borderline personalities and psychopaths

[grunchdekker]

There is a danger of mix up between the so called borderline personality disorder (BPD) and psychopathy. I know a person who I thought was a psychopath, but this person was sent to mental hospital (after he had threatened to kill his mother and father), and it turned out that he suffered from BPD .
He was "chaotic and unstable in interpersonal relationships, in self-image, identity, and behavior", as it is said of this disorder.
So, don't mix up these two personality disorders. Working with every-day concepts and layman psychology this mix- up might occur.

 

[thevenusian]

There is a danger of mix up between the so called borderline personality disorder (BPD) and psychopathy....
So, don't mix up these two personality disorders. Working with every-day concepts and layman psychology this mix- up might occur.

I quite agree that most of us are not qualified to make a clinical diagnosis of most forms of character or personality pathologies. There is a huge amount of material here on this forum and in the suggested reading which relates to this topic in all its many forms. IMO it is not necessary to diagnose anyone with any degree of certainty, but it is HUGELY valuable to inform oneself of the existence of these pathologies and the various forms of trouble which arise from them and how that works. My own history contains up close experience with both BPD and schizophrenia and a fair amount of learning from sources versed in traditional psychotherapy. Even with my feet wet, so to speak from personal experience, there has been a great advancement of my understanding which has come from digging into the material represented here.

This is a very complicated business for people with limited experience & knowledge to understand. I know because that is how I was, too. I was absolutely ignorant until I was hit in the face and had to wake up. My impression for the most part on this forum is that participants are busy gaining the knowledge, and are being skillfully assisted by those who have traveled further down this road and searched far & wide. If you are interested, you might find the short book 'In Sheep's Clothing' (by George K Simon) a real eye-opener. He provides a framework for thinking about the pathologies which is different from the traditionally-based, at least in my opinion.

Most Borderline Personalities go un-diagnosed and would never even be able to admit anything was wrong unless there are really compelling and forceful reasons, even though they may be making a big mess for themselves and those around them. Far more important than wrangling a diagnosis out of a BP (or any other psychopathological) is recognizing behavior that is a problem and taking the necessary actions to set up a perimeter boundary and protect oneself.

Just my two-cents, and welcome.

 

[grunchdekker]

Dear Thevenusian
What you said is so true,so true....and I would like to add that the so called layman should at least once take a psychology text book at their reading, just to see how elaborate and rich the concepts of psychology /psychiatry are today....take for example the distinction between sociopaths, psychopaths, and narccisists. These categories overlap in a very subtle way, and it needs both talent and education to distinguish between actual cases.
And yes, BPD is something that goes often unnoticed, at least for the untrained eye. This is a tragedy. It just means that someone close (like a husband or wife) to BPD-person suffers in silence, not knowing why his/her life is somewhat of a mess.

 

[anart]

Hi grunchdekker, have you taken the time to actually read the material available here, and on the associated web pages, that deals with psychopathology and personality disorders?  I ask because your posts have a flavor or subtle accusation, so hopefully you've taken the time to read the material available so you an realize how very well-versed many members of this forum (some of them professionals in the mental health field) are.  Welcome to the forum - there is a search function at the top of the page that can be utilized to find relevant information.

 

[grunchdekker]

dear anart,

as a reply to your question, yes I have, and I appreciate your site.
If I sounded as accusing, that maybe because I have visited so many forums dealing with these issues....so I'm acquainted with all sorts of discussions, and let me take as an example just one extreme: a woman blaming his man to be a psychopath just because he wanted to buy a sports car....well, this sort of judging just pisses me off

 

[Laura]

grunchdekker, keep in mind that some members of this forum - and of QFS - ARE qualified professionals and we generally discuss any tentative diagnoses with them, or they discuss it here themselves. We are also interested in ways and means to help the average person to make assessments (not medical diagnoses, notice) on their own for their own protection.

IMO, children should be taught about pathological people starting at about grade 5 and continuing through their school years. That knowledge alone would cut down on a lot of pain and suffering in their lives (one would hope).

Also keep in mind that pathological individuals, according to the best evidence, tend to "rise to the top" in fields that allow them power and control over others, and such fields include not only business and politics, but also medicine and academics, including topics such as psychology and psychiatry. Such spheres of influence are ripe for manipulation by those who seek to conceal or confuse the topic so as to better hide their own pathology. That's probably the main reason for the "diagnostic confusion."

You may want to read Harrison Koehli's recent article on psychopathy: On the Nature of Psychopathy: A Thought Experiment for insight into the problem we face.

Finally, it would be thoughtful on your part to write an introduction in the New Members' Forum telling us about yourself, your qualifications, your experiences, etc so that you don't come off as just another pathological whining and kicking because you are afraid your game has been sussed.

 

[seek10]

There is a danger of mix up between the so called borderline personality disorder (BPD) and psychopathy. I know a person who I thought was a psychopath, but this person was sent to mental hospital (after he had threatened to kill his mother and father), and it turned out that he suffered from BPD .
He was "chaotic and unstable in interpersonal relationships, in self-image, identity, and behavior", as it is said of this disorder.
So, don't mix up these two personality disorders. Working with every-day concepts and layman psychology this mix- up might occur.

Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care about Has Borderline Personality Disorder (Paperback) has very good description of the BPD cases. After reading this book, I think the confusion will reduce drastically. This book was written based on the experiences of the victims and therapists struggle to make sense in relation to existing psychology literature( which is a academic stunt) . After reading this book, I understood BPD as a intense and uncontrollable extention of the emotional trauma coping mechanism ofcourse mixed with infinite shades of narcism and its sources rather than psychopathy ( which is basically lack of emotional center /conscience). Amazon book has "look inside" feature, so you can read the book.

 

[Gimpy]

There is a danger of mix up between the so called borderline personality disorder (BPD) and psychopathy. I know a person who I thought was a psychopath, but this person was sent to mental hospital (after he had threatened to kill his mother and father), and it turned out that he suffered from BPD .
He was "chaotic and unstable in interpersonal relationships, in self-image, identity, and behavior", as it is said of this disorder.
So, don't mix up these two personality disorders. Working with every-day concepts and layman psychology this mix- up might occur.

Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care about Has Borderline Personality Disorder (Paperback) has very good description of the BPD cases. After reading this book, I think the confusion will reduce drastically. This book was written based on the experiences of the victims and therapists struggle to make sense in relation to existing psychology literature( which is a academic stunt) . After reading this book, I understood BPD as a intense and uncontrollable extention of the emotional trauma coping mechanism ofcourse mixed with infinite shades of narcism and its sources rather than psychopathy ( which is basically lack of emotional center /conscience). Amazon book has "look inside" feature, so you can read the book.

The first book I found on BPD was this one: I Hate You, Don't Leave Me: Understanding the Borderline Personality (Mass Market Paperback)

The 'blurb' for this one has a basic summary on symptoms:

Product Description
"AM I LOSING MY MIND?"

People with Borderline Personality Disorder experience such violent and frightening mood swings that they often fear for their sanity. They can be euphoric one moment, despairing and depressed the next. There are an estimated 10 million sufferers of BPD living in America today -- each displaying remarkably similar symptoms:
# a shaky sense of identity
# sudden violent outbursts
# oversensitivity to real or imagined rejection
# brief, turbulent love affairs
# frequent periods of intense depression
# eating disorders, drug abuse, and other
self-destructive tendencies
# an irrational fear of abandonment and an
inability to be alone

For years BPD was difficult to describe, diagnose, and treat. But now, for the first time, Dr. Jerold J. Kreisman and health writer Hal Straus offer much-needed professional advice, helping victims and their families to understand and cope with this troubling,shockingly widespread affliction.




As a personal note: In college during counseling, the therapist discovered that BPD, in my case, was situational. When around 'toxic' or 'neurotically compatible' people, my behavior reflected BPD. If it wasn't possible to avoid or defuse the situation, it grew worse, to the point of alcoholism and suicidal tendencies. I spent a lot of time during those years learning to self observe, and understand that being in situations that felt 'familiar' meant a red flag.

Another thought on BPD: Having read up on nutrition these last few months, it makes me wonder if BPD and a host of other disorders stem from magnesium deficiency.

 

[grunchdekker]

Also keep in mind that pathological individuals, according to the best evidence, tend to "rise to the top" in fields that allow them power and control over others, and such fields include not only business and politics, but also medicine and academics, including topics such as psychology and psychiatry. Such spheres of influence are ripe for manipulation by those who seek to conceal or confuse the topic so as to better hide their own pathology. That's probably the main reason for the "diagnostic confusion."

That cannot be the (main) reason for "diagnostic confusion". It is rather ignorance, I think. If everyone had as much knowledge as experienced psychologists, psychopaths and narcissist would not have a chance....and for that matter, I think you're right when you said that people should be trained to identify a psychopath, as hard as it is. And this training should start already in school, no matter how fascist this sounds: Hitler thought that schoolboys should be trained to tolerate physical mistreatment, but quite the opposite. Don't tolerate mistreatment, learn to spot those who are apt to practice it.

 

[Beau]

That cannot be the (main) reason for "diagnostic confusion". It is rather ignorance, I think. If everyone had as much knowledge as experienced psychologists, psychopaths and narcissist would not have a chance

The problem arises when the "experienced psychologists" themselves are narcissistic. I would venture to guess that a large percentage are dealing with some form of narcissism, so the idea that a psychologist has knowledge in this particular area is an assumption, especially because their is so much misinformation in this area by the psychopaths themselves, many whom have ascended to the top of the psychological profession. Do you see the problem now with regards to diagnostic confusion?

 

[Lou]

I have professional experience working with individuals diagnosed with various personality disorders. Borderline personality and narcissism are the most common that I have seen. My SOTT experience has led me to see at least a handful of those individuals diagnosed as narcissists as textbook psychopaths.
They all seem to be unable to see themselves from others' perspectives and posses zero to little empathy. I see the major separation in how they manage relationships and their affects.

Narcissists, psychopaths, etc. are calm smooth, and likable. Their mask of sanity seems to only be broken by anger or boasting. Their manipulation over others is subtle and effective. They are creepy. Those I saw as being likely psychopaths were the most likable.

Borderline individuals aren't nearly as "cool". They create drama and try to suck others in. Their emotions are high and irrational. They generally come across as obnoxious and manipulate others through big emotional outbursts, self-harm (pity), and sometimes violence. They are draining.

I should note that my observations come from work with younger people (typically 18-25). I've also worked with adolescents with BPD and psychopathic characteristics, however personality disorders are rarely diagnosed before age 18.

Hope this helps.

 

[grunchdekker]

Thanks for all the replies I have had to my original post!
I still have not written an introduction to the New Members Forum, maybe because I see no interesting points that I should mention of me and my life. But I try to work on that...
Especially Gimpy, thank you so much for giving reference to those textbooks!