the 2 of us) depend greatly on playing gigs to support our families and this became our main concern. The others had lucrative day jobs and were more interested in just 'having fun'. This being the root of our 'problem'.

Many e-mails and hours spent communicating our concerns led to our group being disbanded(after 2 years of playing together). The 'needies'(2 of us who depended on growth/work) organized a new band with other 'needies' who share common goals and needs. The other 3, 'funners' brought in 2 others to replace us who also have day jobs and are really only interested in having a good time. All good.

In the end we are still good friends, recognize our individual needs and, largely due to good communication, have moved on to what fits our energy better.

A little review of the recent Oct.22 session is worth looking at as well:

A: You should sing more. Clear melodies can change the vibration of your physical structure.

Q: (A****) That's why I sing in the bathroom.

A: Art and music are your gifts. Do not waste them.

Q: (A****) So that's why I sing because I know subconsciously...

A: You should study voice. It could be your ticket to dreamland.

Q: (A*****) So if I follow this candida thing and stop being so weird then it could help me accomplish my goals? (Discussion)

A: Yes. Always. When the voice within is in harmony with the voice without, the angels will sing with you.

Q: (A***) Okay. Sounds good. So when I do all this stuff, and I bloom, will I know instinctively where I ought to be?

A: Yes.

 

[webglider]

[I found myself in nearly the same predicament a few months ago and would like to share what I learned from the experience.

In this case it was 5 persons, 2 of which were highly motivated towards growth(musically speaking) and expanding into other work venues. We(the 2 of us) depend greatly on playing gigs to support our families and this became our main concern. The others had lucrative day jobs and were more interested in just 'having fun'. This being the root of our 'problem'.

Many e-mails and hours spent communicating our concerns led to our group being disbanded(after 2 years of playing together). The 'needies'(2 of us who depended on growth/work) organized a new band with other 'needies' who share common goals and needs. The other 3, 'funners' brought in 2 others to replace us who also have day jobs and are really only interested in having a good time. All good.

In the end we are still good friends, recognize our individual needs and, largely due to good communication, have moved on to what fits our energy better

Cholas' reply is a practical application of what I was suggesting. It's a win-win situation because everyone's needs seemed to have been met, everyone is still playing, and everyone is still friends. The many emails that allowed communication among the members of the band reversed the downward spiral so that the original aim which was to play music continued with all members of the original band who were able to clarify their needs and find the format that was suitable for those needs.

 

[T.C.]

Hi Genero81 and cholas.

Thank you for the helpful info on your personal experiences. It's good to have other insight and examples of future possibilities. Also, I'd never seen that passage from the C's before.

Webglider. Thanks for the reminder of that law. I remember G.s explanation of it from ISOTM. I think there's a really good case for the aim/path of the band "sliding" from how it was originally.

I want to talk a bit about Sleep.

I have daily frustration with my own Sleep and subjectivity and how many problems it causes; I know I'm no objective being and haven't Worked on myself. But there is one advantage in that I KNOW I'm asleep and I know for how many years I've gone through life without simple, logical thinking (which I think stopped during school years by learning to think just enough to get the teacher off my back rather than for the personal pleasure and fulfilment it can bring) - without stopping myself, asking why I'm doing something, assessing the situation and making efforts to keep going in the direction I would like - and what a fine mess that's got me into. Maybe thinking in that way is like an example of how we can add shocks to an octave to keep it ascending.

So I now question myself more because I know I act automatically and can't trust myself, and even if I can't come up with useful answers or See myself, it's a start and does help. I've found keeping a journal very useful for that.

It's this lack of these qualities in my band mates that I'm frustrated with; and I may have fallen into a trap of thinking I'm better than them, that they're not worthy of my time because they don't question themselves and make it so difficult just to get something done in an easy, efficient, effective and practical way. They set off down a road that leads to a dead end, that they could probably have anticipated if they'd stopped and thought about it.

It's this narcissism that is making me want to leave. Maybe I don't have to do that if I can put the experience in it's rightful place, remembering what - as automatons - we're capable of and what we're not. Like I said, I get on with the guys really well and we have fun and make music we all like.

I should communicate my worries about the things I don't think are helpful to the band; I know they want what's best for us too. Maybe by participating in a project like this, they can't NOT be asking for a mirror, and my silly "esoteric fear of violating their free will" is completely misplaced and not applicable to the situation.

Then, if they disagree and want to continue on their present course, at least I tried and then I can move on.

I just don't want to put them in a position where they stop doing what they want to do just because they think I'll leave if they don't do things my way.

As PepperFritz wrote:

The other members will either take and use the growth opportunity you are giving them, or they will not. It is not your responsibility, it is theirs.

 

[T.C.]

I made the decision to quit the band. I told the guys and they were a bit shocked, but I just told them I wasn't enjoying it any more and didn't want to carry on if my heart wasn't in it, and it wouldn't be fair on them to do that either.

I didn't voice my concerns because I didn't want them to change just to make me happy or keep hold of me. There were good things about the interaction, but it wasn't going anywhere and there were dynamics which I could just feel weren't right and I'm going to go with my instincts.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to the discussion. It gave me some different views and ideas that I couldn't have had on my own.

 

[kenlee]

quote=Mouravieff] Because of the Law of Seven. annihilation does not occur in the first cycle, nor in the following cycles until the force of the initial impulse is exhausted. In the meantime, the law makes it possible to revive any movement which is losing its energy and its speed, by imparting supplementary impulses to it at opportune momeents and points.

Mouravieff continues by providing a definition of The Law Of Seven which he prefaces by linking it to Time, (which I don't fully understand, but may be more accessible to you.)

These considerations on the curvature of Time and all movement - including any physical, mental, or moral action whatever its nature permit us to give a definition to the Law of Seven.
Definition:Any movement that begins in a given direction undergoes a deviation at a certain moment.
Conversely: For a movement going towards a definte goal to continue without deviation in the same direction, it is necessary to impart to it adequate additional impulses at specific moments and points.
Corrolary: If left to itself, by the third deviation a movement which follows a definite direction is found to be boing in the DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSITE DIRECTION

Although I find the descriptions of law of seven very interesting (to ponder over) as described by Ouspensky and Mouravieff in their books I always had great difficulty in actually seeing the reality of this law in 'real time' with respect to my own life. It's like my mind can understand it intellectually but to actually be aware of the sequential progression of this law in my own past and present life is, at least for me, something else entirely. Actually it might involve, and I am just speculating here, another mode of cognition in order to become conscious of this law acting within our own life. Kinda like some kind of emergent revelation or something like that might be required. Actually, and again I'm speculating here, this 'cognition' to which I refer might have more do with a kind of 'listening' (for it) rather then looking for it in terms of some intellectual sequential framework as per the descriptions given it in Ouspensky's and Mouravieff’s books (I'm not saying that their descriptions were 'wrong' but possibly not complete}.

I'm just reminded of the term Gurdjieff uses in his chapter on Heptaparaparshinokh in Beelzebub’s Tales where he uses the term 'tazaloorinono' and defines it as 'the-seven-aspectness-of-every-whole-phenomenon,' where every whole has seven independent elements. Note the term 'whole phenomenon' and the word ‘aspectness’ which connotes qualities

So, as I understand it he's talking about the law of seven (at least in this case) in qualitative terms as a 'whole' phenomenon, with seven independent aspects and not in terms of a sequence. The notes on the piano keyboard that form the musical octave and the light spectrum that forms white light already exist as a whole. So maybe one must think of the law of seven as both a sequence and as a 'whole' unit (along with different modes of cognition that is able to qualitatively perceive it, or parts of it, in any given point in space and time) so as to just begin to rap our minds around it and begin to understand it? Just a thought.