Investment in food production - co-operative???

[Michal]

Hi,
[Do not know where to put this topic so chose this one but if mods think that there is better place please move.]

I was thinking about idea of investing in food production for some time know. Wetiko is stopping me from action :).
I do not really have money as with my bank loan for our flat we are kind of living on credit so whenever we have more money I always consider it as not enough and basically that it should go to the bank to pay it off as soon as possible. However it looks like that it will take some more time to get rid of this burden. OK. Anyway I have some and if notihing happens I may live with my family for two years for what we got if we both loose our incomes etc.

I just see that this money is laying there because I am cautios and affraid of touching them becasue this is our security. But I think that small investment in something that will be for sure no loss will be another security approach for uncertain financial system in the future.

OK. So what was I thinking:
1. Invest money in buying own pigs or cows or other animals which I normally eat. Especially fat pigs which may give a lot of lard. There are some species which are more fat than others.

2. This is even more important: find farmer who is known and willing to keep my pigs / cows in his farm. Maybe organic, maybe simply good person which I may agree something and agreement will be kept. For example now in Poland there is bad situation with pork. Farmers have a lot of difficulties in selling in good prices and some jurnalists and also farmers are seeing bad times comming and likely is that some of their businesses are going to cease. Means that big producers will enter the market. Funny thing is that selling price offered to the farmers at least few months ago was law due to export market in Russia closed and overproduction in our local market but prices in shops especially in supermarkets have not moved at all. So there are people who raise pigs and who know how to do it but they are thretened know because of economic situation which favours big producers.

3. Make formal agreement - because You never know especially if it is not Your family or Your friend.

Idea is that I buy pigs that are mine. I give them for custody to the farmer I know and pay him his due for keeping them feeding them etc. They are mine so whenever I want them I get them. I will finish later - I have to go to work now.

 

[LQB]

Idea is that I buy pigs that are mine. I give them for custody to the farmer I know and pay him his due for keeping them feeding them etc. They are mine so whenever I want them I get them. I will finish later - I have to go to work now.

Mikel - it might work out better for you and the farmer(s) to leave the pigs/livestock to the farmer in favor of creating more of a direct local market for his animal produce. This would look more like a local CSA (community supported agriculture) where you help bring the customer base to the farmer. This could be income-producing for yourself as well. Your efforts might be enhanced by providing educational materials (via hardcopy, web, etc) locally. The gap that you would be filling (from the farmer's perspective) is the direct local marketing that he may not have the time or skill for.

 

[Michal]

Hi LQB, thanks for feedback. I am not sure what You say? That if they will not be owners than it will be not good? Why?

I am thinking of having ownership of livestock but management is in hands of farmer. So actually I wish to own my food from the beginning. This could be also community owned.
I think that this brings benefit such that farmer is not able to speculate with the meat price and that I know what I own and that he will not sell it to somebody else because we are going to be bound by agreement.

For myself this would be some kind of formal contract however I think this is first difficulty that small farmers are not willing to touch formal paper agreements because they are in general affraid of it.
Maybe challenge is to make agreement in language that is clear for all not like standard agreements.

Other thing is to find farmers who will be willing to cooperate. I have spoken with some but they were not aware of grass fed and keeping the grains out of diet. Using atibiotics is also thing that I am not sure if that is understood. Anyway a lot of them are aware at least of "fake meat" provided by big producers and chemicals which are needed to keep that meat availabel for sell so in that sens there is some awareness.

I need somebody "from family" and nearby that will only make sens then.
Currently I live in Germany so here I am not really aware of market and local possibilities but in Poland in my area it was strange to find that on villages nearby farmers are basically not keeping pigs anymore. It is not profitable because of meat price in shops everyone can buy much cheaper meat in shop.

So. Other thing I was thinking about making co-operative of consumers to give signal to the market that there are people wlling to buy more expensive meat. Poeple who are aware of quality of meat and raising pigs/cattle etc and buying from local farmers.

After few talks also with my friends I just thought that people do not belive that they may sell meat on higher price, be profitable and give good quality food. They do not believe. So this kind of group organized group of consumers would be like promise for future market and that it makes sens.

Need to finish again...

 

[kanader]

Hi,
[Do not know where to put this topic so chose this one but if mods think that there is better place please move.]

I was thinking about idea of investing in food production for some time know. Wetiko is stopping me from action :).
I do not really have money as with my bank loan for our flat we are kind of living on credit so whenever we have more money I always consider it as not enough and basically that it should go to the bank to pay it off as soon as possible. However it looks like that it will take some more time to get rid of this burden. OK. Anyway I have some and if notihing happens I may live with my family for two years for what we got if we both loose our incomes etc.

I just see that this money is laying there because I am cautios and affraid of touching them becasue this is our security. But I think that small investment in something that will be for sure no loss will be another security approach for uncertain financial system in the future.

OK. So what was I thinking:
1. Invest money in buying own pigs or cows or other animals which I normally eat. Especially fat pigs which may give a lot of lard. There are some species which are more fat than others.

2. This is even more important: find farmer who is known and willing to keep my pigs / cows in his farm. Maybe organic, maybe simply good person which I may agree something and agreement will be kept. For example now in Poland there is bad situation with pork. Farmers have a lot of difficulties in selling in good prices and some jurnalists and also farmers are seeing bad times comming and likely is that some of their businesses are going to cease. Means that big producers will enter the market. Funny thing is that selling price offered to the farmers at least few months ago was law due to export market in Russia closed and overproduction in our local market but prices in shops especially in supermarkets have not moved at all. So there are people who raise pigs and who know how to do it but they are thretened know because of economic situation which favours big producers.

3. Make formal agreement - because You never know especially if it is not Your family or Your friend.

Idea is that I buy pigs that are mine. I give them for custody to the farmer I know and pay him his due for keeping them feeding them etc. They are mine so whenever I want them I get them. I will finish later - I have to go to work now.

Hi Mikel,

the idea itself is not bad, but it could be very complicated and...pricey.

First you need to find a farmer (preferably one not too far from you) doing Bio production.You will have to make sure that his production will be kept that way, at least for your pigs. As an individual, you should be aware that the price you will be paying for the Pigs would be higher that those of a producers/re-seller. then the pigs themselves need to be taken care of, which means more cost. they are certainly more issues that can arise, which i probably not mention here, but my point here is to make you understand that doing this alone could cost you a lot of money and time. On the other hand, if you know people dedicated like you who are willing to join the adventure...

My 2 cents

 

[LQB]

So. Other thing I was thinking about making co-operative of consumers to give signal to the market that there are people wlling to buy more expensive meat. Poeple who are aware of quality of meat and raising pigs/cattle etc and buying from local farmers.

After few talks also with my friends I just thought that people do not belive that they may sell meat on higher price, be profitable and give good quality food. They do not believe. So this kind of group organized group of consumers would be like promise for future market and that it makes sens.

Yes, this is along the lines of what I was thinking - to help create the market that the farmer needs to produce healthy animals. This is why an educational component might help to get a more steady stream of dedicated customers.

What you suggest about owning some of the livestock yourself might be a good way to jumpstart the program, especially if the farmer(s) are unwilling, but you will need to do the marketing/education anyway (if there is no current demand).

 

[Gawan]

Hi Mikel,

you could look around of course if someone is dedicated to do something like that. And do I understand you correctly that it is an investment for hard times? The problem I see, if problems occur economically and these pigs are on the property of the farmer it may be hard to get them back and even to raise and feed them, cause in these extreme situations contracts may mean nothing anymore and pigs are very important for survival then. So maybe you could invest some money in food stock and canning?

 

[Michal]

Hi Guys,
Yes Gawan. This was the way I was thinking. Preper's way :). But not only. Availability of grass fed meat is still scarce and awareness of people about antibiotics consumption in this business is growing BUT :) ... there is huge area for work.

We know that something is wrong here with chickens. We notice that by the work of our intestines and how much we "emit gasses". We are still not done with candida and this one thing makes it more difficult to complete - source of good meat.

I say here about meat because as a food I think is a hardest thing to get now. Vegetables and fruits are more available I think due to vegetarian influence.

True. In hard times contracts may be forgotten. ... I was also thinking about that and this is one of the points which I wanted to get some feedback. Is there any way to make such a contract more secured?

As it comes to marketing - You are right LQB - it is much needed and I do not have much idea about it. I have some let say but no education in that matter.

Hi kanader and thanks for Your 2 cent - appreciated. Yes it could be more pricey than buying in supermarket and it is pricey when one compares prices of grass fed to "normal" meat already. For example in Rotterdam or in Le Havre where I was living for a short time I was spending quite a money on good meat but it had market for sure.

There are places where this market is not existing at all. A lot of places.

I was thinking like that:
1. Consumer organization - let the market know that their is a need. Let consumers know that they are not alone in their need. I was thinking recently about cooperative. It is easy to establish in Poland. Difficult part is to write the status which is formally correct and find founder members (approx. 20 are needed for the beginning) which I think maybe not that hard but also not sure because in my closest colleagues I know just few who know about meat a bit more than average.

2. Marketing - what I was thinking is to do internet site for that organization .Again I do not have idea about creating sites just know people who create them and it is basically not that expensive - I mean relatively. In Poland it is depends on content and add ins and adjusting to mobile devices for example but anyway the range is 2000 to 15000 PLN which is approx. 500 to 4000 euro (4000 euro is the site with security certificates and paying options - so not necessarily important for marketing as this is not a shop yet :).
Other form of marketing is to go around local farms and talk to people. That is why I was thinking about organization of consumers first. That I or anyone can have something in hand that it is serious demand and not a fantasy of organic-freak who tries to make fool of poor farmers.
There are some small initiatives around and this is also a way that although "healthy food" community is small but it is growing as I see it and people if interested want to know and share this. There are some organic-bio-healthy food shops around in my area. There are some markets which are not really acting with label organic or bio but as "directly from farmers" which a lot of people are considering it as an advantage. There are some clinics and doctors around who are aware of diet - normally in bigger cities and I know that my aunt was recently adviced to go on gluten free / diary free diet. Those people there must be also aware that market is not supportive for the way they are suggesting people to eat especially with candida problem.
So communication between this small initiatives is very small. There are people but they do not know much about themselves. There is not real network but there is demand.

3. Threats - cooperative is democratic organization and vulnerable for taking over if general assembly is willing to change the head or change the policy. There are few things:
3.1. There must be clear rule in status about intention of co-op and that members who are not supporting it are acting against may be removed from co-op.
3.2. I am not sure how should that look like when co-op is the owner of live stock. There are unfortunately regulations in Poland and I guess in EU in general which makes life of small farmers difficult - pigs must be registered if there are more than 6 as I remember. If farmer is willing to sell them, means is not keeping them for his own needs - than they are subjected to some more strict veterinarian control and basically farmer cannot kill and make anything with meat by his own even if he has know how - means it makes it only by that more expensive. So when co-op is the owner and there are some official requirements for registration and veterinarian formalities it makes it more difficult to go on. I am not sure if for example vaccines and antibiotics may be avoided legaly if community or consumers are owning them and consumers are officially willing to have that meat like that?
Swine flu made some threat to the possibilities to what may happen and maybe especially with bigger herds farmers are not really wanting to risk OSIT.
3.3. Co-op has also some accountant and tax issues which again I do not have any idea how does it work.

There is also option of European co-op but this is pricey for establishing as it need quite a sum of money for the foundation as I remember which makes it hard for people to organise.

Co op benefit is that establishing it does not require foundation money for establishing it. Well my knowledge ends here and the rest what I know from history is that this was most common form of organizing people in villages in Poland (while it was not existing as a state) in XIX and beginning of XX century.

Do You know somebody being in co-op? Maybe someone in European co-op? I really wish to talk to somebody with practice in that field. Especially consumer's co-op. We have been in London recently and I have seen for example shop chain owned by consumer co-op - The Cooperative Food. It is big enterprise. Impressive. Co-op group there has long history so it was not created in instant but anyway it is impressive and evidence that big finance is not the only player on the market.
This is also what I like in it that the strength of co-op is in number of people. Well otherhand it makes it also vulnerable as a democratic body to a democratic illnesses but still in principle this form is for people.
So do You know there anyone with whom I may talk and learn?

This is my idea for now and I wright it not really convinced that I can do something alone but anyway I was inspired by recent podcast about Wetiko virus and expressing my thoughts here. So if You wish add something which I will appreciate much. And thanks guys for already giving some feedback :). Maybe You have some more?

 

[aragorn]

Hi Mikel,

Have you investigated if there are already existing "organic food circles" in your area (or perhaps a little bit further away)? I could be wrong, and the German members can correct me, but I would imagine that there are quite a lot of people I Germany who are interested in organic (bio) products, meat and such. For example, I was surprised to learn that in the small city where I live, there are several existing small groups that buy organic meat in large quantities, and then distribute it among members. Sometimes the meat comes from pretty far away. These groups don't usually advertise, so a little bit of investigation is needed to find them.

I'm not saying that your idea is bad, but since you're pretty much alone with this project at the moment, going "grand scale" could be too stressful. What I mean is, before buying pigs and such, you could explore how others have done it (and order some meat), and get familiar with the procedures.

 

[Aiming]

Hi Mikel,

I agree with Aragorn's point that there are many people in Germany interested in organic products. The number of customers frequenting organic stores has been increasing in recent years, and one of the most regular wishes I hear from people is for a meat counter in an organic store instead of prepacked meat. So those people seem to prefer going to organic butchers or buy from "Hofläden", i.e. producers selling their products on or near their farms in an own shop or on weekly markets.

Only problem is that you're right that the idea of grass-fed meat isn't very common in Germany, especially because grain farmers are being subsidized by the state so feeding lifestock with grains is the cheapest option for farmers. But, I've just found a link to a farm who keep and sell grass-fed beef: _http://www.grassbeef-company.de/ and here are also tips: _http://germancavegirl.blogspot.de/2011/08/entschuldigung-und-tips-zum-fleischkauf.html

On these websites you can type in your location to find organic butchers in your area (_http://www.neuland-fleisch.de/verbraucher/einkaufen.html and _http://www.bioeinkaufen.de/bio-fleischer.html). For one, you could start buying good organic meat until you've made further investigation into your idea of owning lifestock, and second you could contact those butchers and talk to them about what they know, what experiences they have, etc. One thing is important in case you don't know it yet: if you buy organic meat, make sure to pay attention to the specific organic label (you can always ask the butcher, too). For example, the "EU organic label" has the worst standards, "demeter" is the best, have a look here for more info: _http://www.biomarkt.de/6176_bio_verbaende.html. Many of the organic lifestock farms also offer customers to come the farms and have a look at how the animals are kept.

Here's a shop with pastured pork: :http://www.genusshandwerker.de/Schweinefleisch/

Further, what you could do to find people knowing about a co-op in your area is to put up hang-outs in organic shops, saying you're looking for such. There's normally a pinboard in each organic shop that customers can use and it's frequented a lot, so that might really be a good way to find people who are in the know.

Also you might find useful info here, there are lots of links to websites and German forums and someone on there might be able to help you find out more: _http://paleohacks.com/questions/58899/paleo-in-germany.html

 

[Michal]

Hi guys! Great!
Thanks Aragorn for directing me into this research. I was thinking not only about Germany anyway.
I feel that it is good idea to check with producers/farmers themselves. What do they think about the market and how to expand it. I admit that idea is to big for me. I am not trying to stress myself by that but still she is, I mean idea, coming to me again and again.

Aiming - that is a lot of links You gave! Thanks! I see that with all that ideas I need to be more systematic and have some strategy. Langsam aber systematisch :). Hang-outs - great idea! Like it.

 

[LQB]

2. Marketing - what I was thinking is to do internet site for that organization .Again I do not have idea about creating sites just know people who create them and it is basically not that expensive - I mean relatively. In Poland it is depends on content and add ins and adjusting to mobile devices for example but anyway the range is 2000 to 15000 PLN which is approx. 500 to 4000 euro (4000 euro is the site with security certificates and paying options - so not necessarily important for marketing as this is not a shop yet :).
Other form of marketing is to go around local farms and talk to people. That is why I was thinking about organization of consumers first. That I or anyone can have something in hand that it is serious demand and not a fantasy of organic-freak who tries to make fool of poor farmers.
There are some small initiatives around and this is also a way that although "healthy food" community is small but it is growing as I see it and people if interested want to know and share this. There are some organic-bio-healthy food shops around in my area. There are some markets which are not really acting with label organic or bio but as "directly from farmers" which a lot of people are considering it as an advantage. There are some clinics and doctors around who are aware of diet - normally in bigger cities and I know that my aunt was recently adviced to go on gluten free / diary free diet. Those people there must be also aware that market is not supportive for the way they are suggesting people to eat especially with candida problem.
So communication between this small initiatives is very small. There are people but they do not know much about themselves. There is not real network but there is demand.

And education will increase demand.

For help with marketing there is the Weston A Price Foundation (WAPF - westonaprice.org) - an international org dedicated to teaching about nutrient dense foods with a focus on healthy animal products from pastured/grass-fed animal husbandry. You could leverage their work and teaching materials by starting a local chapter (group of members). There is no current chapter in Poland but there are two in Germany (Eifel and Munich). WAPF does a pretty good job of supporting their chapters. Getting a good doctor or two involved might help by bringing some of their patients into the group.

Just some ideas to think about ...

 

[Michal]

LQB - were You thinking about similar things before, that You have this advises in hand now? :) And the same with Aiming and You all guys. Hey that is a lot of material to think and try.

Thanks again. .... Love Networking!!! :D

 

[Sol Logos]

There's something similar happening in Australia on organic produce. Not sure if its for meat but could follow the same / similar model. _http://www.organicfarmshare.com

 

[LQB]

LQB - were You thinking about similar things before, that You have this advises in hand now? :) And the same with Aiming and You all guys. Hey that is a lot of material to think and try.

Yes, I've thought a lot about this in the past. Any tools that help get folks out of the grocery store and into their local farm community (for healthy food) are great - this helps everyone involved, including the farmers.

 

[LQB]

There's something similar happening in Australia on organic produce. Not sure if its for meat but could follow the same / similar model. _http://www.organicfarmshare.com

Yes, in the US I've seen meat/animal product CSAs and co-ops that deliver pastured/grass-fed meats to their customer base. :)