expectations

Risen

Jedi Council Member
I'm a little confused about the idea that we should do the Work without any expectations. I can understand why we shouldn't have specific expectations as to a reward or something. Is it okay to expect that there will be some kind of change in awareness if we Work? Obviously anything we do will produce some kind of reaction. Isn't this a basic law of Physics? Even if we can't "do" and everything happens, there is a reaction. If I jump off a building, I will be injured, If I am pushed off a building, I will be injured, if I fall off a building by accident, I will be injured. In each of these cases, I suppose either anticipation, intervention or awareness could change the outcome in some way, however, there will be some kind of reaction to the event (even if I am not injured due to some kind of supernatural intervention).
Sorry if this is noise :-[. it has been on my mind a lot lately.
 
opossum said:
Is it okay to expect that there will be some kind of change in awareness if we Work? Obviously anything we do will produce some kind of reaction.

When done properly, the 'reaction' is something of which you may not even be aware, so there's really no need to worry about 'expectations' of change. If you truly learn something, it changes you.

I might use the example of a person who gets a job as a stage hand for an upcoming play. At first, you go up on stage and see a bunch of mysterious stuff lying around, hanging from ropes, empty stands and roller buggies and so forth.

Once you've been thoroughly trained and you've been there awhile, every item involved in that stage work, and it's purpose and the various ways it can be used, will be known to you like the back of your hand.

The situation hasn't changed, you have. So, we can probably say there is some 'law' like "self-extension" that works whether or not you're aware of it, so no need for 'expectations', OSIT, all you need concern yourself with is the actual activity of moment-by-moment learning.

Another example might be after you've been doing some Work for a long time and you go back and read some of your old threads and notice how simple it all is today, yet it was all a big deal in the past. What changed? The Work, or you? :)
 
I think the answer is twofold.

First, compare it to "unconditional love". You love and give without expecting anything in return to all those who ask, which is STO. If you expect something, you do it for your own ends, and this would be STS.

And second, due to the nonlinear nature of the universe, you cannot really expect which outcome your actions will have. Of course, jumping off a building, as you say, will injure you, but this cannot be called Work. It is very mechanical and it requires very lilttle energy input on your side. Work is the opposite of mechanicalness, hence no expectations.

Or so I think.
 
Bud said:
When done properly, the 'reaction' is something of which you may not even be aware, so there's really no need to worry about 'expectations' of change. If you truly learn something, it changes you.
Thank you for pointing that out, it makes a lot of sense.
Bud said:
I might use the example of a person who gets a job as a stage hand for an upcoming play. At first, you go up on stage and see a bunch of mysterious stuff lying around, hanging from ropes, empty stands and roller buggies and so forth.

Once you've been thoroughly trained and you've been there awhile, every item involved in that stage work, and it's purpose and the various ways it can be used, will be known to you like the back of your hand.

The situation hasn't changed, you have. So, we can probably say there is some 'law' like "self-extension" that works whether or not you're aware of it, so no need for 'expectations', OSIT, all you need concern yourself with is the actual activity of moment-by-moment learning.
I am beginning to understand. Thank you Bud, this is very helpful.
Bud said:
Another example might be after you've been doing some Work for a long time and you go back and read some of your old threads and notice how simple it all is today, yet it was all a big deal in the past. What changed? The Work, or you? :)
He He, I feel a little foolish. It really seems easy to understand it the way you explained it. It's like looking for something in a drawer full of junk. If you are in a hurry and rummaging about, you may look in the drawer many times and overlook it but if you just take everything out one by one and examine each thing you may find a worthy thing you lost and were not even "expecting" to find.
 
Data said:
I think the answer is twofold.

First, compare it to "unconditional love". You love and give without expecting anything in return to all those who ask, which is STO. If you expect something, you do it for your own ends, and this would be STS.
but is it STS to give with the expectation that your love will be nurturing or helpful for the receiver (as long as one wants to be loved by you). I guess maybe I'm using the wrong word. Maybe the word expectation should be changed to hope or something else.

Data said:
And second, due to the nonlinear nature of the universe, you cannot really expect which outcome your actions will have.
true, but I meant an expectation that there will be a non specific outcome, some kind of, hopefully, positive change of some kind such as becoming less mechanical or more STO oriented.
Data said:
Of course, jumping off a building, as you say, will injure you, but this cannot be called Work. It is very mechanical and it requires very lilttle energy input on your side. Work is the opposite of mechanicalness, hence no expectations.

Or so I think.
I realize that I may have made a poor analogy. Okay, so is this where something like faith comes in? You have faith the work is worthy in and of itself and so have desire to Work or something like that. Thank you for emphasizing the difference between mechanical action and Work .
 
Data said:
I think the answer is twofold.

First, compare it to "unconditional love". You love and give without expecting anything in return to all those who ask, which is STO. If you expect something, you do it for your own ends, and this would be STS.

And second, due to the nonlinear nature of the universe, you cannot really expect which outcome your actions will have. Of course, jumping off a building, as you say, will injure you, but this cannot be called Work. It is very mechanical and it requires very lilttle energy input on your side. Work is the opposite of mechanicalness, hence no expectations.

Or so I think.

I really like your description of it, thanks for that Data.
 
opossum said:
Bud said:
When done properly, the 'reaction' is something of which you may not even be aware, so there's really no need to worry about 'expectations' of change. If you truly learn something, it changes you.
Thank you for pointing that out, it makes a lot of sense.
Bud said:
I might use the example of a person who gets a job as a stage hand for an upcoming play. At first, you go up on stage and see a bunch of mysterious stuff lying around, hanging from ropes, empty stands and roller buggies and so forth.

Once you've been thoroughly trained and you've been there awhile, every item involved in that stage work, and it's purpose and the various ways it can be used, will be known to you like the back of your hand.

The situation hasn't changed, you have. So, we can probably say there is some 'law' like "self-extension" that works whether or not you're aware of it, so no need for 'expectations', OSIT, all you need concern yourself with is the actual activity of moment-by-moment learning.

I am beginning to understand. Thank you Bud, this is very helpful.

For clarity's sake, the various items belonging to the stage work can also be metaphors for the various fragmented parts of self. :)

opossum said:
Okay, so is this where something like faith comes in? You have faith the work is worthy in and of itself and so have desire to Work or something like that.

Gurdjieff was said to have been influenced by Sufi teachings (among others) and the Sufi have always said that one of the requirements of a student is that the student have reason to believe the Work is for him/her. If not 'reason', then faith will do if you consider the two as different, OSIT. :)

My 2 cents.
 
Bud said:
opossum said:
Okay, so is this where something like faith comes in? You have faith the work is worthy in and of itself and so have desire to Work or something like that.

Gurdjieff was said to have been influenced by Sufi teachings (among others) and the Sufi have always said that one of the requirements of a student is that the student have reason to believe the Work is for him/her. If not 'reason', then faith will do if you consider the two as different, OSIT. :)

My 2 cents.
I think it may be a matter of semantics. And Yes, I have reason to believe that the Work is for me (to do). I'm not sure if I consider reason and faith to be different. I guess, to me, they are the same thing with faith as being more connected to intuition or emotion and reason more to intellect just because of the way these words are commonly used in my geographical location. And so you have answered my question Bud because you understood me or because I understood you easily for whatever reason. Not that I didn't also learn something valuable and unexpected from the other responses also. And all replies are welcomed and appreciated.

Bud said:
For clarity's sake, the various items belonging to the stage work can also be metaphors for the various fragmented parts of self
So I became aware by working/self-remembering/study and networking, of these things in me or parts of me that i never knew existed before and with practice I will learn to use these parts of myself correctly. Like in a new job, before I learn about the tools, I might try to cut bread with a butcher knife and cut meat with a butter knife. Is this what is meant by wrong use of centers?
 
Legolas said:
Data said:
I think the answer is twofold.

First, compare it to "unconditional love". You love and give without expecting anything in return to all those who ask, which is STO. If you expect something, you do it for your own ends, and this would be STS.

And second, due to the nonlinear nature of the universe, you cannot really expect which outcome your actions will have. Of course, jumping off a building, as you say, will injure you, but this cannot be called Work. It is very mechanical and it requires very lilttle energy input on your side. Work is the opposite of mechanicalness, hence no expectations.

Or so I think.

I really like your description of it, thanks for that Data.


Same here. I think you've put it in a really clear way and I find it very helpful, thanks Data.
 

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