Good feeding?

[lilyalic]

I think one of the features of the so-called STS type feeding is the desire to recreate pleasurable experiences. If we have some positive, uplifting experience without expecting it or trying to make it happen, it is natural and spontaneous. If we subsequently try to recreate such experiences deliberately, we end up using and feeding of others. Altruism can thus become a mask for the desire to feel good oneself through helping others. It can be subtle and not easily discernible.

Instead of second guessing ourselves about our potential "hidden" motivations and possibly angsting about whether we are feeding or not, a practical way of living is to be present to the situation at hand with as much attention we can muster, and respond as best we can. Situations are dynamic and unique especially if we pay close attention and if we make the additional effort to relate appropriately to the changing situation, there is not much internal resource available to deliberately execute on a desire (hidden or overt) to recreate an old experience. That does not guarantee we do not feed in a STS way - but I think this is pretty much what is in our control.

I think this is very sound, practical advice. I noticed that I tend to "recreate past experiences" (feeding) when I'm not aware, not self-remembering - especially in social situations that trigger old patterns, which I could not root out yet - these are usually those situations where I'm less experienced in terms of self-remembering. In other situations that I know well and have practiced self-remembering many times, I find that I can switch a bit more to "auto-pilot" without causing harm/feeding, or so I think. So yes, I think mustering our attention, remembering the Work and how easily we slip, seems important to avoid feeding.

A good rule of thump for me is to do what "it" doesn't like, as much as possible. So for example in a social situation I try to sense what "it" urges me to do and do the opposite - if I want to talk a lot and be funny, I try to hold myself and just listen; if I want to wander away/be silent, I try to talk and be funny; etc. I think a lot of feeding can be avoided that way, though of course it only goes so far.

By self-remembering in the situation/environment at hand, I find myself in those specific moments questioning my potential hidden motivations. Is there a possibility of becoming obsessed with trying not to feed, that it causes a negative effect? I.e. it just becomes another way of fooling yourself that you're trying to "work" but really you're only addressing the problem rather than sorting through it?

I tend to use "remember" as thinking; 1) What I'm feeling is probably irrational and the machine at work, 2) What is the reality in the situation and what does this look like without my interpretation.. .etc... As you said luc, doing what "it" doesn't like in terms of not talking when you feel the need to does help. In social situations, I tend to feel the need to talk about myself, but since working on stopping this all together, it just shown how much others talk about theirselves SO much, and aren't interested in you at all. I'll purposely ask questions about themselves over and over again, and it becomes quite interesting to see how much they don't "ask back".

It's a constant struggle, and maybe one day this does turn into an automatic response...

 

[Miss.K]

I think one of the features of the so-called STS type feeding is the desire to recreate pleasurable experiences. If we have some positive, uplifting experience without expecting it or trying to make it happen, it is natural and spontaneous. If we subsequently try to recreate such experiences deliberately, we end up using and feeding of others. Altruism can thus become a mask for the desire to feel good oneself through helping others. It can be subtle and not easily discernible.

Instead of second guessing ourselves about our potential "hidden" motivations and possibly angsting about whether we are feeding or not, a practical way of living is to be present to the situation at hand with as much attention we can muster, and respond as best we can. Situations are dynamic and unique especially if we pay close attention and if we make the additional effort to relate appropriately to the changing situation, there is not much internal resource available to deliberately execute on a desire (hidden or overt) to recreate an old experience. That does not guarantee we do not feed in a STS way - but I think this is pretty much what is in our control.

If this is the case, then with the baby experience, I didn't want to do it again (though I thought that if I got a baby I would experience that a lot, but I didn't get a baby) It is more like I carry the experience on the inside as something good.

With the hug experience, I did want to go back (still do though it's more than a year ago) but I didn't because I thought it would be wrong (he got my phone number and texted the next day, but I never replied) I really liked him (I didn't know him but really liked his energy, and he seemed like a good kind being) but I didn't think it would be fair, because I liked what he could give me, but I didn't want to be in a relationship with him, and knowing that ahead, I thought it wouldn't be fair to munch on his energy (though it was very tasty, and could have ended my internal eternal winter if I'd gotten more of it) So I decided with much regret that me feeling stupid for denying myself such a good thing, was better than eating him...

 

[Miss.K]

I have had the experience too of friends who were very weak, feeding on me (I would feel drained after) but that it wasn't really against my will (I've tried that too) but more as a willing blood transfer so that they wouldn't die. Would that be "wrong"?

 

[Miss.K]

By self-remembering in the situation/environment at hand, I find myself in those specific moments questioning my potential hidden motivations. Is there a possibility of becoming obsessed with trying not to feed, that it causes a negative effect? I.e. it just becomes another way of fooling yourself that you're trying to "work" but really you're only addressing the problem rather than sorting through it?

I'd say yes, I think it's a little like the sex thing. Like there is nothing wrong with sex, but there are a million ways to abuse the energy, and there is nothing wrong with absence either, but there is also a million ways of abusing absence, if that makes sense..

 

[Miss.K]

I'm not sure it have to be an equal exchange. If I meet someone who is starving, and share my bacon with him, I wouldn't think the act would be a STS thing unless he gave the same bacon back, or payed some other way (that would make the giving STS for sure, no?) Though it is possible to equally give and take, In some situations I'd say that it would be a good thing to just have one part giving and the other receiving, like giving comfort to a grieving, or donating blood to someone who have been in an accident, or healing someone in need if you have the power to...not against their will, but if someone is unconscious in an accident, I would rather not reach a higher level, and be damned in this hellhole forever, if reaching a higher level means I'm supposed to leave them because they are not able to ask directly if I would please call 911....

I can't say too much about interacting with baby, but issues you've noticed disturbed me also. I think there's fine difference beetwen persistent giving without asking and just proposing. Would you force somebody to be more STS (and you) with giving without request, meaning that one should give back (to reach the balance) but one don't know about it? Do you exspose one to accumulating the imbalance? If it is correct, would you do this? Of course, in some cases you effort will have effective result, but what about other levels, further possible consequences?

I do think request can happen energetically as well, also I think it is maybe important to remember that asking is not wrong (a lot of "strong" people, including me at times, think so somehow)
I agree that giving without being asked should be avoided, but giving should be freely, meaning that if I give a beggar money, it is not my job to think if he uses the money to buy alcohol, as that's not what his asking for...OSIT

 

[Nienna]

I know that cuddling babies, hugging friends, petting animals, etc. releases oxytocin, which is a hormone that makes us feel good. This could be what was happening with you and your grandchild. Doing EE can also have this effect, especially when doing it in a group.

 

[luc]

By self-remembering in the situation/environment at hand, I find myself in those specific moments questioning my potential hidden motivations. Is there a possibility of becoming obsessed with trying not to feed, that it causes a negative effect? I.e. it just becomes another way of fooling yourself that you're trying to "work" but really you're only addressing the problem rather than sorting through it?

I'm not sure how you would define the difference between "addressing the problem" and "sorting through it" - however, I think it's very important to self-observe, to study oneself, as much as possible, as a first step. Only then can we begin to change bad habits like feeding off others. So in that sense, if you have set yourself a goal to eventually stop feeding, and are constantly observing yourself - feelings, thoughts etc. - as a first step towards that goal, I think it's a good thing and doesn't qualify as "obsession". If you find yourself second-guessing yourself all the time, which I don't think is a bad thing per se in the Work context, maybe you can focus more on observing your emotions/feelings while self-observing? If I think about it, striving constantly to change our behavior for the benefit of others, which includes being aware of feeding mechanisms, is no "obsession", but something we should aspire to! Osit.

 

[Miss.K]

PS: I think energetic give and take is the same as other forms of give and take, it can be a good thing or a bad thing

Yes, depend the intentions and the considerations. But "good thing or bad thing" depend from the perspective, for example we learn from the "bad things" and if we are abreast about that we can change the bad things into good things, our experience is more fruitful. In the other hand, some times we think we are making "good things", but maybe we do that only for our own personal satisfaction or because that make us feel "good"

Yes it is important to be suspicious of one self about motives whenever something feels good (and also whenever something feels bad, as some are indulging in victim feelings)

Hm maybe one can say that it is important to be compassionately suspicious of one self (selves) at all times :D

I know that cuddling babies, hugging friends, petting animals, etc. releases oxytocin, which is a hormone that makes us feel good. This could be what was happening with you and your grandchild. Doing EE can also have this effect, especially when doing it in a group.

Yes I've tried that with EE once, it was the first time I really succeeded in doing it right, and I woke up the next morning for the first time in....well I remember feeling like that in the spring when waking up in the morning as a kid...so perhaps the first time since childhood, I had blooming spring on the inside, and felt hope (not for anything special, just hope)
But then the next time I did it it made me feel full force how much I am in need of love (like good relationship love) and I know that I'm a chicken and could have solved it by continuing, but I really didn't have the energy to feel so much in need of something so impossible to provide for myself, so I haven't dared to do it since (a couple of times halfhearted yes, but not really)

I have thought about trying to shame myself into doing it by talking about it here (it would embarrass me more to not do it if you were watching me being a chicken) lately I've thought that I would get my moving over (around the 20th of May i move) before I start. Though it is an excuse, I really don't have energy while moving to risk whatever other monsters might surface..

 

[skycsil]

So she needed to use you to feel virtuous about herself as she gave you that (unrequested) hug, and the net result was a transfer of energy from you to her?

I find myself wondering: Had you realized her intent with time to step back and reject her advance, would the energy drain a) not have happened or b) at least been lessened? (Or would having to move to avoid contact inevitably have led to an equivalent net loss?)

I don't know, it took me by surprise because I never pretended to like her. She was in a high position and some (many) students had a boot licking attitude towards her, and I wans't one of them, so it was more like "what? is she holding me? how did that happen? "

Forgot to add, this other teacher did someting "energetically", she was into reiki at the moment but the thing is, she didn't touch me at all, not even moved from her seat, she closed her eyes, breathing deeply, asked me to closed my eyes and relax for a couple of minutes, and so I did. By the time I opened my eyes my energy was restored and she wasn't drained at all (I asked many times because I didn't want to "steal" her energy), so it may be possible that some sort of energy sharing took place. Oddly enough, she was a math teacher.

Another similar experience happened last sunday when I felt energized after having the FOTCM meeting through Skype. I have yet to ask the team if they were drained, I hope I wasn't stealing energy from you, guys!

 

[lilyalic]

I'm not sure how you would define the difference between "addressing the problem" and "sorting through it" - however, I think it's very important to self-observe, to study oneself, as much as possible, as a first step. Only then can we begin to change bad habits like feeding off others. So in that sense, if you have set yourself a goal to eventually stop feeding, and are constantly observing yourself - feelings, thoughts etc. - as a first step towards that goal, I think it's a good thing and doesn't qualify as "obsession". If you find yourself second-guessing yourself all the time, which I don't think is a bad thing per se in the Work context, maybe you can focus more on observing your emotions/feelings while self-observing? If I think about it, striving constantly to change our behavior for the benefit of others, which includes being aware of feeding mechanisms, is no "obsession", but something we should aspire to! Osit.

Maybe I'm just confusing constantly observing yourself with obsessing about it, just that constant thought of "I need to analyze my motivations, I need to watch myself" etc seems to be pretty prevalent in my mind a lot of the time, and curse myself if I ever come out of it.

You're right, it doesn't exactly qualify as obsession, observing your emotions and feeling while self-observing seems a good step. It's just when you're questioning even that, when you have it ingrained about fooling yourself/ lying to yourself etc, that you'll question and doubt it all. However, I find it helps that, if I'm trying to distinguish my motivation behind something, then usually the "thing" that I wouldn't like to think as myself as doing tends to best fit. I.e. if interacting with my partner, and he's talking, and I feel the need to interrupt or, find that I'm not listening - then I know this is because I'm not getting energy food, and hold back and try to purposely listen. This would link in with you saying that we strive to change our behaviors for the benefit of others, which in turn I suppose would benefit ourselves because at the same time we're fighting our programs and slowly, bit by bit, shutting down the machine.

 

[obyvatel]

[quote author=MissK]
I have had the experience too of friends who were very weak, feeding on me (I would feel drained after) but that it wasn't really against my will (I've tried that too) but more as a willing blood transfer so that they wouldn't die. Would that be "wrong"?
[/quote]

It depends on the specific situation. When someone is (or appears to be) in a state of exhaustion and/or suffering, energy naturally tends to flow towards that person when interacting with others. As the situation develops, one can get a sense of whether there is "wallowing" or indulging going on with more and more energy being drawn out. It can also become a 2-way street of energy transfer where the other party assumes the role of the helper/savior/white knight, which has the subtle (or not so subtle) effect of keeping the sufferer in that suffering role as well. The sufferer is disempowered and the helper gets his neurochemical/psychological/social reward of being a "good person" as he provides help to the sufferer. This is a degeneration of what might have started as a natural energy flow process to a mutual feeding dynamic.

When and where to cut the chord if the natural energy flow process does not terminate naturally (or change in a more general sense) is a matter of attention and discernment skills. Per my understanding, the natural energy flow process is similar to how water flows from a higher level to a lower level until some equilibrium is reached. Even if there is no degeneration into the "bad" kind of feeding, if one party genuinely needs a lot more than what the other can provide, then also the chord may need to be cut in some way to prevent excessive drain.

In this context, Gurdjieff's comments about giving are apropos. To give one must first have. Then one must learn how to give. If one does not know how to give, the other will take and there is less real benefit for all concerned from the exchange.

 

[Miss.K]

[quote author=MissK]
I have had the experience too of friends who were very weak, feeding on me (I would feel drained after) but that it wasn't really against my will (I've tried that too) but more as a willing blood transfer so that they wouldn't die. Would that be "wrong"?

It depends on the specific situation. When someone is (or appears to be) in a state of exhaustion and/or suffering, energy naturally tends to flow towards that person when interacting with others. As the situation develops, one can get a sense of whether there is "wallowing" or indulging going on with more and more energy being drawn out. It can also become a 2-way street of energy transfer where the other party assumes the role of the helper/savior/white knight, which has the subtle (or not so subtle) effect of keeping the sufferer in that suffering role as well. The sufferer is disempowered and the helper gets his neurochemical/psychological/social reward of being a "good person" as he provides help to the sufferer. This is a degeneration of what might have started as a natural energy flow process to a mutual feeding dynamic.

When and where to cut the chord if the natural energy flow process does not terminate naturally (or change in a more general sense) is a matter of attention and discernment skills. Per my understanding, the natural energy flow process is similar to how water flows from a higher level to a lower level until some equilibrium is reached. Even if there is no degeneration into the "bad" kind of feeding, if one party genuinely needs a lot more than what the other can provide, then also the chord may need to be cut in some way to prevent excessive drain.

In this context, Gurdjieff's comments about giving are apropos. To give one must first have. Then one must learn how to give. If one does not know how to give, the other will take and there is less real benefit for all concerned from the exchange.
[/quote]

Thanks for the water analogy, it makes sense.

Sometimes I think, that I have believed I was strong enough to regenerate resources, and have given too much away, and ended up in trouble myself (not so much anymore, but a lot when I was younger). Also I've used dealing with the pain of others as a way of avoiding to deal with my own pain. As I started to learn more about how to give I stopped giving so much.

I don't think it is that much to see myself as a savior. My thoughts when asking myself if I want to be a hero savior are something like "I don't really want to be one, it is so much work, and so much responsibility, and people are annoying, and once you've saved them they become egomaniacs in some way from feeling better, so there is no point (people often are a lot nicer when knocked down from their high horse by trouble and pain),"
...hm..though I would maybe like the outfit and the supercool secret underground house that goes with it

I think it is more because I don't like feeling bad, and being fairly empathic, I feel really bad when around people that feel really bad, and so I try to stop my suffering by helping the one causing it..
Same with animals, I see a picture and don't know I see suffering, but only think "wow this is a really beautiful animal, I wanna be friends" and it turns out they have a problem that they need nurturing to get over
Like my cat turned out to have a crushed foot, that didn't show in the picture I first saw, and wasn't described in the add, and I realized that what I had seen that had started nurturing hormones more when looking at her picture than other beautiful kittens, was that she had gone through a lot of pain.

-edit- word that confused meaning removed


added...Both me and my x partner got stronger after breaking up, -there was some unhealthy exchange, but I think I yelled at him more than trying to help, except like situations like I paid the rent where we both lived when I found out he hadn't payed it for 3 months and we were about to be put on the street, (he usually paid the rent and I food and such) and so when he didn't start doing something like finding a job to avoid similar situation in the future, I talked to him about it, and when he ignored me I started yelling, but thats maybe more being a normal girlfriend than a savior, ...dunno

 

[Miss.K]

Sorry, I accidentally posted the same post twice. Not really sure how.

 

[Nienna]

Sorry, I accidentally posted the same post twice. Not really sure how.

I removed the duplicate post. :)