Gurdjieff and "dogs"

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Joseph Azize posted another translation of the recently published French transcripts of Gurdjieff's 1944 Paris talks (which includes many talks previously unpublished). This most recent one is on "dogs", or weaknesses, which must be eradicated in oneself:


M.H. Mr Gurdjieff, sometimes self-remembering bores me. I wait with impatience for the time that I have allocated for the exercise to finish. There is something awful, but I can do nothing about it. Sometimes I feel in myself a wonderful fullness, but at other times, absolutely nothing. I can do nothing, and when I have this state, I do not know to what it is due.

Gurdjieff: This proves that the automatism in you is very strong, that in you are many weaknesses, many dogs, many results of “desalting.” It is necessary to kill them. How is it possible to be bored with something divine?

M.H. Something is lacking in my self-remembering.

Gurdjieff: It is the symptom of the many dirty things in you. It is necessary to clean all that in order to become worthy of this exercise. Put ten times more attention on cleansing yourself inside so that you may become worthy. You are not (worthy now). There are too many dogs. You understand what I call dogs? Different things crystallised in you by life, and by education. All the results play the role of factors to create associations which always rise and take you away. These factors are many. One cannot kill them completely, but it is necessary to make them functions. Today sometimes one and sometimes the other of these factors becomes you me and directs you. The place of Me – so far as a true Me has not yet appeared – it is the head which must hold it, and play the role of Me.

[...]

M.H. Mr Gurdjieff, how can I recognise the dogs, and know which are the worst? And then attack them? And how? Or must I simply continue with the process in general?

Gurdjieff: In general, for each one, the dogs have the habit of living around the centres. It is their place. Factors are crystallised according to the preponderant centres. We have four centres, four localisations, four villages where these dogs live. In one village there are many (dogs), in another there are fewer, and in yet another there are very few. With each person there are more or fewer dogs in each village. These villages are Thought, Feeling, Sensation, and Sex.

Sex is a most important village. One person has more dogs in one village, while another person has more (dogs) in another (village). It depends on the village which is the most peopled.

[The English transcription is here different.]

My advice in general, to kill these dogs, so that they do not disturb you any longer, and have no more power (force) to take your “Me” into their hands, is this – and it is of value for everyone – it is necessary first to liquidate the dogs in the sex village. Afterwards, the others. It is necessary first to liquidate this intimate animal. Afterwards, direct your attention to the other villages.

Knowing this rule, you will search out at which village to continue. But how to tie them up? First you take the task of not allowing these dogs to function as before. At once, hit them on the head! Once you have recognised your enemy, take as your first task to struggle against it. Perhaps it is your true enemy. One after the other you take all these dogs. And then you pass to another village. In this way you will be able little by little to make an end of all your enemies. I repeat, it is not a matter of killing them. What has been crystallised will always be. It can even become a wealth if one uses it as material, as a function. But the dogs must never take the upper hand, they must never have the possibility of taking and fixing your “Me.” Your task will consist in this. And that it true for everyone.

Dr H. Mr Gurdjieff, this sexual function, is it a function and not something that one should reduce and lay low as much as possible?

Gurdjieff: We are not speaking of functions, which are parts of us, but rather of dogs, that is to say, weaknesses around our functions. The functions are the villages. One cannot change them. They are the villages. But the dogs, yes, they can change their breed.
His advice seems to be to identify the weaknesses, and then simply to struggle against them, not to let them manifest. And, ideally, to turn them into 'functions', i.e., to make use of them for a different, better purpose. An example could apply to a particular emotion experienced and manifested in particular situations, maybe anger. That anger, when uncontrolled, can cause interpersonal problems. But it can be an asset when properly controlled and used consciously for a purpose. In other words, our "dogs" or habits can be "redirected", at which point they can change their breed.
 
Interesting stuff. It would be helpful if a concrete example was given - one problem I've always had with G is connecting the abstract, metaphorical advice to specific instances or anecdotes. For example, how does one recognize when anger is a "dog" and not an entirely justifiable reaction to injustice?

Side note: poor dogs. I like dogs; seeing them as something negative seems unjust. The last thing I want to do is kill them. Maybe that's G's cultural background showing itself. In Central Asia dogs are seen as unclean vermin, whereas to my mind they are friendly, loyal companions. Perhaps "rats" would be a better metaphor for the European mind?

Alternatively, the metaphor could be wolves vs dogs. The crystallized negative emotional entities are the wolves; when these are redirected and mastered, the wolves are tamed and become friendly dogs.
 
Interesting stuff. It would be helpful if a concrete example was given - one problem I've always had with G is connecting the abstract, metaphorical advice to specific instances or anecdotes. For example, how does one recognize when anger is a "dog" and not an entirely justifiable reaction to injustice?
Every example will be personal. That's also what networking is for, to help us learn to see the difference. A quick heuristic might be to ask, "Does this habit cause me to lose my head, or do I utilize it consciously?"
Side note: poor dogs. I like dogs; seeing them as something negative seems unjust. The last thing I want to do is kill them. Maybe that's G's cultural background showing itself. In Central Asia dogs are seen as unclean vermin, whereas to my mind they are friendly, loyal companions. Perhaps "rats" would be a better metaphor for the European mind?
Probably a bit of that, but G also loved dogs. Maybe it could also help to think of them as untrained, rabid, unruly dogs. You want to transform them into your companions, with you as the master. Your dogs shouldn't pull you this way and that. They have to heel, and when you need them to, you can unleash them on your foes. (Pretty similar to your wolves/dogs example.)
 
Probably a bit of that, but G also loved dogs. Maybe it could also help to think of them as untrained, rabid, unruly dogs. You want to transform them into your companions, with you as the master. Your dogs shouldn't pull you this way and that. They have to heel, and when you need them to, you can unleash them on your foes. (Pretty similar to your wolves/dogs example.)

That's good. I can't trust anyone who doesn't like dogs.

It's very similar to horse/coach/master metaphor, with the horses as the passions and the master as the self. The horses must be harnessed and under the direction of the master in order for the coach to get anywhere.
 
Joseph Azize posted another translation of the recently published French transcripts of Gurdjieff's 1944 Paris talks (which includes many talks previously unpublished). This most recent one is on "dogs", or weaknesses, which must be eradicated in oneself:



His advice seems to be to identify the weaknesses, and then simply to struggle against them, not to let them manifest. And, ideally, to turn them into 'functions', i.e., to make use of them for a different, better purpose. An example could apply to a particular emotion experienced and manifested in particular situations, maybe anger. That anger, when uncontrolled, can cause interpersonal problems. But it can be an asset when properly controlled and used consciously for a purpose. In other words, our "dogs" or habits can be "redirected", at which point they can change their breed.
I am reading and re-reading the "fourth way" from P.D. Ouspensky where i believe he talks about not dogs but "I" and where the struggling with the "I" can only come after observing for a long time. I haven't read Gurdjieff yet. Would it be the same idea?
 
I am reading and re-reading the "fourth way" from P.D. Ouspensky where i believe he talks about not dogs but "I" and where the struggling with the "I" can only come after observing for a long time. I haven't read Gurdjieff yet. Would it be the same idea?
I never read that book by Ouspensky, but I think the ideas are probably similar: dogs, vs. different "I"s. The formation of one singular "I" would be akin to becoming the "master" of one's "dogs." The basic idea is to have self-control, rather than to be controlled by one's automatic reactions and impulses.
 
Every example will be personal. That's also what networking is for, to help us learn to see the difference. A quick heuristic might be to ask, "Does this habit cause me to lose my head, or do I utilize it consciously?"

Probably a bit of that, but G also loved dogs. Maybe it could also help to think of them as untrained, rabid, unruly dogs. You want to transform them into your companions, with you as the master. Your dogs shouldn't pull you this way and that. They have to heel, and when you need them to, you can unleash them on your foes. (Pretty similar to your wolves/dogs example.)
I like "The Fourth way" from D.P Ouspensky, the gentle way the things are presented although at first they seem easy but are so very complicated to make practice. In the book, it says, and I was able to verify with myself, we are not conscious, WE ARE ASLEEP all the time. How scary that concept is for me. Consciousness isn't used then but "awake", I like this word better because I feel we have no mean to understand yet consciousness and what it implies for us human in 3D.
But to think about it how can anger be conscious, how can it be useful?
 
An appropriately timed display of anger can save one's life, or someone else's.
If you could detach yourself to see the importance of the necessity to display anger, could we call it anger?
I have experienced those moments where anger was expected and displayed but wasn't felt, because consciousness of the moment allow me to be a spectator of my own reactions. It happened to me with anger but also in a scary situation where the mind was fully functioning and assessing the situation for best response. I believe "anger" can't be used appropriately without using control, but you really talked about the "display of anger", that is something else. Thank you
 
Side note: poor dogs. I like dogs; seeing them as something negative seems unjust. The last thing I want to do is kill them. Maybe that's G's cultural background showing itself. In Central Asia dogs are seen as unclean vermin, whereas to my mind they are friendly, loyal companions. Perhaps "rats" would be a better metaphor for the European mind?
Well, in this case Gurdjieff was using the word 'dog' in terms of behavior and specific situation. Here's more on what he said about the true uniqueness of the dog:
 
I understand this as - angry wolfs/ bad dogs are our bad habits, disregulated nervous system, inability to comunicate and expres ourself properly and iracional fear cause unresolved trauma patterns. When we become overhalmed by any trigger - our centers dont function as they suppose to. We can not behave so we attack, violate others and make damadge in both ways.
If we learn through a lot of practise of pausing, observing, recognizing, breathing or some other way of self soothing / regulating how to control our urge to attack/ lose control over (dogs) and maybe make them even more friendly and domesticated - they will be just guarding our boundaries in healthy way. Making our centres work as they should so we can become master of ourself instead poppet on the string.
 
Well, in this case Gurdjieff was using the word 'dog' in terms of behavior and specific situation. Here's more on what he said about the true uniqueness of the dog:
Very interesting. From the article:
“Reason for necessity treat dog and horse with kindness,” he went on, “is because unlike all other animal, and even though he know cannot become man, cannot acquire third brain like man, in his heart all dog and horse who associate with man wish become man. You look at dog or horse and you always see, in eyes, this sadness because know not possible for them, but even so, they wish. This very sad thing to wish for impossible. They wish this because of man. Man corrupts such animals; man almost try to make dog and horse human. You have heard people say ‘my dog almost like human’—they not know they speak near-truth when say this, because is almost truth, but still impossible. Dog and horse seem like human because have this wish. So, Freets,”—as he always pronounced my name—“you remember this important thing. Take good care of animals; always be kind.”
I've often had this intuition, with dogs especially. And I believe there was a session where the C's indicated that in some cases, an animal soul may reincarnate as a human in the next life, and that its life as a companion animal was a sort of training for this. In that sense, such animals are in a similar position to our own - advanced members of one density, poised on the edge of graduation to the next.
 
Could these dogs be passions and things that we use to disassociate in an unhealthy way i.e. things that come to control us or make us forget that our true I is independent of them?
 
Dog training! Right up my alley :lol:

Perhaps information on classical conditioning will be helpful in some circumstances.

Classical conditioning is the pairing of two stimuli and the impact of this pairing is on internal states and involuntary bodily responses.

The reason why I think it will be helpful is because that in most instances as far as I can tell, where we automatically act in anger or fear, a change of internal state comes first. It probably applies to more internal states than those two though. And there are many different weaknesses.

Also, some of the professional trainers pay a lot more attention to classical conditioning in their foundational programs before they introduce operant conditioning to influence the outward or visible forms of the behaviour. This is because internal states can be in conflict with the desired behaviour and that can introduce a lot of problems later. The catch cry is 'Pavlov before Skinner!'

The classic example is Pavlov's dogs.

As the story goes Pavlov had some dogs in a laboratory environment and it was noticed that their states changed in anticipation of being fed. They would start to salivate and focus more on the actions of the attendant.

Food is an unconditioned stimulus - a dog doesn't have to be taught to salivate around food as this is part of it's genetic heritage or cellular memory.

Next before preparing the food, Pavlov rang a bell and had the attendants prepare and deliver the food soon after. The bell, in this instance started out as a neutral stimulus - it had no impact on the state of the dog. After it had been repetitively paired with the unconditioned stimuli, or food, the bell became a conditioned stimuli and elicited the same response as the food.

Neutral stimulus - no impact on internal state.

Unconditioned stimulus - natural and expected impact on internal state.

Conditioned stimulus - one that has been paired with an unconditioned stimulus and now delivers the same impact on the internal state as the unconditioned stimulus.

The significance of the above is that a conditioned stimulus can be largely subconscious. A trainer that I followed described the impact of classical condtioning in some circumstances as: 'An adrenaline based reaction to subconcious stimuli.'

If the word stimuli is now substituted with the word triggers, as they can be interchangeable, then more might find the information helpful. There is adaptive purposes for both negative and positive states, but how often are they actually classically conditioned and happen automatically regardless of the nuances of current circumstances? I'd hazzard a guess that it's more often than we might suppose.

There's an exercise that is given to peeps who have anxiety or panic attacks that is supposed to help ground them in the here and now. It consists of asking them to list what they can see, hear, taste, smell and feel on their skin. That could work for uncovering subconscious triggers to other classically conditioned states then to figure out if the reaction is rational in the given circumstances.

The thing is that if work needs to be done to desensitize or modify a response to a trigger, the exact trigger has to be identified and presented.

Anyways here's one example of a case history we were given to study.

12 month old male German Shepherd started aggressing towards random people and at random times. The particular trainer working with the dog was very keen to isolate the trigger for the aggression. Saving the dog was dependent on this because he felt that if he could isolate the trigger, he could desensitise the dog to it. Otherwise the dog was heading for a dangerous dog order. Detailed notes were collected from all the victims about their appearance, what they were wearing, what they were doing, what perfumes, soaps, aftershave they used etc. A common denominator couldn't be found. So he went back over the notes of the dogs history. There was an incident when the dog was about 5-6 months old where his family had some guests over and they decided to call for pizza delivery, but they forgot to turn the front light on. The pizza guy come into the dark yard and didn't see the dog. The dog barked at him and he lashed out in fear and kicked out at the dog. The people come out of the house and turned the light on and there was seemingly no harm done. Pizza guy was fine and admitted he was just surprised and the dog seemed fine and not hurt seriously. Turned out though that the dogs aggression trigger was the smell of pizza! All the victims had recently eaten pizza! Doggo was successfully counter conditioned and desensitized to the smell of pizza.

So just goes to show that the stimuli that elicits a given response may not necessarily be what we think it is. The stmiulus may also in reality be a neutral stimulus in other contexts.
 
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