How to Deal With a Psychopathic School Administator(s)

[KC Kelly]

My wife and I have a 12 year old son in 7th grade at the local middle school. Our son is ADHD. Now, his mother and I know that we can't depend on our son to always tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth because he's a 12 year old boy who, quite frankly has, does and can embellish accounts to present himself in a more favorable light. In my discernment based upon familiarity with many concepts I have learned from the info available here on this site and elsewhere, he is also a human being with a "growing soul".

P is not a "problem" child. P is not a bad kid. He loves animals and will cry at times when he and his mother drive past a recently killed squirrel on the side of the road. It hurts him to see things like that. He will be engrossed in a video game - yet will pause immediately after spotting an ant crawling across his view to get it to crawl up on his finger so that he can take it outside and place in on a blade of grass. Then a few minutes later, he can become selfish again when asked to clean his room before he can go visit his friend down the street. Nothing extremely unusual about who he is, other than that he is afflicted with ADHD.

He had trouble with a couple of teachers last year, but even more so this year. But the primary cause of this seems to be a couple of the members of the administration more so than him. Our son (I'll refer to him as "P") is being increasingly harrassed by this teacher and principal. They seem to be of the same ilk. I don't want to throw out accusations of psychopath yet things are not hunky-dory with just these two.

P has not been on ADHD medication for 2 years since 5th grade. We (his parents) and P do not like the side-effects of the drugs, which are almost immediately present in him when consistently taking them. The school wants us to give him the drugs because he pays attention better, is less of a distraction, and it just overall makes their job easier to mass control them all at once, rather than cater to specific students who require a specific IEP (Individual Education Program).

We are in the process of keeping notes from incidents that he reports to us, amassing info on ADHD from websites such as WebMD, CDC, etc., culling relevant information about the disorder (some of which appears below) seeking to get a summary to present to the teachers and staff at a meeting we plan to request in the near future. We have had a previous meeting with all of his teachers and the Principal last autumn over these very issues. Most teachers have complied. But not Mrs. J. The following excerpt is a collection of notes and a few incidents that I have typed as of yet, as narrated to me by P. I plan later today to purchase a small digital recorder that we are considering sending with him to school. I would appreciate advice or comments by the administrators and forum members, whosoever shall be so kind, as to whether or not this is a good idea. Why a recorder?

Friday Feb. 29

According to P, while in Mrs. J’s class:

She was giving a math quiz. The students were told they cannot leave the class until finishing the quiz. When the bell rings, P is approached by Mrs. J at which point she says to him for both of them to go out into the hall. Without being told where they were going, she led the way to the office, went in to Mr. B's (vice-principal) office while P waited outside.

While waiting in the main office, P related to us that he honestly didn’t make the connection in his mind as to why he was there and was wondering what was going to happen to him. After a short time in Mr. B's office, Mrs. J walked back out and said to him, “He’s got to cool off before he sees you because he is mad at you!” After a short time, Mr. B appeared to P, and the following description is specific on his part, he beckoned to P with a lowered head, and a condescending gesture with his hand to follow him into his office while not speaking a single word to him. After sitting down, Mr. B says calmly to him, “I’m not going to get on to you, but all I want to know is why you were not doing your work.” P replied that he was shy about speaking up about not understanding certain things and that a few years back something happened in a similar situation and he was told by a teacher something to the effect that he should know this by now, and at that point some of the other students laughed at him. After relating this to Mr. B, he responded to P by telling him something like, “OK, we’re going to try to get past that”.


Again according to P:

On more than one occasion, Mrs. J threatens P with “almost the biggest grin you’ve ever seen” while telling him “if you don’t do [such and such, fill in the blank], then I’m going to send you to Mr. B.” He is learning to recognize intimidation when he experiences it, and he is of the opinion that she enjoys intimidating him.
Also, he is rarely allowed to go to the bathroom or get a drink during Mrs. J’s class when he asks. He has specifically related that this is not the case in any of his other classes or relating to any of his other teachers. (According to his 504 Plan, he should be allowed to do this at least once every class, every day.) After 10 minutes or so when he asked again, she responded, again rather sarcastically, “What does N - O spell?”


Another incident that he related to us.

Earlier in the school year, my wife and I attended a conference discussing the implementation of the 504 plan, after which, P’s curriculum should have been altered by having his work level lowered by the teachers in all his classes. One day, after forgetting his pencil, he asked if he could use his break to go to his locker to get it. She replied, “Oh sure, you don’t have to do anything that the other students have to do, so go ahead and go to your locker or do whatever you have to do.” Said quite sarcastically by her in his opinion, and he’s a 12 year old who recognizes and understands to some degree, facial expressions, gestures and what it means when someone says something to him that is sarcastic. (Just because you’re ADHD doesn’t mean that I have to treat you any differently than the other students.)

(See WebMD Info on ADHD)


According to P:

Earlier this week (late Feb.) in Com Arts, he admitted to having been disciplined for not paying attention in class, he lost his train of thought and was sent to the principal’s office. In a conference room, Mr. W (principal) again raising his voice at him asking him why he was disrespecting Mrs. T. (At this point, I would like to interject to ask why Mr. W is disrespecting P by raising his voice and intimidating him - do unto others, you know - and for essentially expressing the symptoms of being afflicted with a learning disability!)

P did not respond to him because as related to us, regardless of what he responds, Mr. W ceases to raise his voice and responds to him in an intimidating manner. Soon after Mrs. T enters the conference room, P apologizes to her, (keep in mind, he’s apologizing for being afflicted with a learning disability, in essence), asks to stay after school to make up work, and she agrees. Just before P is allowed to leave the room, Mr. W says to him, according to P’s own accounting and in his own words, “Next time I won’t be so nice!”

On one occasion this school year P was sent to the principal’s office. According to him, he was crying for about 15 minutes and had difficulty stopping because he was thinking about possible disciplinary measures coming from his own parents. While in Mr. B’s office, Mr. W, while raising his voice and leaning over his desk in an intimidating manner said to him, “Will you stop crying!”. At which point P’s crying became even more severe than it had been before this outburst, which should be perfectly understandable to anyone who understands even the basics of human psychology and interaction.

In relating this to my wife and I, we were rather taken aback and it seemed difficult to believe. I mean, is this a case of one of his imaginative stories being passed off as the truth? Due to the repercussions of a former stealing episode, he confessed to having learned his lesson about lying also and that as difficult as it may be for us to believe, he is not lying about something so important.

The above quoted section is , as I say, just notes I have taken and have presented here to show just what kind of behavior is being exhibited toward P from basically just one teacher (Mrs. J), and Mr. W (principal). We have asked him about any kind of problem whatsoever that he may be having with other teachers and he just says "its her and him", more or less. We want to record this teacher or administrator speaking to him in this manner and then when we gather "enough" evidence, we will request a meeting with them.

The main issue is that he is being continually disciplined and/or punished with staying after school or not being allowed to participate in any of the "fun" activities that may be going on several occasions and the reason is: FOR NOT PAYING ATTENTION IN CLASS!


See a snippet of
_http://www.webmd.com/add-adhd-symptoms?page=2

Inattention


A person with ADHD may have some or all of the following symptoms:

Difficulty paying attention to details or prone to making careless mistakes in
school or other activities. Work is often messy and careless.

Easily distracted by irrelevant stimuli and frequently interrupt ongoing tasks to
attend to trivial noises or events that are usually ignored by others.

Inability to sustain attention on tasks or activities.

Difficulty finishing schoolwork or paperwork or performing tasks that require
attention.

Frequent shift from one uncompleted activity to another.

Procrastination.

Work habits may be disorganized.

Forgetful in daily activities (for example, missing appointments, forgetting to
bring lunch).

Failure to complete tasks like homework or chores.

Compare with corroborating snippets from link here:
_http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/symptom.htm

Symptoms of ADHD


Inattention

Often does not give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, work, or other activities.

Often has trouble keeping attention on tasks or play activities.

Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly.

Often does not follow instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace (not due to oppositional behavior or failure to understand
instructions).

Often has trouble organizing activities.

Often avoids, dislikes, or doesn't want to do things that take a lot of mental effort for a long period of time (such as schoolwork or homework).

Often loses things needed for tasks and activities (e.g. toys, school assignments, pencils, books, or tools).

Is often easily distracted.

Is often forgetful in daily activities.

Now, this is pretty simple and obvious stuff here. Not rocket science, as the saying goes. We have been more than patient, disciplined, keeping our emotions under control in dealing with primarily these two people throughout this school year. We don't want to put P into harm's way (The General Law) any more than is absolutely necessary. When we request this meeting over these issues, we want to be as prepared as possible.

We figured it this way: we send a recorder with him, and if he specifically informed Mrs. J that, say for instance, he's been having difficulty in remembering some things in class, and that recording them and playing some back in the evenings would help him to stay caught up. It would also let her know in a non-threatening way that she had better watch what she says to him from now on, because she may never be able to tell when she's being taped. It is legal for a 7th grader to do this, isn't it?

Here is a situation in which, basically a child is being disciplined for BEING AFFLICTED WITH A LEARNING DISORDER. Something obviously isn't right. Any advice is welcome and greatly appreciated by my son, my wife and myself.

 

[Cyre2067]

I'd say trust your kid and send him with a recorder. The whole scenario immediately reminded me of this story I read on the newsvine:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4352430&page=1

Crafty Mom Catches Teacher on Tape

A Houston mother, who said her daughter was well-behaved at home, was worried about what was going on in her child's classroom because the girl had been suspended four times for bad behavior.

So, Diana Mijares decided to secretly bug her daughter's backpack and was shocked to hear what was on the tape.

"It made us concerned," Mijares said on "Good Morning America" today. "It was enough and we needed answers."

Megan Mijares' digital tape recorded mostly mundane moments at Memorial Elementary School's prekindergarten class, but then it captured the teacher yelling at the group of 4- and 5-year-olds. All of it happened without Megan's or her teacher's knowledge.

"You're just a bad kid," the teacher says on the six-hour tape. "You're mean to me, so I get to be mean to you."

The teacher, who was not identified, continues to harshly scold the children.

"You are all just stupid kids. I swear to God," the teacher says. "You are just all stupid kids."

Mijares said at that point the teacher was responding to a boy who was moving slowly.

"I believe one of the students was taking a little bit longer to come into the classroom," Mijares said.

In response to the allegations, the Houston Independent School District is investigating the case and the school's principal has reassigned the teacher.

Mijares worries that action will not be enough.

"My fear is that if she's reassigned that maybe possibly this could happen to other children," said Mijares, who added she only was trying to protect the children.

"They are learning bad manners and they don't need this," Mijares said.

The teacher has a history of parental complaints. Another mother told ABC News Houston affiliate KTRK that the teacher yelled at her young son and then slapped his face in December.

Houston school officials confirmed a slapping allegation was reported to the principal. After an investigation, the principal found evidence the teacher slapped a student and she was disciplined.

So, Diana Mijares decided to secretly bug her daughter's backpack and was shocked to hear what was on the tape.

"It made us concerned," Mijares said on "Good Morning America" today. "It was enough and we needed answers."

Megan Mijares' digital tape recorded mostly mundane moments at Memorial Elementary School's prekindergarten class, but then it captured the teacher yelling at the group of 4- and 5-year-olds. All of it happened without Megan's or her teacher's knowledge.

"You're just a bad kid," the teacher says on the six-hour tape. "You're mean to me, so I get to be mean to you."

The teacher, who was not identified, continues to harshly scold the children.

"You are all just stupid kids. I swear to God," the teacher says. "You are just all stupid kids."

Mijares said at that point the teacher was responding to a boy who was moving slowly.

"I believe one of the students was taking a little bit longer to come into the classroom," Mijares said.

In response to the allegations, the Houston Independent School District is investigating the case and the school's principal has reassigned the teacher.

Mijares worries that action will not be enough.

"My fear is that if she's reassigned that maybe possibly this could happen to other children," said Mijares, who added she only was trying to protect the children.

"They are learning bad manners and they don't need this," Mijares said.

The teacher has a history of parental complaints. Another mother told ABC News Houston affiliate KTRK that the teacher yelled at her young son and then slapped his face in December.

Houston school officials confirmed a slapping allegation was reported to the principal. After an investigation, the principal found evidence the teacher slapped a student and she was disciplined.

From what I'm getting this kind of interaction is all too common in American public schools. Some teachers/administration seem to enjoy the power they exert over children. I noticed it myself in high school, and graduating in 2001 - it wasn't all that long ago. I don't know if you saw the article that was on sott awhile ago - it was an excerpt from the book The Wildest Colts Make the Best Horses, and it's all about kids with ADD & ADHD and how medicating them is a horrible way to 'treat' their 'illness'. Here's the link:

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/148783-The-Wildest-Colts-Make-the-Best-Horses

Anyway I hope that helps and good luck! Keep that anger below the neck!

 

[Mr. Premise]

Does your son have an IEP (Individual Education Plan)? If he has ADHD you can have the school evaluate him and if he gets diagnosed as such, they have to tailor a plan for him to give him equal access to education, which in his case means they would have to take his learning style into account. It's federal law.

Also, they CANNOT force you to medicate him and I would strongly advise you not to let them prescribe him Ritalin. But if he is diagnosed they will suggest it because it will make THEIR lives easier.

 

[webglider]

As a mainstream teacher who had to incorporat "special education" students into my class, I do have to say it's a challenge. However, THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THE ADULTS IN THIS SITUATION TO TREAT YOUR CHILD THIS WAY.

They sound very frustrated, out of control, and are taking these feelings out on your
son. They may be concerned about the rating for their school which could be shut down and privatized under NCLB. Everyone is under pressure these days in education land, and lots of nastiness ensues.

Have you ever heard of Mel Levine? He is a pediatrician who also had some learning challenges when he was younger. As a result, He started a foundation to help children who learn differently andwrote a book called "A Mind at a Time" which identifies many different learning styles and teaches parents and children strategies for coping with them.

http://www.allkindsofminds.org/index.aspx

One strategy that I used was with some ADD students was to privately come up with a secret signal that I would use if I saw the student not paying attention. First I'd call his name and then tug at a strand of hair, or cough, or execute whatever signal we decided upon.

I would have to do this several times during a class, but I didn't have to yell, or even say anything but the student's name. They would understand immediately and focus.

Maybe you could suggest this as a strategy to his teachers.

An IEP may be helpful, but please, first do research. It's my impression that once a child gets a label, it may actually hurt their education. All different types of "special ed" kids are put together, but may actually need different types of learning experiences. Sometimes they are just warehoused and not taught anything in the higher grades.

Before you have him labeled, find out exactly what type of programs are available for him.

Does your son's school district mandate special ed training for teachers as a requirement for licensing? Perhaps you could lobby for that to happen.

Do you have a network of other parents in a similar situation?

Can you get a medical professional to mandate a tape recorder for your son? It would be harder for the school to fight it if there is a medical note on file.

In NYC some parents have sued to have the city pay for private school for their children if no suitable environment could be found in a public school for their child.

 

[MetaDjinn]

How to Deal With a Psychopathic School Administator(s)

Don't? Just throwing this out there for anyone. My wife and I have four children, ages 3 through 10. We do not do "school" in any way, shape or form. If interest is present and circumstances allow it, consider taking your children out of school. For those who have to keep your children in school, I can only imagine how incredibly hard it all is; I don't know how you do it.

 

[mudrabbit]

When my son was school age, I spent a great deal of time asking him all kinds of questions about what he learned, then we'd spend an hour doing homework and UN-learning.

There came times when this would come into play. Some of his teachers thought his questions and statements were refreshing, and often he did very well in their classes. But there were some teachers that considered him a "problem student" or "unteachable" When these situations arose, I would make an appointment with the teacher, requesting that either the principal or vice principal be present. In most cases, it was an issue that the teacher had because he questioned certain things being taught to him.

A big part of this is being active in your child's education. One has to ask questions and make regular visits to the school to meet with the teachers. Give them a list of phone numbers where you can be reached, and INSIST that they contact you if something negative involves your child. Stand there and make sure that the office personel WRITES it in their file. In one middle school, I took the folder and wrote with a bold, black sharpie on the front of the folder, "Call me for ANYTHING concerning my child." and put all phone numbers that I could be contacted at. When something would arise (which sometimes did) and I found out about it after the fact, this little move made it very easy for me to hold them accountable.

When they KNOW you are going to take an active position in your child's education, often that alone will nip any issues in the bud.

One thing I did learn. That the teachers aren't always aware of the "rules" governing public schools, and some who are, are not willing to discuss them with you, because in some states, they are in the parent's and student's favor. Call the local school board and ask questions, and leave no department untouched. One area of interest where I learned much is the Superintendent of Security.

A rule of thumb:
If a teacher doesn't recognize you right off when you appear in their presence, you have not done enough to make your presence known.

Peg

P.S. My son was one of those children that teachers suggested Ritalin for. This was at a time when the doses were approximately 7 times higher than they are now. Augmenting his diet fixed the issues. Back then, they didn't have ADD or ADHD, these children were called hyperactive.

 

[ArdVan]

My son was one of those children that teachers suggested Ritalin for.

When I was young I was hyperactive. My father gave me ordinary "black tea" in the morning what adults normally use to stay awake. The tea may have a reverse effect on children and may be a mild tranquilizer without side effects. I don't know if this still works because you can have "ice tea" everywhere today.

 

[adam7117]

Our son is ADHD.

Hmmm… how shall I put it – there is no such thing as AD(H)D.

Your child is suffering psychological problems because you are feeding him amphetamines and because he is growing up. I am also failing to understand how an aggressive stand with the school board can solve a problem with an unruly child.

Are you catching my drift here? SOTT has tons of articles on this fake disease - and methods of treatment. I strongly recommend you begin re-examining your basic assumptions now.

 

[sojournstone]

How to Deal With a Psychopathic School Administator(s)

Don't? Just throwing this out there for anyone. My wife and I have four children, ages 3 through 10. We do not do "school" in any way, shape or form. If interest is present and circumstances allow it, consider taking your children out of school. For those who have to keep your children in school, I can only imagine how incredibly hard it all is; I don't know how you do it.

"Don't" is the best advice here. I have five children whose ages are 23, 21, 19, 19, and 12 1/2. Not one of them has ever been institutionalized in a 'school' setting. Best decision of my entire life.

 

[KC Kelly]

Thank you, all of you who have taken the time to respond with advice and/or information about our "situation". I would like to respond to some of your posts also. I usually get about 3 to maybe 5 hours a day in the morning to be on here as I work evenings. One of the things I thought about as I was amassing data and info on this whole escapade, was the following lines from Pink Floyd's "Another Brick in the Wall" from now over a quarter of a century ago. Apparently they could already see it then. Sad.

When we grew up and went to school, there were certain teachers who would hurt the children any way they could.
By pouring their derision upon anything we did, exposing every weakness, however carefully hidden by the kid.

Thanks Cyre, for the link. You have led the way to my wife's initiation into the SOTT Forum. She sees me on here a lot, but after showing her a quick look at my post, and now the responses, she's going to be checking some of these links and doing some reading and researching too, while I'm at work in the evening. Keeping the anger below the neck is difficult as I have already lost battles this way over this whole mess. I regroup and each time I remember earlier than I did the last time not to "lose it". Remember oneself. Thanks.

Does your son have an IEP (Individual Education Plan)? If he has ADHD you can have the school evaluate him and if he gets diagnosed as such, they have to tailor a plan for him to give him equal access to education, which in his case means they would have to take his learning style into account. It's federal law.

Also, they CANNOT force you to medicate him and I would strongly advise you not to let them prescribe him Ritalin. But if he is diagnosed they will suggest it because it will make THEIR lives easier.

The school has evaluated him - we have all the requsite paperwork - he doesn't meet the qualifications for an IEP. He does qualify for a 504 plan, which is not as intensified, but as I wrote, most of his teachers honor it. And if they do it is enough of a reduced work load that he can handle it. Not Mrs. J - she gives him the "same as everyone else" according to P. After some quick cramming lessons on here by checking and reading up on links, we are going to try another solution other than Ritalin. We've been down that road before and don't want to do it again, regardless of how much easier it makes their teaching lives. Thank You, DJH.

Have you ever heard of Mel Levine? He is a pediatrician who also had some learning challenges when he was younger. As a result, He started a foundation to help children who learn differently andwrote a book called "A Mind at a Time" which identifies many different learning styles and teaches parents and children strategies for coping with them.

No, my wife and I have not heard of him, but we will be looking into this and much else found here ASAP for us. Thanks webglider.

Can you get a medical professional to mandate a tape recorder for your son? It would be harder for the school to fight it if there is a medical note on file.

This hadn't even occurred to us. We have a very good relationship with our family MD and I don't think it would be a problem at all to acquire documentation in order for him to carry a recorder. Our only concern is, well,....he loses stuff so we will have to figure out a way to "attach" one to him. :/

Don't? Just throwing this out there for anyone. My wife and I have four children, ages 3 through 10. We do not do "school" in any way, shape or form. If interest is present and circumstances allow it, consider taking your children out of school. For those who have to keep your children in school, I can only imagine how incredibly hard it all is; I don't know how you do it.

We have talked about doing this, but never really gave it serious consideration....until oh, recently, lately, in the neighborhood of kind of about....now. Things have gotten a lot worse than we ever thought they would be by the time he were to graduate in 5 years! We would like to ask-would you recommend any sites or links, or particular authors, say, of books on home schooling versus ones that one should avoid to achieve the level of success that you and your family seem to be enjoying? Anything provided would be greatly appreciated, Thanks.

P.S. My son was one of those children that teachers suggested Ritalin for. This was at a time when the doses were approximately 7 times higher than they are now. Augmenting his diet fixed the issues. Back then, they didn't have ADD or ADHD, these children were called hyperactive.

Yeah, I don't know how many times my wife and I have noticed and discussed the huge increase in the numbers of kids like this. And his diet is OUR fault and we know it. We have been too lenient in giving in to far too much junk that it simply not good for him. I have been weak and asleep in this regard for too long and I know his current diet is not healthy for him. Maybe a small "i" or a group of them doesn't want to be the "bad guy" to blame for forcing a change in his diet on him when "they" know he won't like it. I've got to toughen up. Thanks Peg.

When they KNOW you are going to take an active position in your child's education, often that alone will nip any issues in the bud.

Yep, and this should become more apparent to the administration with each passing day. We'll make sure of it. We hope a recorder of some type will act as a pre-emptive measure against their continued agression as long as they are aware of him "possibly" carrying one. And it should be perceived by a "normal" teacher as non-threatening....I wonder how a psychopath teacher will perceive one?

Thank all once again for everything!

Kelly

 

[KC Kelly]

As an aside , I thought I would copy and paste here an email I sent last fall to his counselor. We (again his mother, P, and I) decided it would be best for him to discontinue or"quit" the football team - depending on one's perspective - after only 2 games of an 8 game season. Why? A bully teammate and his "entourage".


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Mr. A - Thank you for the email in regards to P . I would welcome a chance for Coach Wall and myself to visit you in person. At your convenience please give me a call about a suitable time to get together.

Dave Anderson

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: K A [mailto:kansasman.1960@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 2:44 PM
To: Dave A. Anderson
Subject: P leaving football team



Attn: Dave Anderson


Hello, Mr.. Anderson . I am K A, P's father. I would like to share some thoughts with you on the matter of P's leaving the football team.

Since the beginning of camp and continuing up until now, P has related to his mother and myself several incidents regarding being bullied by other student/athletes before, during and after practices and/or games. Certainly not earth-shattering news considering the context of the situation. Some of these incidents I am sure you are aware of, and others probably not.. The point is, it has been an ongoing situation from the beginning of the season. We can't say with certainty that everything he has told us is 100% accurate, yet some of these things have no doubt been taking place.

I do quite a lot of reading and have learned much delving into many different subjects and disciplines. I would like to share some information with you that I found relevant to this situation, albeit disturbing. It is from a book by Robert D. Hare, PhD. entitled Without Conscience - The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us. His book is not by any means the only one to take on such matters, as there are many, many others. The following excerpts seem to have relevance to this particular situation.

In what is to follow, all bold type is my emphasis, with my comments in [brackets]. Hare discusses the matter of psychopathy manifesting in children, relating the following:

"To many people, the very idea of psychopathy in childhood is inconceivable. Yet we have learned that elements of this personality disorder first become evident at a very early age....

"Many people feel uncomfortable applying the term psychopath to children. They cite ethical and practical problems with pinning what amounts to a pejorative label on a youngster. But clinical experience and empirical research clearly indicate that the raw materials of the disorder can and do exist among children. Psychopathy does not suddenly spring, unannounced, into existence in adulthood...

"Although all children begin their development unrestrained by social boundaries, certain children remain stubbornly immune to socializing pressures. They are inexplicably "different" from normal children--more difficult, willful, aggressive, and deceitful; harder to "relate to" or get close to; less susceptible to influence and instruction, and always testing the limits of social tolerance [e.g. seeing how often they can get away with literally kicking the tail end of another student/athlete and pressuring him not to "snitch"about it]. In the early school-age years certain hallmarks emphasize the divergence from normal development:


--repetitive, casual and seemingly thoughtless lying;

--apparent indifference to, or inability to understand the feelings, expectations or pain of others [as evidenced by kicking, pushing, ridiculing, etc];

--defiance of parents, teachers [and coaches], and rules;

--continually in trouble, and unresponsive to reprimands and threats of punishment [will continue to perform extra laps, push-ups, etc., in lieu of refraining from bullying];

--petty theft from other children and parents;

--persistent aggression, bullying, and fighting [yes, bullying is psychopathological--its not normal];

--a pattern of hurting or killing animals;

--vandalism and arson;


"Most of the children who end up as adult psychopaths [should] come to the attention of teachers and counselors at a very early age, and it is essential that these professionals understand the nature of the problem they are faced with. If intervention is to have any chance of succeeding, it will have to occur early in chilhood. By adolescence, the chances of changing the behavioral patterns of the budding psychopath are slim...

"Unfortunately, many of the professionals who deal with these children do not confront the problem head-on, for a variety of reasons. Some take a purely behavioral approach, preferring to treat specific behaviors--aggression, stealing, and so forth-- rather than a personality disorder with its complex combinations of traits and symptoms. ...till others find it difficult to imagine that the behaviors and symptoms they see in their young clients are not simply exaggerated forms of normal behavior, the result of inadequate parenting or poor social conditioning, and therefore treatable. All kids are egocentric, deceitful, and manipulative to a degree--a simple matter of immaturity, they argue--much to the dismay of [others] who daily must deal with a problem that refuses to go away [e.g. P getting kicked in the tail end--literally, mind you-- and pushed around in the locker room on a more or less regular basis] and even worsens...

"I agree that it is no light matter to apply psychological labels to children or to adults [no argument here, believe me]. [N]o diagnosis is free from error or misapplication by careless or incompetent clinicians. [...] However, do not lose sight of the problem; a distinct syndrome of personality traits and behaviors that spells long-term trouble, no matter how one refers to it [or whether or not one acknowledges it]...

And this:

"As the signs of social breakdown grow more insistent, we no longer have the luxury of ignoring the presence of psychopathy in certain children. [...] Today our social institutions--our schools, courts, mental health clinics--confront the crisis every day in a thousand ways, and the blindfold against the reality of psychopathy is still in place [or rather for some an extreme lack of awareness of the disorder]. Our only hope is bringing to bear what we know about the disorder as early as possible. Otherwise, we will continue applying Band-Aids to a life-threatening disease, and the social crisis will worsen...

And finally this:

"If, as I believe, our society is moving in the direction of permitting, reinforcing, and in some instances actually valuing some of the traits listed in the Psychopathy Checklist--traits such as impulsivity [e.g. kicking other smaller kids in the tail on a whim], irresponsibility, lack of remorse [e.g. even after kicking other smaller kids in the tail end when they get in their way], and so on--our schools may be evolving into microcosms of a "camouflage society," [maybe what we would refer to, at least in western Johnson County as "cliques"] where true psychopaths can hide out, pursuing their destructive, self-gratifying ways and endangering the general student population. ...[O]ur society may be not only fascinated but increasingly tolerant of the psychopathic personality [evidenced by victimized student/athletes being admonished to just "suck it up" or "toughen up" or "get over it" by their administrators after having just been bullied by a potentially psychopathic individual]. [...] Even more frightening is the possibility that "cool" but vicious psychopaths will become twisted role models...where little value is placed on honesty, fair play, and concern for the welfare of others [e.g. as long as they display considerable athletic talent and can help the school team win, some behaviors may be "overlooked'']...

Now, I would like to clarify: I am NOT claiming that there is one or more psychopaths on the football team, and that that is the reason why we have decided to have P quit the team. I simply wish to raise awareness as to some explanations for certain psychological dynamics that take place relative to P's interactions with some members of the team, and little more.

After several discussions between P, my wife B and I, we have decided that the best, and certainly safest course of action at this time is for P to discontinue playing on the football team. Whether or not he's tough enough, or whether he lacks the intestinal fortitude to "suck it up" during a grueling practice session or whatever, is irrelevant. It is because my wife and I recognize certain clusters of behavior patterns exhibited by other student/athletes that, by whatever name one wishes to refer to them, or whether one is aware of them at all, are potentially dangerous to the welfare of our son if he continues with the team in its current environment. And also, quite frankly he just doesn't need the hassle of dealing with this ongoing situation every day, and as his parents, neither do we.

We wish to extend our thanks to the coaches for allowing P an opportunity to participate for the time that he was a part of the team. We wish the coaches and team the best in the future.


Best regards,


K A


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Coincidentally, the team never won another game for the rest of the season. I kind of started getting the feeling that maybe they didn't like me as much after that. :D

P.S. Edited to protect the innocent. Also, a lot of the bold type didn't show up in the cut job, but.....

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

Your child is suffering psychological problems because you are feeding him amphetamines and because he is growing up. I am also failing to understand how an aggressive stand with the school board can solve a problem with an unruly child.

Maybe it's a way to make sure the wrong solution is not applied to the problem making things worse? You say "unruly" but there are many ways a child can be "unruly" and for many different reasons. A kid full of self-importance who is just disrupting class and causing trouble is not the same as a kid with "ADD" that simply has trouble paying attention and focusing. And the problem may not be fully with the child either - here we're talking about a mind-numbing busy-work education designed to hurt people more than anything. It is no surprise that some people, who otherwise are eager to truly learn, would have a serious "problem" with the way things are done in our public education - which is not THEIR problem, but the problem of the system's way of doing things.

So again, I think it's very important to understand the situation from all aspects and address it as best you can. You cannot expect the school or the teachers to handle this responsibly and appropriately because more often than not they are a big part of the problem, and historically they are not "sensitive" the unique situation a kid is going through but instead throw everyone into a broad category of "unruly" and try to "suppress/punish" the unrulyness.

As such, I totally agree that if you do choose to put your child into a public education system, it's important to be very aware of exactly what your child goes through and to actively be involved in all parts of it. You can't just trust the school to act in your child's best interest from the standpoint of his growth, learning, and psychological health. They couldn't do that even if they truly wanted to because of collective ignorance. So as a parent that hopefully has a clue, it really is your responsibility to act in the best interest of your child, which includes not throwing him into a mind-numbing brainwashing and conditioning institution without at least trying to correct and mitigate the damage it would otherwise do to your child on all levels, osit.

 

[KC Kelly]

You say "unruly" but there are many ways a child can be "unruly" and for many different reasons. A kid full of self-importance who is just disrupting class and causing trouble is not the same as a kid with "ADD" that simply has trouble paying attention and focusing. And the problem may not be fully with the child either - here we're talking about a mind-numbing busy-work education designed to hurt people more than anything.

Excellent point, SAO. That's the first thought that came to mind when I saw the word "unruly". He's not unruly, he is inattentive and distracted among other things, and probably quite a bit confused to boot. Not to say that unruly kids are or aren't in the majority. I don't know the answer to that. I do know my son pretty well, and he isn't the prototypical "unruly student" by any means.

You cannot expect the school or the teachers to handle this responsibly and appropriately because more often than not they are a big part of the problem, and historically they are not "sensitive" the unique situation a kid is going through but instead throw everyone into a broad category of "unruly" and try to "suppress/punish" the unrulyness.

Yes, this is a very accurate take on their definition of "unruliness" as evidenced by the methods they employ for "dealing" with it.

You can't just trust the school to act in your child's best interest from the standpoint of his growth, learning, and psychological health. They couldn't do that even if they truly wanted to because of collective ignorance.

All the reason why this site is so valuable, and I am thankful beyond expression to all who contribute here. I will start researching links and books provided.

Thanks all!

Kelly

 

[MetaDjinn]

We would like to ask-would you recommend any sites or links, or particular authors, say, of books on home schooling versus ones that one should avoid to achieve the level of success that you and your family seem to be enjoying? Anything provided would be greatly appreciated

I could recommend sites and authors, but I doubt that they would have the same effect on you that they did on me. What I read was read a time when it was necessary for me to read it. Whithout going into to much detail, there was much synchronicity between thoughts and events at that time in our lives. I would also like to clarify that we do not "home school" our children. Here is a term that may or may not be familiar to you -"unschooling". This is what we do (or is it a not-doing?). There are an infinite amout of interpretations and implementations of what school, home-school, or un-school is. Our family belongs to some local groups and there is often disagreement inside groups and between certain groups. As a start, do a web search on "unschooling", read what you find and think about it.

Here is the only thing that I would offer to you because no matter what I say or what you read, you have to look inside and make decisions for yourself:

1. Make a list of terms that you would attach to the idea of school - terms that are deemed beneficial like "progress", "learning", "socalization", "achievement", etc.
2. Look up the definition for each term.
3. Map the terms to the experience of you and your family
4. Ask yourself if the things that you believe are derived from the schooling experience are actually derived, according to your experience
5. Answer honestly and try to determine the causes of any mismatch
6. Decide if something needs to change and how far you are willing to go in order to make the change if possible
7. Repeat

Here is an example of what I am talking about:
1. Invariably, our experience has been that when someone realizes that our children are not schooled, their first response will be "Yes, I guess I can see your point, but what about socialization"? "Socialization" is a term that is deemed to be beneficial and attained by the schooling experience.
2.

so·cial·ize [ sṓshə lz ] (past and past participle so·cial·ized, present participle so·cial·iz·ing, 3rd person present singular so·cial·iz·es)


verb

Definition:

1. intransitive verb take part in social activities: to take part in social activities, or behave in a friendly way to others
a group of friends who like to socialize after work


2. transitive verb train somebody to be social: to give somebody the skills required for functioning successfully in society or in a particular society
socialize a child


3. transitive verb make something publicly owned: to place something under public ownership or control

3. Our experience has been that traditional schooling imposes an artifical social hierarchy upon children that sets up most of the experiences for the remainder of their life. When we attended schools in the 70's and 80's, "ability grouping" was the model. Looking back today, everyone I know is still in ther respective "group"; rarely has one jumped up or down a level. Children in each group would "be have in a friendly way to others" if the "others" were in their group.

We do not define "functioning successfully in society" as obeying everything and everything imposed upon you by a superior nor do we define it as "being like everyone else". To us, that is what school was - obey or suffer... the dynamics of those in power against those without power. Punishment, ridicule, shame. This is not the "society" that I experience as an adult (on the surface, dig deeper and it is the same). I was talking to a coworker in the elevator the other day and he said "yeah... but sometimes you HAVE to give a kid a smack to let them kow what's right and what's wrong". I asked him how he would feel i I, as his superior in our little company, gave him a smack for letting his tasks slip on the timeline of our work. Why is it so accepted that kids only respond to violence?

Now, the third definiton cited sounds more in line with our experience - " to place something under public ownership or control". Yes?

4. As seen above, the notion of the beneficial "socialization" obtained from schooling does not coincide with our experience. However, for some, it may. And school may work fine for them.

5. From the conversations that we have had with family memebers, strangers, schooled children/adults or complete strangers, it appears to me the the mismatch stems from nothing more than "if you repeat something enough, enough people will believe it". Most do not question the belief against the experience.

6. Obviously, what deemed necessary to change was the act of sending our children to school or practicing schoolish things at home. Beyond that ans specific to "socialization", we felt it necessary to provide a wide variety of experiences with a wide variety of people - you know, "socializing" in the true sense. My children have been to more places in the owrld than I have. Their friends and play span all age groups, cultures and social statuses. They are treated with respect and as equals. I value their opinion. I allow them to pursue their interests at any given time. All is learning - all is lessons.

7. We follow the same for all things in our life, so there is no real seperation between living and learning.


I hope I didn't ramble too much....

Thanks,
Chris

 

[mudrabbit]

Yeah, I don't know how many times my wife and I have noticed and discussed the huge increase in the numbers of kids like this. And his diet is OUR fault and we know it. We have been too lenient in giving in to far too much junk that it simply not good for him. I have been weak and asleep in this regard for too long and I know his current diet is not healthy for him. Maybe a small "i" or a group of them doesn't want to be the "bad guy" to blame for forcing a change in his diet on him when "they" know he won't like it. I've got to toughen up. Thanks Peg.

Those things that caused issues for my son were the chemicals and dyes. It used to be much easier to read labels on the foods we bought, but now, with the attempt at hiding certain chemicals, they have simply changed the names.

A good rule of thumb to follow, if it is hard to pronounce, it ain't food.
Margarine is a fake food, use rendered butter instead.
The suffix "ose" is usually referring to a refined sugar. Dextrose, fructose, lactose, etc. Limit his intake of these.
Anything hydrolized is not good.
Pre-packaged foods are notorious for having all these chemicals and these days, GMOs to boot. I know that on a tough schedule it's hard to prepare foods from scratch. I used to take Sundays to prepare foods, then freeze them. Made my own frozen dinners, which don't take much more time to cook than anything pre-packaged.

The book Sugar Blues, by William Dufty is quite educational about how sugars (among other things) mess with our bodies and minds.

http://www.amazon.com/Sugar-Blues-William-Dufty/dp/0446343129/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204657256&sr=1-1

If you decide to augment your diet, then it's best to do it a little at a time. And best that the whole family participate so as to set the example. We did it all at once, and went through terrible withdrawals from all the junk and sugar. It's really like a drug, and the headaches and nausea are no fun at all.

Peg