important messages from music

abstract

Dagobah Resident
when i realized that our reality is a symbolic one, (took a while to grasp) i started searching for symbols in music, or at least in the lyrics and language of it. reading someone's lyrics is like getting to look inside their mind to see what is there. most people don't know the lyrics to the songs they hear. they know like a chorus or something. when you actually dig in to the lyrics and try to find out about them, you examine and absorb them, repeat them, and consider them, you realize that (and this is just my thought) that a lot of musicians tend to have a similar mindset to how they approach living life. it seems a musician is born with the near unconscious, but burning desire to experience creation in a direct way. if the universe is capable of being expressed with numbers, and music is also built on numbers, so it would seem to me that music is like a direct interaction with the cosmos via math. just a thought. maybe someone can expand/add dimension to this topic...
 
Hello, i'm from Spain so when i listen english songs i don't use to understand the lyrics... al least I have listen the songs several times.... and even in this case there are some phrases that scape to me. Lately i have been looking for some song's lyrics, the most of them are musical bands I have been listening for years. And it's really curious about the lyrics because according to the knowledge... in this case for example only reading the C's Transcriptions, the meaning of the things can completely change. I guess that in some cases the unconscious ideas can be expresed in the creativity tasks, for example writting the lyric for a song.

Some examples:

1-Hammerfall "Threshold"

Lyric

_http://www.coveralia.com/letras/threshold-hammerfall.php

Song

_http://www.lastfm.es/music/HammerFall/_/Threshold

_____________

2-Hammerfall "Hero's return"

Lyric

_http://www.quedeletras.com/letra-cancion-heros-return-bajar-79211/disco-one-crimson-night/hammerfall-heros-return.html

Song

_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOFgwbSnPWs


______________

Hammerfall "Rebel inside"

Lyric

_http://www.coveralia.com/letras/rebel-inside-hammerfall.php

Song

_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wAqJyu7zwQ



___________________

Hammerfall "Carved in stone"

Lyric

_http://www.coveralia.com/letras/carved-in-stone-hammerfall.php

Song

_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppQzAOUbh2k


______________

Queen "The Miracle"

Lyric

_http://www.coveralia.com/letras/the-miracle-queen.php

Song

_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrADb7CHDsc


__________

etc....

There are some spanish groups too.



I think in music like one more example, where all things can be expresed..... there are songs negative and positive, and a lot of diferent things can be showed throught the music.
 
abstract said:
if the universe is capable of being expressed with numbers, and music is also built on numbers, so it would seem to me that music is like a direct interaction with the cosmos via math. just a thought. maybe someone can expand/add dimension to this topic...

Hi abstract,

I'm a musician and pretty much illiterate in all but basic math, so it doesn't seem that way to me. Some musicians may be more mathematical in their approach than others, but by and large musicians tend to be a pretty right brained lot. Describing or understanding music in mathematical terms is like describing the taste of an apple by analyzing it's chemical content, IMHO.

Music can change people's lives, as in the quote below. While math in the service of science has certainly changed our physical lives, I've never heard of it changing anyone's life in a spiritual sense. If it has, I'd love to hear about it.

As a songwriter, I'd have to say that it's not necessarily about the lyrics either. For me lyrics are mostly a way to keep the mind and emotions occupied for a few minutes while I get my message across in other ways, through the vibrations of my voice.

Session Date: October 22nd 2008

A: You should sing more. Clear melodies can change the vibration of your physical structure.

[snip]

A: When the voice within is in harmony with the voice without, the angels will sing with you.

[snip]

A: Music is a good mode of expression for most people. But there are some who can change others lives with their heart and voice: A******.

Q: (L) Any last questions? (Ark) I just wanted to make a comment about how this music is good for everybody. It depends on what you have in your heart and mind. Remember F****! (laughter)

A: You hit the nail on the bald head! Goodbye.

{The referenced individual "F****" is completely bald.}
 
I'm a musician and pretty much illiterate in all but basic math, so it doesn't seem that way to me. Some musicians may be more mathematical in their approach than others, but by and large musicians tend to be a pretty right brained lot. Describing or understanding music in mathematical terms is like describing the taste of an apple by analyzing it's chemical content, IMHO.

Hmmm...I can see your point of view, and a very intelligent analogy I might add, but I must disagree. I think whether anyone realizes it or not, music requires usage of numbers, that's what I believe it is built on.
For instance, music requires counting. It requires time signatures, different note durations (division, anyone?), sheet music (if you use it) is your "graph" so to speak, of a song. Music requires timing.
Although we all know that "time" is not what we percieve it, time requires counting which requires numbers.

Even though one could play soley by ear his whole life and go by "feel" with timing, that doesn't change the other ways it can be expressed, such as numbers.

As a songwriter, I'd have to say that it's not necessarily about the lyrics either. For me lyrics are mostly a way to keep the mind and emotions occupied for a few minutes while I get my message across in other ways, through the vibrations of my voice.

For a long time actually, I never gave a crap about what a song said at all, i just wanted energy and guitars and everything, 'cause i'm a guitar player. Now, I do pay attention to lyrics, I pay attention to every detail i can possibly analyze with my mind, all the instruments in a mix. IMO, lyrics need to say something important, I hate songs where there's no real point to the lyrics. You are right, a vocalist needs to convey things with the tone of the voice as well, needs to be on pitch and everything too. :)
 
It's the old story of the blind men and the elephant, we're just touching different parts of the elephant. It's also the chicken and the egg, I'm advocating for the chicken :D

I studied music as a kid, I can read and write but I play almost entirely by ear. If I'm onstage or at a jam session and the monitor sound is bad so that I can't hear myself play I'm lost. I go into a zone where I don't even know what key I'm playing in without looking at my fingers if I have to think about it. It also doesn't help to intellectually understand timing if it's not integrated into you body, tapping your foot.

Mozart claimed that all of his music came to him fully formed and complete, all he had to do was transcribe it. One of the bebop jazz greats, forget who, was asked if he could read music. He said "not enough to hurt me".

While I'm on musician jokes:
Charlie Parker goes into a diner in the middle of the night and orders a piece of pie. The waitress says "I'm sorry sir, the pie is gone." Bird says "crazy, I'll take two" :cool2:
 
wanderer said:
I'm a musician and pretty much illiterate in all but basic math, so it doesn't seem that way to me. Some musicians may be more mathematical in their approach than others, but by and large musicians tend to be a pretty right brained lot. Describing or understanding music in mathematical terms is like describing the taste of an apple by analyzing it's chemical content


It is perhaps too simplistic to think of any activity as either strictly right-brained or left-brained.

Doing math relies heavily on holistic (spatial temporal) reasoning, when you sort of "see" the formulas and structures intuitively, and that's the right brain domain. Only then the left-brain activity (analytical, logical reasoning) comes into play to test and prove what you are seeing.

Music also relies very much on spatial reasoning, in particular anything that has to do with rhythm and pitch training. Math abilities are definitely enhanced by musical training, there were multiple studies on both adults and children to show that. Many mathematicians were\are accomplished musicians and appreciate music. Although, I don't think that they "describe music in mathematical sense"; rather, they just like both music and math simultaneously, and if they connect them, it's probably more like hearing music in the formulas.

It doesn't however seem to work the other way around: not all musicians are good at math. This is probably because music has a much wider appeal and relies on other aspects of human talent, too.



While math in the service of science has certainly changed our physical lives, I've never heard of it changing anyone's life in a spiritual sense. If it has, I'd love to hear about it.


Many scientists began to ask serious questions about life, God, and delve into metaphysics. Isaac Newton, as one example.
 
Hildegarda said:
wanderer said:
I'm a musician and pretty much illiterate in all but basic math, so it doesn't seem that way to me. Some musicians may be more mathematical in their approach than others, but by and large musicians tend to be a pretty right brained lot. Describing or understanding music in mathematical terms is like describing the taste of an apple by analyzing it's chemical content


It is perhaps too simplistic to think of any activity as either strictly right-brained or left-brained.

I agree that's a little simplistic. the potential power when performing music seems to be that it involves the use of all the (lower) centers. The moving center is used to play the instrument or to exercise the voice - muscle memory, intricate and controlled movement etc; there is activity from the intellectual center (learning the piano is an intellectual workout!), and also there is an emotional component which is engaged when performing.

So perhaps, the 'magic' lies in the synchronisation of all 3 centers within the same directed / conscious activity?
 
I like what Plato said in regards to messages :

"Poets utter great and wise things which they do not themselves understand. " ;)
 
wanderer said:
abstract said:
if the universe is capable of being expressed with numbers, and music is also built on numbers, so it would seem to me that music is like a direct interaction with the cosmos via math. just a thought. maybe someone can expand/add dimension to this topic...

Hi abstract,

I'm a musician and pretty much illiterate in all but basic math, so it doesn't seem that way to me. Some musicians may be more mathematical in their approach than others, but by and large musicians tend to be a pretty right brained lot. Describing or understanding music in mathematical terms is like describing the taste of an apple by analyzing it's chemical content, IMHO.

I agree with Abstract here
if the universe is capable of being expressed with numbers, and music is also built on numbers, so it would seem to me that music is like a direct interaction with the cosmos via math.

But I also understand that this can be a subliminal thing. You don't have to know math to DO it. There was a story on SOTT some time back about a kid (or group of people, can't remember) who perceive numbers as colors or textures. He (or they) had extraordinary math abilities in a very narrow range, and they couldn't explain how it processed in their minds. There are some things about numbers and math that are "feel-able".

Keep in mind, I'm talking from the position of a math challenged person. I am not math challenged because of lack of ability, but simply lack of time and focus. Most of my attention has been elsewhere for much of my life so I don't have all the formulas, short-cuts, ideas and symbols "to hand" in my head, so to say. But when Ark has a math problem, he often explains the context to me, and then states the problem and I'm quite able to understand it and even offer suggestions.

Speaking of Ark - he is more a mathematician than a physicist. He belongs to a particular class of physicists: theoretical/mathematical physicists. (Many physicists are very weak in math and it is not considered a failing in their field). What I notice is that mathematics, for Ark, is a sort of spiritual/emotional thing. He lives most of his life in realms that the majority of people can never enter, much less imagine. After a time of working very hard on math, he'll sit down at his keyboard here in the office or go downstairs to the piano, and play... out of his head. He can't read music but what he plays sounds very much like Chopin improvising. If he goes for a long time without playing, he gets rusty, but it comes back in half an hour or so.

Now, I USED to play the piano fairly competently (with a lot of practice) but after my auto accident in 1994 (head and neck injuries), I literally lost the ability. I also lost certain speech abilities and had difficulty swallowing for a couple of years after. I can swallow better now, I've re-wired most of the lost speech problems, and SOME of the music has come back, but I don't really have time to practice 5 hours a day like I used to. Funny thing is that I CAN play snatches of this and that, some of it very complex, and some very simple pieces seem beyond me. Go figure.

We really enjoyed having Craig Pruess here because he is a fantastic performer though I was rather surprised to learn that, despite his extensive knowledge of music and math, he reads music very poorly! I can't play a note without reading!


wanderer said:
Music can change people's lives, as in the quote below. While math in the service of science has certainly changed our physical lives, I've never heard of it changing anyone's life in a spiritual sense. If it has, I'd love to hear about it.

Watch the BBC special "Dangerous Knowledge".

In this one-off documentary, David Malone looks at four brilliant mathematicians - Georg Cantor, Ludwig Boltzmann, Kurt Gödel and Alan Turing - whose genius has profoundly affected us, but which tragically drove them insane and eventually led to them all committing suicide.

Obviously, it didn't change their lives for the better, but math had a profound effect on their spiritual state. I'm thinking it can have a similar effect for the good ... and perhaps Ark is an example of that?

wanderer said:
As a songwriter, I'd have to say that it's not necessarily about the lyrics either. For me lyrics are mostly a way to keep the mind and emotions occupied for a few minutes while I get my message across in other ways, through the vibrations of my voice.

One extremely interesting thing I have noted over the past year is this: there are a couple individuals I know who, for years, could not carry a tune in a strong box much less a paper bag. These individuals also had some deep-rooted emotional issues that were partly related to brain chemistry/inflammation problems. Well, once they started on the detox diet, got their brain chemicals balanced, then worked through the emotional stuff (over a period of several years), all of a sudden, they can carry a tune!

Darndest thing I've ever seen.
 
I found out the name of the guy I mentioned above: Daniel Tammet. From Wikipedia:

Experiencing numbers as colours or sensations is a well-documented form of synesthesia, but the detail and specificity of Tammet's mental imagery of numbers are unusual. In his mind, he says, each integer up to 10,000 has its own unique shape, colour, texture and feel. He can intuitively "see" results of calculations as synaesthetic landscapes without using conscious mental effort, and can "sense" whether a number is prime or composite. He has described his visual image of 289 as particularly ugly, 333 as particularly attractive, and pi as beautiful. The number 6 apparently has no distinct image.[1][2] Tammet has described 25 as energetic and the "kind of number you would invite to a party".[3] Tammet not only verbally describes these visions, but has also created artwork: including a watercolour painting of Pi.

Tammet was the subject of a documentary in the UK entitled The Boy With The Incredible Brain, which was first broadcast on the British television channel Four on 23 May 2005.[4] The documentary showed his meeting with Kim Peek, a world famous savant. Peek is shown hugging Tammet telling him that "Some day you will be as great as I am", to which Tammet replies "That was a wonderful compliment, what an aspiration to have!"
 
Interesting post, abstract. I hope you don't mind if I look at a couple of parts.


abstract said:
reading someone's lyrics is like getting to look inside their mind to see what is there.

Yeah, and I've found that to be both a positive and negative experience. I rarely listen to music with lyrics because I prefer to experience my favorite music as symbolic expressions of emotional and creative flows, undefined by others thoughts. That way, my imagination and thinking are stimulated. Exceptions are when a creative person is transcribing both their inner music and the associated thoughts and feelings as a single unit. As a musician, you probably know that there's a lot of good music out there that is creatively inspired and then ruined by grafting on words and phrases just to make a song, that's "catchy or more memorable or more marketable."


abstract said:
when you actually dig in to the lyrics and try to find out about them, you examine and absorb them, repeat them, and consider them, you realize that (and this is just my thought) that a lot of musicians tend to have a similar mindset to how they approach living life. it seems a musician is born with the near unconscious, but burning desire to experience creation in a direct way.

I agree, and I see it as certain individuals being born with this burning desire (or ability) and becoming musicians, or painters, sculpters, etc in order to express this experience. I believe my son, who is a musician in a local band, qualifies in this regard.


abstract said:
if the universe is capable of being expressed with numbers, and music is also built on numbers, so it would seem to me that music is like a direct interaction with the cosmos via math. just a thought. maybe someone can expand/add dimension to this topic...

I see what you're saying. Looking at it from the perspective of symbolic logic as Lewis Carroll writes here (and we are in a symbolic reality, right?), I see "patterns and partial-patterns" being the Genus from which the music, numbers and math can be seen as subclasses with regard to the issue under consideration. In this way, I can see a relationship between the different 'subjects' that allows each 'subject' to express the same unity, but in different ways.

I think maybe, I'm trying to say that instead of seeing "music is like a direct interaction with the cosmos via math," I see music and math as different ways of expressing a person's direct experience of a creative process of the Universe that has, is, or will happen at some time and in some respect, somewhere in the Universe - and that it's all, in some way, music to the loving soul.


These are all just my personal thoughts on the matter. I didn't want to leave you with an impression that I was trying to "correct" anything. :)

You may, or may not, find the following interesting:


----------------------------------------------------------------------

The idea of patterns and partial-patterns (of which the words fractal and multi-fractal is used as a synonym) being the foundation of music is relatively new, I think.

Benoit Mandelbrot (the father of fractal geometry) suggested to Harlan Brothers that he undertake a mathematically rigorous treatment of fractal music. Brothers published a paper entitled "Structural Scaling in Bach’s Cello Suite No. 3," which appeared in the journal Fractals (Vol. 15, No. 1, 2007; pages 89-95). The article reveals musical structure related to the Cantor set and helps to establish a mathematical foundation for the classification of fractal music. A new article, entitled "Intervallic Scaling in the Bach Cello Suites," will appear in the journal this fall (that was in 2004 I think). The paper describes a novel and robust approach to establishing the existence of power-laws in music.
As with graphics, music can exhibit a wide variety of scaling behavior. In the course of exploring the role of power laws in music, Brothers has found many types of scaling including self-similarity with respect to duration, pitch, interval, motif, and structure. He has also written compositions to illustrate some of these scaling characteristics.
Source: _http://www.brotherstechnology.com/math/fractal-music.html
 
Laura said:
I found out the name of the guy I mentioned above: Daniel Tammet. From Wikipedia:

Experiencing numbers as colours or sensations is a well-documented form of synesthesia, but the detail and specificity of Tammet's mental imagery of numbers are unusual. In his mind, he says, each integer up to 10,000 has its own unique shape, colour, texture and feel. He can intuitively "see" results of calculations as synaesthetic landscapes without using conscious mental effort, and can "sense" whether a number is prime or composite. He has described his visual image of 289 as particularly ugly, 333 as particularly attractive, and pi as beautiful. The number 6 apparently has no distinct image.[1][2] Tammet has described 25 as energetic and the "kind of number you would invite to a party".[3] Tammet not only verbally describes these visions, but has also created artwork: including a watercolour painting of Pi.

Tammet was the subject of a documentary in the UK entitled The Boy With The Incredible Brain, which was first broadcast on the British television channel Four on 23 May 2005.[4] The documentary showed his meeting with Kim Peek, a world famous savant. Peek is shown hugging Tammet telling him that "Some day you will be as great as I am", to which Tammet replies "That was a wonderful compliment, what an aspiration to have!"

For those interested in this documentary it is located here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4913196365903075662#

I watched this a while ago and it was pretty impressive how he could do all of these super human things such as memorize pi to some huge number of decimal places, memorize a chess board quickly, and learn a language in about a week.

Also the C's have said that we may be able to develop these types of abilities so it is pretty exciting:

Session 4 July 2009 said:
Q: (A**) Will we have superpowers like this idiot savant guy... (Allen) He's not an idiot savant, just a savant. (A**) Okay, the savant guy... (C) Daniel Tammet.

A: Some will. That is much like 4D experience.

Q: (A**) So we'll be able to like feel and see numbers?

A: Hear colors...

Q: (A**) That's cool! (C) So does that mean that he's kind of an advanced person or...

A: Not necessarily advanced, but just the luck of the genes so to say. That sort of thing, and much else, is coded in many and now and then it activates.

Q: (A**) So, it was activated by his seizure? It did something to his brain?

A: Partly, yes.

Q: (A**) Cool, I want some of that man! (C) Yeah... (A*l) You want a seizure?! (A**) He can learn a language in a week!

A: So will you one day.

Q: (A**) I will?? I need that!

A: Patience pays.

Q: (C) Can similar abilities be gained by practicing?

A: Not really.
 
Masamune said:
For those interested in this documentary it is located here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4913196365903075662#

Thanks, Masamune. I enjoyed that!
 
Hildegarda said:
It is perhaps too simplistic to think of any activity as either strictly right-brained or left-brained.

Doing math relies heavily on holistic (spatial temporal) reasoning, when you sort of "see" the formulas and structures intuitively, and that's the right brain domain. Only then the left-brain activity (analytical, logical reasoning) comes into play to test and prove what you are seeing.

Music also relies very much on spatial reasoning, in particular anything that has to do with rhythm and pitch training. Math abilities are definitely enhanced by musical training, there were multiple studies on both adults and children to show that. Many mathematicians were\are accomplished musicians and appreciate music. Although, I don't think that they "describe music in mathematical sense"; rather, they just like both music and math simultaneously, and if they connect them, it's probably more like hearing music in the formulas.

It struck me as odd to see the word spatial used in the context of music, which has no concrete physical manifestation, no physical space. Not being familiar with the term spacial reasoning, I did some quick research to get up to speed.

Another theory addressing spatial intelligence is called the mental model theory,
developed by Johnson-Laird and Byrne. According to the mental model theory, first, the person constructs a mental model of the premises of the problem. Second, the person draws a conclusion from the model that is informative.

The ability to construct a mental model of something abstract and hold it in your mind for prolonged periods of time in order to manipulate it is necessary capability for composing music, writing software (my day job) and, you are saying, math. I've found that many programmers are also musicians.

Nomad said:
the potential power when performing music seems to be that it involves the use of all the (lower) centers. The moving center is used to play the instrument or to exercise the voice - muscle memory, intricate and controlled movement etc; there is activity from the intellectual center (learning the piano is an intellectual workout!), and also there is an emotional component which is engaged when performing.

For me intellectual center involvement while performing is a detriment. The intellectual work needs to be done beforehand (practice) and internalized so that it's automatic and doesn't divert too much conscious effort. I've always thought of it as drilling it into the subconscious, so that my hands "know" where to go without me having to think about it.

Nomad said:
So perhaps, the 'magic' lies in the synchronisation of all 3 centers within the same directed / conscious activity?

Yes, that's the magic. I think of my performances as a type of shamanism, so magic is the perfect word IMO. I'm trying to get all our centers (mine and the audiences) vibrating on the same wavelength so that we can experience a glimpse of a higher reality. Rhythm for the moving center, melody for the emotional center, lyrics for the intellectual center.

Laura said:
Speaking of Ark - he is more a mathematician than a physicist. He belongs to a particular class of physicists: theoretical/mathematical physicists. (Many physicists are very weak in math and it is not considered a failing in their field). What I notice is that mathematics, for Ark, is a sort of spiritual/emotional thing. He lives most of his life in realms that the majority of people can never enter, much less imagine. After a time of working very hard on math, he'll sit down at his keyboard here in the office or go downstairs to the piano, and play... out of his head. He can't read music but what he plays sounds very much like Chopin improvising. If he goes for a long time without playing, he gets rusty, but it comes back in half an hour or so.

Can you make some recordings please? :D

Laura said:
Watch the BBC special "Dangerous Knowledge".

I definitely will.

Laura said:
Obviously, it didn't change their lives for the better, but math had a profound effect on their spiritual state. I'm thinking it can have a similar effect for the good ... and perhaps Ark is an example of that?

I confess I was being a little provocative. If there's a connection between math and spiritual development this would be the place to learn about it. A lot of musicians have committed suicide too, either overtly or through their lifestyle choices.

Back in the '60s I thought that music could change the world, and I wanted to be a part of that. Then everything changed, the promise of the new consciousness that seemed to be awakening faded and the music turned into disco. I stopped playing music for 20 years, and only started playing again 10 years ago. I've talked to several musicians my age who stopped playing around the same time. Now it seems that it wasn't that music couldn't change the world, but who was controlling it for what purpose.

It was great to read the Cs comments about the power of singing and the voice. The first time around I got really messed up trying to figure out the music business and "success". Now the old music business is dying and success is the music business is a non-issue for an old guy like me, so it make things simpler. I see my music as a service to others now, and it's humbling to discover how great a service that could be if I ever get my act together :/
 
Back
Top Bottom