Gurdjieff's Approach to Awaken Potential

[Lamp of Orion]

Something that's been on my mind lately..

And that is, how come Gurdjieff has such a daunting view on humanity? I think I understand how bleak things seem and I grasp why that would lead to the depressing outlook, but what was the point in being so harsh? And how come you have inherited his outlook?

I think that whoever cares to listen to him would probably have generally more potential, outliers notwithstanding. Only reason would be to provide a catalyst. But the difference, I think, is that some people will suffer for no good reason, whereas others suffer as a natural consequence to actual progression. I think that, from the beginning of joining this forum, I largely suffered for nothing, as if I were banging my head on a wall. No, I'm not good enough; I will never get behind his; I am irrevocably damaged, tainted, dense. These were the thought processes I had in a nutshell.

Naturally, my comprehension improved with time. Have you ever read a book several times over a good span of time, and noted that you've understood it differently every time? Have you ever been stuck in an emotional state of despair? Seeing the world through such a state..

My point is that, maybe there is a better way. A way to improve the suffering-to-learning ratio. Without feeling like you're damned the whole time for once!

 

[Mikey]

I think that, from the beginning of joining this forum, I largely suffered for nothing, as if I were banging my head on a wall. No, I'm not good enough; I will never get behind his; I am irrevocably damaged, tainted, dense. These were the thought processes I had in a nutshell.

We all are damaged, tainted, dense, to some extent or another. The goal is to be able to perceive more accurately, then adjust for the thinking errors. Once I had the same thoughts as you. Only now I know that I'm not irrevocably damaged ;)

Naturally, my comprehension improved with time. Have you ever read a book several times over a good span of time, and noted that you've understood it differently every time? Have you ever been stuck in an emotional state of despair? Seeing the world through such a state..

Yes to all questions.

My point is that, maybe there is a better way. A way to improve the suffering-to-learning ratio. Without feeling like you're damned the whole time for once!

Suffering cannot be completely eliminated: you can try to delay it, etc., but eventually there will be some kind of suffering. I think the point is to make sense of the suffering, to connect it to a personal goal, so that even if we suffer, we know that it is worth it.

 

[Laura]

Something that's been on my mind lately..

And that is, how come Gurdjieff has such a daunting view on humanity? I think I understand how bleak things seem and I grasp why that would lead to the depressing outlook, but what was the point in being so harsh? And how come you have inherited his outlook?

Close observation and experience and experience.

I think that whoever cares to listen to him would probably have generally more potential, outliers notwithstanding. Only reason would be to provide a catalyst. But the difference, I think, is that some people will suffer for no good reason, whereas others suffer as a natural consequence to actual progression. I think that, from the beginning of joining this forum, I largely suffered for nothing, as if I were banging my head on a wall. No, I'm not good enough; I will never get behind his; I am irrevocably damaged, tainted, dense. These were the thought processes I had in a nutshell.

Naturally, my comprehension improved with time. Have you ever read a book several times over a good span of time, and noted that you've understood it differently every time? Have you ever been stuck in an emotional state of despair? Seeing the world through such a state..

My point is that, maybe there is a better way. A way to improve the suffering-to-learning ratio. Without feeling like you're damned the whole time for once!

I'm not sure that there is a "better way".

Most of what Gurdjieff wrote about psychology has been validated by more recent cognitive science clinical studies. At the same time, evolutionary psychologists who also engage in cognitive science studies would give NO HOPE at all; i.e. we are all machines, FULL STOP.

If you have followed along with the reading over the time you have been here, and especially, most recently, you might know that the division is between the cognitive/evolutionary psychologists who say we are just machines, and the more hopeful view of the Cs and a few others (incl. Gurdjieff even if his cosmology is nuts) that there are possibilities.

By comparing what the Cs have said to Gurdjieff and others, and taking onboard the Stoic analysis of the apostle Paul, adding some recent psychological works that include brain science and cognitive/behavioral work, we have the idea that there is SOME rational basis - not just blind hope - for expanding and activating human potential. But it isn't easy. The main thing required is knowledge applied.

There is no free lunch.

 

[Lamp of Orion]

The worst feeling, which eats away at me, and causes me suffering now, is how most other people are thoroughly blind. One case, which I didn't do strategic disclosure with (but I still worked with what was left..) - I had a discussion with him. We were in a psychiatry lesson, and one thing lead to the other, with the lecturer eventually mentioning that psychiatrists can do better than religion (Christianity, in her case). But then one of my colleagues started saying that he thinks that Islam is more correct than Christianity (with the added disclaimer of "don't take offense to this"). I was taken aback by this claim.. It gave such a terrible impression of Islam and of himself and his supporters that I reacted. But he cannot see how immature his comments were, and there were many. So the other colleague I mentioned earlier, and his likeminded people, do not comprehend me, not even in the slightest.

I acknowledge that human knowledge is finite, a mere speck in the face of what exists. That we, step by step, inch ourselves closer to comprehending reality. That I may defend Islam at one juncture, but attack it in another, not because I have no principles, no moral compass, or am off the rails, but because I do have one, and it incorporates a broader view of reality than they do (while accounting for external consideration). But they, they have the 'truth', period. 'Islam is the solution'. It's just a matter of 'debate' to them. They are irrevocably attached to an ideology, and don't care that they look like they came from the Middle Ages while they're at it. I was accused of being dogmatic and close-minded by the first person, yet I say that we continuously learn, that we build on what was before by grafting broader perspectives to it. That I don't need to absolutely agree or disagree with any one thing. But I'm still a dogmatic, close-minded person as they see it. If only we would agree to disagree, I'd say, but the first person cannot accept this.

Truth, I feel as of late, is precious and fragile.

I can see where you come from. We are so few, and are still on the path, toiling, hoping for a dream..

I've only been a regular at SOTT.NET. I was following the forum more closely a month or so ago, so I have a clue.

 

[Keit]

The worst feeling, which eats away at me, and causes me suffering now, is how most other people are thoroughly blind.

What's for sure, that many people on this forum felt the same way you do. And it is a process to learn how to live with this feeling, not to mention gradually transforming it into an understanding that there is still hope.

Also consider the following two possible factors.

There is a years long research done in New Zealand by Avshalom Caspi and Terrie Moffitt. They also worked with Adrian Raine. It's worth reading the entire article, but here's the part relevant to what you said above:

Moffitt and Caspi offer no grand unified theory of human development: Humans are too complicated, too irrational, to sum up in a principle. What their research gives them is not so much a conclusion about humans as a particular point of view.

"All people are not created equal," Moffitt says. "Some have real gifts and talents, and some have real problems right out of the starting block. Once we accept that, we can't dodge the responsibility for social action."

Watching people's lives unfold over decades, she adds, "obliges compassion."

Laura also said the following in another thread:

I'm really thankful for the Cs' warnings and for Lobaczewski's analysis and description; gads, can you imagine experiencing all this without having some insight and understanding? We would all think that WE were crazy.

Bottom line is, despite our frustration that we have to be so careful about what we say, we also need to remember and appreciate how lucky we are. Lucky that despite all our limitations and our personal crap while growing up, we were still able to find ourselves among friends. We were able to find this forum, where we can share what's on our mind. Lucky that we met the right people at the right time, while many others are still clueless and are limited by all kind of factors. It also doesn't mean that we should stop being careful. A "mindless mob" can still "trump" us, regardless of our new understanding or compassion. But it does take away a lot of the bitterness, and also gives hope. We just need to make sure not to miss the opportunity.

 

[Lamp of Orion]

I have an idea of what we are. Human society is an organism, and we are all but parts of it. We all act out a certain role. And we are the human organism in introspection, seeing its own reflection, and bringing new concepts into the foray. That, I think, is our purpose.

I have hope that truth will eventually prevail. Eventually. I only wish to contribute to it. Personally, I have my hopes on the Wave bringing on events that will force people's eyes awake.

Also, just to add, just because you wrote or said something, it doesn't mean the receiving party will understand you the way you really mean.

 

[Kisito]

I have hope that truth will eventually prevail. Eventually. I only wish to contribute to it. Personally, I have my hopes on the Wave bringing on events that will force people's eyes awake.

And if tomorrow you knew the whole truth, if you knew all things, would you be happier? The ignorant is often happier than the scholar, or the son is often happier than the father. Is this really the truth we are looking for?

It seems to me that it is the intensity that is painful to feel! Intensity is an action that reaches its climax. We seem to have mechanisms that catalyze us towards a certain evolution. These mechanisms are directed by suffering. Does this mean that we should not go to suffering? As an athlete or a soldier, we train to go beyond suffering. They repel suffering, increasing their physical and mental strength. But can these physical and mental forces acquired at the cost of suffering, help our spiritual evolution, or strengthen our mechanicity and our animality?
For me, suffering seems to be an experience, but the experience must make us understand that we must not go to suffering because there does not seem to be a spiritual issue if it remains.

 

[Esprit]

The worst feeling, which eats away at me, and causes me suffering now, is how most other people are thoroughly blind.

There are 2 reasons I can think of why this can be happening. One is self importance. I know I tend to do it a lot. Having close to nobody to talk to except this forum, it's hard to keep everything inside when you clearly see an aspect of someone's life that can be improved with a little bit of knowledge. For me that causes suffering because of a bad teaching habit. My ego wants to be heard.

The other reason I can think of is compassion. When I see myself trying to 'teach' to whoever does'nt want to hear it, I stop myself short and take some distance being more into outside consideration. That is where I witness the suffering of other people (and mine as well) and start feeling compassion for both myself and others. But even if I want to help, more often then not they are not ready, don't want to hear or just don't care.

Like Gurdjieff noted, human is a very lazy creature and one of the reason that is obvious to me why they don't want to hear it is that they will have to make efforts. Thinking and focusing is very demanding to a lot of people that are not used to do it on a regular basis also diet counts for a lot of lack of energy. And after thinking about what you had to share, if they need to change something in their life forget it ! That is way too much work ! A lot of people I see they are crystalized into their habit wich took them a great deal of work to get to that point, no way they are going to take down their precious castle of sand.

It's an habit to constantly challenge your view of the world and bust your bubble of lies, thanks to that forum I have good infos to that on a regular basis.

So yes it's sadning that you have precious information to share and you can't communicate it, looking at another person getting sicker or making bad choices acting on lack of knowledge. We can't decide what is better for them for their own lessons.

 

[T.C.]

I have hope that truth will eventually prevail. Eventually. I only wish to contribute to it. Personally, I have my hopes on the Wave bringing on events that will force people's eyes awake.

Look around you. Those events have been ongoing for years, and many people are opening their eyes. You're obviously in a 'doom and gloom' state, and that's normal - we all have them. But it's colouring your perception of everything. Genuinely open your own eyes and look around you, at people, at the news, at SOTT, at the millions of people engaged in online debate and discussion. Look at the phenomenon of Jordan Peterson, and how many people he's waking up on a daily basis.

There are positives going on right now on planet Earth, to do with truth and awakening. But you can't see what you're not looking for.

Now, of course, there are also many people whose eyes are closed, and they're shutting them tighter all the time. That's an individual choice, and no one should be forced to have their eyes opened, as you put it. If they don't want to take part in existence, they have a right to cease to exist.

 

[Corvus]

Why do people think there would be an outside event that will bring miracle and somehow change the trajectory of humanity, like outside can change what is inside, it can only amplify it, that is probably residue of that social programming happy ending for all and influence of mainstream religion. Who says that truth has to prevail also? It is more of a selfish thinking if it is mine thinking it should be all thinking, and that kind of person has a little awareness in which kind of world he or she is living in, maybe even broader. Maybe concentrating on yourself is a better idea because the question is what can you really change.

 

[Lamp of Orion]

Good points all around, time to meditate on it all.

 

[Lamp of Orion]

I think what matters is to do what we can, without being too attached to our fates. I think, this is the most sane approach I have grokked, perhaps ever. To be grounded, and work with what is presented in front of us, while having faith that the universe will do the rest.

I think that all I've been through had a point after all.

Best regards

 

[Menna]

I recommend looking into Gabor Mate and his work on early childhood trauma. Knowing why we do things and how our patters started is the first step into deconstructing. Personally I feel it is important to deconstruct our bad I's and then build. its not preferred to build on a shaky foundation.

Gabor's work gives insight as to why we are the way we are. His book "when they body says NO" is a good one and was recommended here but I am more talking about his work on childhood trauma.

https://drgabormate.com/book/

There are other books on this site about childhood trauma and how our brains develop early pathways that evolve into habits that are sometimes never broken further carving out the bad habit pathway deeper and deeper into our physiology. I believe the main reason why they are never broken is first they are not identified, the root cause is not identified and the motivation to change is not there as G says we don't like to give up our suffering. Once you realize what is happening and why and then find the tools to change it is ultimately up to you to put in Extra Efforts to change. Sometimes after coming across information it is best to sit with it and contemplate before action let your being soak up the information. You will then know when its time to act. My 2 cents

- Cheers on your journey