Bizarre event - When to intervene?

[Mrs.Tigersoap]

Something strange happened yesterday and I wanted to network in order to understand more, about myself and about the situation as well.

We were sitting with Tigersoap, Little Miss Tigersoap, a friend and I at the terrace of a café, having a fruit juice. People were passing by and the the street was really busy. While talking, I notice that just in front of me a man passing by suddenly stops dead in his tracks, and goes to the seat next to our, crouches and tries to look ‘discreetly’ in a clothes store shopping bag left under a chair. It belonged to a lady that was there minutes ago and she apparently forgot it. The man seems to find the contents to his liking and in on the verge of taking the bag when Tigersoap and I say, at the same time: ‘Excuse me Sir, this bag belongs to the lady who was sitting there’. He looks at us, and becomes directly abusive towards me, calling me names and telling to mind my own business, etc. He then goes on to say that I’m racist, that I immediately assumed that he was going to steal the bag because he was arabic when in fact he wanted all along to take the bag to give it back to the café owner. So I replied to him, that no I’m not racist, that his behaviour was more than suspicious and that apparently we all agree that the bag, not belonging to him, should be returned to the owner, so, what is exactly the problem? He then apparently feels forced to go inside and give the shopping bag to the café owner, all the while saying abusive stuff to me. When he is inside, Tigersoap and I talk about how the guy is really creepy because although he was hurling abuse at me (at no point did he say anything to Tigersoap by the way when after all, he had intervened as well), his face was totally devoid of emotions.
And then I’m having some weird feeling of déjà vu and I finally remember: about a year ago, in that same place, I was with a younger girlfriend of mine. The place was really packed and at some point, my friend’s bag slides off the back of her chair and she catches it mid-air but cannot put it back on her chair because a man has it in his hands and does not want to let it go and is already motioning toward the door with it. She says ‘hey!’ but I can see she is so shocked by this that she doesn’t really respond and he is going to go away with the bag. So I stand up and say firlmy ‘give her back the back!’ with the most self-assurance I can commend (although I’m really scared inside). The guy looks at me and his stare is totally empty. This scares me even more, but I don’t want him to steal my friend’s purse. At that point, lots of people are looking at us and it’s getting even more embarrassing. He then just lets go of the bag, not saying anything. He then continues shopping inside as if nothing happened. I think the guy really has a lot of nerves and I tell him: ‘Leave now!!’. Which he does. He just looks at me, with his empty stare.
And now on the terrace I finally recognize him, it’s the same guy!! The same guy doing the same trick in the same place with the same person preventing him to do so. The only difference is that, this time, he is answering and is very verbally abusive.

I have really mixed feelings about this: I just thought he was out of line, that he should not steal something that is not his. At the same time, this is none of my business. But when does something like that becomes your business then? I absolutely does not consider myself a vigilante or anything, far from it. That sort of stuff actually happened twice in my life and, it turns out, twice with the same guy!!! What are the odds of that? After a while I was thinking ‘what if he had pulled a knife, etc.’ and I was really feeling like a fool.

This left me with a very bizarre feeling so I wanted to share it with you for advice.


Mod's note: Edited to remplace the real name by the forum name.

 

[Laura]

You don't need advice. You did the right thing, you experienced the behavior of a pathological person, and that's that. If ANYTHING at all, I would take the two incidents onboard and never go to that place again, never put a bag in any place where it can be lifted, and keep my eyes open all the way around against theft.

 

[RedFox]

Hi Mrs.Tigersoap
Sounds like you are a little shocked/shook up by this encounter. Hope you've done some pipe breathing to calm down.

Laura is right, my first thought was never to go their again.

This left me with a very bizarre feeling

I learnt to remember and recognise this feeling, it is a very important one. I've run into situations with telephone sales people or face to face encounters (not quite on this scale) that have left me with that 'very bizarre' feeling. In my experience it is the feeling you get after some sort of manipulation has taken place.
I use it is a big red flag, as soon as I feel it I become hyper vigilant.

Tigersoap and I say, at the same time: 'Excuse me Sir, this bag belongs to the lady who was sitting there'. He looks at us, and becomes directly abusive towards me, calling me names and telling to mind my own business, etc.

When he is inside, Tigersoap and I talk about how the guy is really creepy because although he was hurling abuse at me (at no point did he say anything to Tigersoap by the way when after all, he had intervened as well), his face was totally devoid of emotions.

I think it is interesting that he aimed his attack at you directly. I may be mistaken in my interpretations but there appears to be some interesting energy dynamics going on here (re:Unholy Hungers).
I'd read this as you being 'the most vulnerable' of the three and as such easiest to 'attack'...the net result being the most 'emotional energy' generated/fed upon/stolen. Vulnerable in this case then means 'most likely to generate negative emotions if provoked'. Think 4d STS feeding.....whether it was or not I cannot say, but the emotionally void 'dead' face/eyes seem to be a clue. Manipulation to his own ends being the goal.

He looks at us, and becomes directly abusive towards me, calling me names and telling to mind my own business, etc.

Intimidation, net result in yourself (and others) is triggering of 'flight or fight' response, adrenal surge and (because your attention has now shifted to your own survival) dropping of objective awareness.....disabling of objectivity as a defence.

His loudness is also important here (especially in the energy dynamics). If the heard (crowd) sense a predator they panic and all switch into 'flight or fight'.....this is where embarrassment (and any associated programs) for being 'the centre of attention' kick in. It is something to do with attention/energy flowing your/his way.
Having the crowd react also influences yourself....as you are part of the crowd (i.e. have empathy and a shared connection) your sense of 'flight or fight' and 'embarrassment' at being the central point of this predatory conflict will get triggered.
This is a manipulation.

He then goes on to say that I'm racist, that I immediately assumed that he was going to steal the bag because he was arabic when in fact he wanted all along to take the bag to give it back to the café owner.

Another excellent program to trigger in someone if you want them 'to feel embarrassment'. He's making out that you are the predator here!! The crowd senses this and turns 'all eyes on you'.
Imagine a lion pointing to a wilder beast and shouting "LOOK EVERYONE A LION".....the wilder beast believe the lion and treat their fellow wilder beast as a the predator.....those 'eyes on you' are preparing to 'fight you or run for their life'.
This is a manipulation.

So I replied to him, that no I’m not racist, that his behaviour was more than suspicious and that apparently we all agree that the bag, not belonging to him, should be returned to the owner, so, what is exactly the problem? He then apparently feels forced to go inside and give the shopping bag to the cafe owner, all the while saying abusive stuff to me.

He is still trying to convince you/others 'he is the victim here' and 'you are the predator'....everyone's 'embarrassment' programs would be triggered and he would be ignored.
Also....he can use going inside to his advantage because unless someone followed him he could take something from the bag without you seeing it.
More manipulation.

about a year ago, in that same place, I was with a younger girlfriend of mine. The place was really packed and at some point, my friend's bag slides off the back of her chair and she catches it mid-air but cannot put it back on her chair because a man has it in his hands and does not want to let it go and is already motioning toward the door with it. {he has his pray} She says 'hey!' but I can see she is so shocked by this that she doesn't really respond {here he is using shock to get what he wants} and he is going to go away with the bag. So I stand up and say firlmy 'give her back the back!' with the most self-assurance I can commend (although I'm really scared inside). The guy looks at me and his stare is totally empty. This scares me even more, but I don’t want him to steal my friend’s purse. {he knows his 'stare' scares people....but your will power over rode his intended reaction in you....he knows he is not having the desired effect} At that point, lots of people are looking at us and it's getting even more embarrassing. {because you initiated the confrontation in a load authoritative manor (just like he did to you with his accusations of 'racism' above...except his was false and yours was true), you have the upper hand....all eyes are on him! he has little response to that, this is a role reversal of above} He then just lets go of the bag, not saying anything. He then continues shopping inside as if nothing happened {he just blends back into the crowd, his last tactic is to make out you are at fault, so all eyes leave him} . I think the guy really has a lot of nerves {emotionless calculation} and I tell him: 'Leave now!!'. Which he does. He just looks at me, with his empty stare. {you put eyes back on him when he was trying to hide....so he left. Those eyes where reading your intentions, and he could see you where not going to drop it...perhaps he has learnt some new tricks since then in how to get people to drop it?}

This would be my assessment of the interaction....I hope its of some use.


Edit=Name changed for privacy.

 

[truth seeker]

Just wanted to say Mrs. Tigersoap that I'm sorry this happened to you and hope you're okay.

edit: Oops! Just realized I forgot the s in Mrs.

 

[clerck de bonk]

Just wanted to say Mr. Tigersoap that I'm sorry this happened to you and hope you're okay.

I would say, fortunately it happened to You and not somebody else(somebody else might not have acted)... But be safe above all.

 

[Buddy]

Hi Mrs.Tigersoap.

Years ago when I went to Atlanta, Georgia it was my first time in a big city and I was by myself. At lunch I went into a Carl's Jr for burger and fries. While sitting at my table eating, I observed a customer at a table in front of me get up from his table and go back to the counter for something.

At that exact instant, a fellow walked in off the street, quickly surveyed the tables and took all the food he saw, including the lunch of the guy who had just got up from his table to go to the counter. He then quickly left.

Of course, the customer whose food was stolen was very hot about it, but I was stunned! I'd never seen such a brazen, callous theft before and didn't know what to do or say, but I've seen many things like that and what you describe since then, so I very much suggest to take the lesson on-board for your benefit.

I'm glad that no one was hurt during the incident.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

I'd advise the same thing as Laura. It looks like this is this guy's "territory" that he probably frequents to steal things. While I don't disagree with your actions, I do think that it's best you don't become a constant sore in this guy's back by always being there and catching him in the act. This could discourage him from further attempts and force him to do this elsewhere, or it could trigger violence because you're cutting off his food supply. You were lucky you were in a crowded setting and with company. Either way, it's probably best to not frequent a place you know is a hotspot for this sort of activity, it's just not safe, especially if you're interfering with their predatory behavior.

 

[Laura]

... I was stunned! I'd never seen such a brazen, callous theft before and didn't know what to do or say, but I've seen many things like that and what you describe since then, so I very much suggest to take the lesson on-board for your benefit.

Yeah, I lived a pretty sheltered life, or so it seems, until Vincent Bridges came along. The shenanigans that he and Stormbear Williams pulled shocked me to my bones. I'd never seen anything so brazen and bizarre and crazy in my life!

Funny, we were talking about it today at lunch. My daughter cleaned her desk stuff and found the bank stamp we had for Perseus Foundation. It reminded me of one of the things that Vinnie wrote that just floored me: about people who supposedly wrote to him complaining we had stolen their money... they claimed to have cancelled checks paid to the foundation with Ark's signature on the back. That was so brazen a lie it took my breath away. Obviously, Vinnie wasn't aware of banking rules, that a foundation has to have a stamp for endorsement, the bank won't accept the checks with an individual's signature!

Now, I DO understand that pathological people can and WILL do things that are utterly impossible for the normal person, without shame, without even a second thought. And if you call them out on it, YOU are to blame. If they murder you, it's YOUR fault for making them do it!

 

[Buddy]

Now, I DO understand that pathological people can and WILL do things that are utterly impossible for the normal person, without shame, without even a second thought. And if you call them out on it, YOU are to blame. If they murder you, it's YOUR fault for making them do it!

Exactly. It hasn't been that long since I read Vinnie's blog where he talked about that stuff, doing his best to sound utterly reasonable. Funny thing is, I can see his blind spots and fantasy fill-ins quite clearly from this point on my learning curve.

...and the Work goes on... :D

 

[Mrs.Tigersoap]

Thank you all for your input!

If ANYTHING at all, I would take the two incidents onboard and never go to that place again, never put a bag in any place where it can be lifted, and keep my eyes open all the way around against theft.

Laura is right, my first thought was never to go their again.

Either way, it's probably best to not frequent a place you know is a hotspot for this sort of activity, it's just not safe, especially if you're interfering with their predatory behavior.

I'm glad I have shared this story here because I had not thought about avoiding the place, actually. Reading your comments it makes sense. I had not thought about it because in between these two events, I have been to that place many times (it's one of the very few places where you can eat or drink healthy and fresh stuff, it's very nice, not at all a shady place), and never saw anything like that. To me the problem was the guy, not the place. But it seems indeed to be his turf... I cannot completely avoid the area though as it is one of the city centres.

I learnt to remember and recognise this feeling, it is a very important one. I've run into situations with telephone sales people or face to face encounters (not quite on this scale) that have left me with that 'very bizarre' feeling. In my experience it is the feeling you get after some sort of manipulation has taken place.
I use it is a big red flag, as soon as I feel it I become hyper vigilant.

Thank you for that, Redfox. I was wondering what this feeling was about. I thought maybe it was me second-guessing my actions.

I think it is interesting that he aimed his attack at you directly. I may be mistaken in my interpretations but there appears to be some interesting energy dynamics going on here (re:Unholy Hungers).

Yes, Tigersoap and I thought that too, that he was purposefully attacking me only. Tigersoap was defending me, telling him to put an end to it, etc. but at no time did he even look at him.

He is still trying to convince you/others 'he is the victim here' and 'you are the predator'....everyone's 'embarrassment' programs would be triggered and he would be ignored.

Actually when he did that, I became even more determined not to back down because I thought that was such a cheap ploy. But people passing by, just hearing half of the exchange, must have believed him. My friend became all red when the guy accused me of being racist. It did trigger something in me as well, because I've read Malcolm Gladwell's Blink and I know one can have prejudice without being aware of it.

This would be my assessment of the interaction....I hope its of some use.

Absolutely! Thank you very much!

Just wanted to say Mrs. Tigersoap that I'm sorry this happened to you and hope you're okay.

But be safe above all.

Thank you Truth and Clerck for your concern. I'm fine, don't worry.

but I was stunned! I'd never seen such a brazen, callous theft before and didn't know what to do or say,

Yeah I have too, but I was so stunned, as you were, that I usually just remained there, mouth wide open.

so I very much suggest to take the lesson on-board for your benefit.

You mean not going there anymore or never again act in a similar situation?

You were lucky you were in a crowded setting and with company. Either way, it's probably best to not frequent a place you know is a hotspot for this sort of activity, it's just not safe, especially if you're interfering with their predatory behavior.

You're right, I was lucky. I was not aware that I was interfering for the second time with that guy's behaviour. I don't think he recognized me (but an emotionless face is pretty hard to read so who knows), but I'm not pushing my luck a third time.

The shenanigans that he and Stormbear Williams pulled shocked me to my bones. I'd never seen anything so brazen and bizarre and crazy in my life!

Yes, nothing compares to what these individuals put you and your family through.
Sometimes I think it's a miracle how 'normal' people can survive for as long as we do in a world full of people like that. It never ceases to amaze me. Then again, many don't survive...

Thank you all for your input, it's very appreciated! :)

 

[Buddy]

so I very much suggest to take the lesson on-board for your benefit.

You mean not going there anymore or never again act in a similar situation?

I meant about going there as well as guarding yours and your family's own property (in the sense of being wise to learn from what almost happened to someone else's stuff).

BTW, the 3rd quote from 'Bud' should be attributed to SAO. :)

 

[dannybananny]

At that exact instant, a fellow walked in off the street, quickly surveyed the tables and took all the food he saw, including the lunch of the guy who had just got up from his table to go to the counter. He then quickly left.

I have just two questions; "What would you do if you don't have job and can't get it and you don't have that knowledge you have now? Would you steal?

 

[knowledge_of_self]

Hey Mrs. Tigersoap

Thanks for sharing your experience. As others have said, my thought was also for you to avoid the place.

In addition, a thought I had about him singling you out was that maybe he also remembered you as being the woman who ‘caught’ him in your previous interaction? So when he recognized that you’re the same person who’s caught him a second time, he just let loose with the insults.

You were lucky you were in a crowded setting and with company.

I think while I probably would have done the same thing if I was in your position, I do question if that’s a program within me because I need to stand up for injustice whenever I see it. And that’s not always the best thing to do, (especially while you’re in the company of young ones) because the fact is, this world is filled with crazy people, and sometimes it really doesn’t matter if there is people around or not. This person could have stabbed you or anything really (worst case scenario of course). But considering things like HAARP, etc… it really gives you a pause. Also considering he may have a ‘grudge’ towards you from your past interaction.

At that exact instant, a fellow walked in off the street, quickly surveyed the tables and took all the food he saw, including the lunch of the guy who had just got up from his table to go to the counter. He then quickly left.

I have just two questions; "What would you do if you don't have job and can't get it and you don't have that knowledge you have now? Would you steal?

It’s interesting that you mention this danny. Because reading this thread made me think of how much theft probably has/will go up in the near future due to bad economy etc.. Sometimes, people may not be crazy, just hungry and/or in need of money for various reasons. It is sad, but it’s reality. We’re living in tough times.

Just some thoughts..

 

[Mrs.Tigersoap]

In addition, a thought I had about him singling you out was that maybe he also remembered you as being the woman who ‘caught’ him in your previous interaction? So when he recognized that you’re the same person who’s caught him a second time, he just let loose with the insults.

I really don't think he recognized me. I was just standing between him and his loot, in a way, and it was the trigger to his insult. At no moment did I see a flicker of recognition in his eyes. He took the bag, I said my thing and automatically he began his tirade. He seemed to be so 'not there' during the whole time, really like a robot. The first time, a year ago, he did not utter a word and he seemed even more off, as if he was on drugs or something.

I think while I probably would have done the same thing if I was in your position, I do question if that’s a program within me because I need to stand up for injustice whenever I see it. And that’s not always the best thing to do, (especially while you’re in the company of young ones) because the fact is, this world is filled with crazy people, and sometimes it really doesn’t matter if there is people around or not. This person could have stabbed you or anything really (worst case scenario of course). But considering things like HAARP, etc… it really gives you a pause.

This was my line of thought as well: when to intervene, when is it a program, when is it too risky, when is it not my business? It's difficult to evaluate all that in a matter of seconds (if you wait longer, the guy is gone). And not reacting at all in all cases is just unthinkable as well: when I read in the newspaper about a train full of people looking elsewhere while a woman is being assaulted by a gang of youth, it makes me physically ill. We're living in a society where looking elsewhere becomes the norm. This saddens me very much.

I have just two questions; "What would you do if you don't have job and can't get it and you don't have that knowledge you have now? Would you steal?

Years ago, I witnessed a homeless guy stealing a sandwich from a popular local health food restaurant chain. I did not do anything. Maybe I am biased, but I reasoned that he probably needed it more than the restaurant chain. It's not OK to steal, but the guy looked hungry. Then again, maybe the guy I stopped is hungry as well and sells the things he steals to eat. And maybe it's just his lifestyle.


I basically reacted with my guts, which is not the best way to deal with things.

 

[anart]

I basically reacted with my guts, which is not the best way to deal with things.

I would have likely reacted the same way. Just because someone must steal to survive doesn't mean we have to stand by silently while they victimize people.