Free Will?
- Thread starter MetaDjinn
- Start date
sam
The Force is Strong With This One
Uh, if she was perfectly ok with it she wouldn't go around telling people about what she was going to do. She has just sucked you into her game, and it is rather manipulative. I think you should tell HR. Some may say it is a cry for help - maybe. But you didn't ask for such responsibility from a co-worker. Don't get sucked in to her manipulations, or so I think. Could be very dangerous.
I personally wouldn't go for HR of some company, I'm not sure how well they are capable of handling something like this. There are suicide help lines you can call (and tons of websites dedicated to this too) and all kinds of help available (1-800-SUICIDE if she's in US for example), and that I would definitely give to her and ask her to at the very least call the number first before doing anything. I'd maybe phrase it like, if you're going to kill yourself, you have nothing to lose by calling that number, and potentially everything to gain.MetaDjinn said:
Also, since she told you that she's going to do this, it's probably a sign that her mind is not as made up as she claims, and she might be "reaching out" for help by the very act of telling someone. It could also be just a manipulative ploy to get you to pity her and to get attention, so be careful and critical in assessing the situation. But in case it is the former, perhaps offer to talk with her before she does anything.
A few things you could potentially mention that may help:
How horrible the situation in this world is for BILLIONS of people - who are starving, their families and children are being killed and tortured, who seemingly would have no reason to live, but yet they go on, despite being much worse off than anybody in the Western world can imagine, they do not give up on life. If they can make it through such unimaginable hardships, can she muster the courage to make it through hers and come out on the other side victorious?
Ask her if she has any family (unless you know that she does), and how would they feel if she was suddenly gone? Is this something she can do to them?
Suggest that there are people in this world that care and definitely can help her no matter how bad the situation is that she's going through. If it seems that nobody cares it's only because her emotions have clouded her ability to think clearly at the moment, and it's not true. Any situation can be repaired, any problem can be fixed.
Also, and this totally depends on exactly what is making her feel suicidal, if she just happened to reach an emotional bankrupcy and is sick and tired of all the lies and bullshit in the world, perhaps you can suggest that you know how she feels and that there is light at the end of this very dark tunnel, a very bright light. Perhaps even suggest that she checks out SOTT and maybe that might re-ignite a greater purpose inside her, perhaps that's exactly what she was looking for?
But again, that totally depends on the situation, so be very careful what you say and how you say it. I think the key is to make her feel comfortable talking to you (so that she is more willing to discuss it), so you shouldn't try to "tell her" to do anything or "talk her out" of anything or take any tone that sounds like you're an authority or talking down to her or "judging" her. If she can feel that you understand where she's coming from, that might even be all she was looking for - someone who might understand her. It's not your job to be her psychologist, but I don't see anything wrong with talking to her like a friend, or just a coworker who simply cares. We're all put in the role of a "psychologist" all the time whether we call it that or not, osit.
But just to reiterate and concur with Sam's comment - be very careful, don't assume anything, as she could be just looking for someone to pity her and give her attention/energy.
Good luck.
MetaDjinn
Jedi
Well, I spoke to her again briefly. I didn't tell her what to do and I didn't try to "make" her change her mind. I just tried to probe a bit and tried to show her that her views are a bit narrow at the moment. She isn't receptive. She said that her mind is made up. I do feel like I am being manipulated and have a hunch that I'll continue to see her at work. I could be wrong and she may go through with it. I am not responsible for her. Thanks again.....
--Chris
--Chris
PepperFritz
The Cosmic Force
A good way to determine how "serious" someone is about suicide is to ask probing questions about how she intends to kill herself. Most people who are seeking attention and/or help have usually not thought it through, let alone obtained the means of carrying out a plan. Contrary to what many people think, committing suicide is not an easy thing to accomplish, it takes a lot of "work" to obtain the means. That's why deeply depressed people usually only go through with their suicidal impulses when they are actually feeling better, it takes a certain amount of energy and will power.MetaDjinn said:
There are, of course, exceptions to every "rule". But generally, people who are serious about suicide do not usually talk about their plans with loved ones, let alone relative strangers. So it does sound attention-seeking. Another way to try and establish her motives for telling you would be to simply ask her -- e.g. "Why have you shared this with me? Why me and not someone else? Who else have you shared this with? How did you expect me to react? How did you want me to react?", etc. People will tell you an awful lot if you just ask them the right questions.
A wise person once told me "Don't pay attention to what people SAY, listen to what they TALK ABOUT". For instance, someone may SAY that they really want to be in a committed relationship, but in the course of their conversations about it actually TALK ABOUT their fears and reservations about such a commitment more than they do about the commitment itself. And it is what they TALK ABOUT that is uppermost in their mind, and what will best predict their behaviour in the near future. Likewise, someone may SAY that they plan to commit suicide, but what they TALK ABOUT is not the how, when, and where of the act, but the extent of their emotional pain and sense of hopelessness, which is really what they want to communicate to you. Introducing the "suicide" angle is just a way of trying to convey to you how intense the pain is, rather than an indicator of what they are likely to do.
webglider
Dagobah Resident
If you did not feel somewhat responsible, you wouldn't have written to ask for advice here.MetaDjinn said:
It agree that this situation is beyond your ability to cope with, but it raises a larger question: what is the responsibility we owe to another?
Choosing to do nothing is a choice that is certainly yours to make, but you are responsible for that choice.
How long have you known this woman? Has her former behavior given you any basis for feeling that she is inherently unbalanced? If not, are you aware of any recent trauma that may have destabilized her emotionally?
I ask these questions because I can not think of any reason that she would have to try to manipulate you unless she wanted to be or was already emotionally involved with you and you were not interested or pulling away.
If you are the cause (in her mind), it would seem manipulative and could become problematic for you to say the least.
But if you aren't the cause, it may be a pure cry for help.
Maybe you should call 1-800-SUICIDE and ask their advice about the best way to handle the situation with your coworker.
In answer to your origninal question:
"Do I respect her will and choice or do I go to HR and tell? What would you do?"
I would consider the possibility that someone who is considering suicide may not be operating from a position of free will, but from pure emotion and distortion of thought, and I would factor in how I would feel if she actually did kill herself.
MetaDjinn
Jedi
Hi Webglider,webglider said:
You are correct: I asked for advice because I did feel *somewhat* responsible or I was unsure of what my responsibility is. It is a big question and I do not have the answer presently. There is much more to this story/individual. I am not "involved" with her emotionally, nor have I been in the past. We are "smoke buddies" and we talk over our cigarette breaks. To make a long story short, she is not here at work today. I spoke to my office mate, her ex-manager, about it. The response was "again"? You see, this girl does this to everyone, not just me, and we are all "forced" to deal with it. I did speak to her on several occasions yesterday. I did not try to talk her out of it or threaten to go to HR or the police or anything. I just tried to offer a different perspective and some alternative solutions. She was not receptive. If she doesn't show up at work within the next 30 minutes, we are going to call the police or her family. Yes, I will feel terrible if she were gone, but I honestly cannot say that I feel responsible. I just feel like the next person in line that has to deal with her - we are all forced to deal with her and that is what makes it hard and confusing.
Thanks,
Chris
Fwiw, based on what you've said about her, it looks like there is nothing you can do. So I think that's the right decision.MetaDjinn said:
All of our lives are "hard". So what? That's the whole point, otherwise we'd learn nothing. She's not special. She is not ill-equipped to handle her life's situation, not any less so than anyone else is. Billionaires sometimes kill themselves then they lose their billions. On the other end of the spectrum, there are billions of people on this blood-soaked space rock that would give anything to be in your delusional co-workers' shoes right now. So there really is no need to feel "horrible" about her killing herself even if she is "serious" about it. It's unfortunate if her self-pity and self-importance wins in the end, but no she wasn't blown up by a depleted uranium round, her family wasn't sold into slavery, she is not being tortured in Abu Ghraib, she is not starving or freezing to death or any number of other things that represent the common reality on this planet. If anything, she is *much* closer to the suicidal billionaire than she is to any of the horrors listed above and many others. So it is unfortunate, but it's not a tragedy, even if she might like for the world to stop turning and to collectively mourn her.
SAO, it seems your pouring a decent amount of energy into this, going from being overly sympathetic to being somewhat callous, imo. I think your making a lot of speculations (perhaps projections?) without much data. It is fairly clear that this woman is being manipulative, however we really don't have much of a clue as to what has occurred in this womans past and what is going on presently to bring about her current state of mind. It's pretty much beyond us, or MetaDjinn to figure these things out too. If a co-worker came to me with their suicidal thoughts I would at least want the option of psychological help to be offered to him or her by my company, as well as steps made to maintain a safe work environment.
Yeah looks like I was too quick to judge with too little data, as you said. But in a general sense I feel that someone who is truly suicidal should be offered help and sympathy in a practical and useful/beneficial way (like helping them towards an objective perspective), but at the same time not "pity", considering that no matter how bad things get, they can always get worse, and there are always plenty of people who have it worse.Shane said:
But that's the thing, I'm not sure how much a "company" can truly help someone. I guess that's kinda the issue, I work for a company too and I know that it's "human resources" is horribly soulless and superficial. I have been to things like an "empowerment seminar" and other similar corporate events for "self improvement". And it was all just lots of big meaningless words and absolutely no substance, hell, if anything, it would make me more depressed!Shane said:
And that's kinda the thing, it's a bit of a rock and hard place situation. On the one hand it's not your "job" to counsel strangers, but on the other hand there is this big corporate monster that has a bunch of standardized "procedures" designed by pathological people to "counsel" (brainwash) others into "happiness" because a happy and pro-active employee is a productive employee! We're talking about people who are entirely clueless, who are trained to say certain words and phrases. If you dare try to say something outside of their "training" that's a quick way to end that party. That may not necessarily be true for all the people and agencies that offer help, I'm just speaking from my experience in the company where I work.
sure, but I wouldn't express that to the person having suicidal thoughts. To such a person these things would likely come across as invalidation or denial of their pain.ScioAgapeOmnis said:
Geeze, I don't envy those 'empowerment seminars'... I doubt they empower people enough to mention how belittling those things are. But like Lobaczewski said, talentless hacks raise to the top in a ponerized society (to paraphrase a little). But despite their hubris in 'employee improvement' I think even they would know they would need to get professional psychological assistance for cases of suicidal employees.SAO said:
Mr. Premise
The Living Force
Actually, what a lot of corporations have done is hire companies who can refer you to counsellors for whatever type of problem an employee might have. I forgot what these programs are called, but it might be helpful in a way that human resources dept definitely wouldn't be.
Hiring these other companies for referral services helps keep the main company's healthcare costs down and shields the companies from some liability issues. But the companies they hire might point you to someone who could help, who knows?
Hiring these other companies for referral services helps keep the main company's healthcare costs down and shields the companies from some liability issues. But the companies they hire might point you to someone who could help, who knows?
ScioAgapeOmnis said: