Listening for oneself, and speaking for others

Mikey

The Living Force
In Gnosis Book 1 I came across this little gem. It's about how conversations are usually done, and how they should be done in esoteric work:

Gnosis Book 1 said:
Another prescription, which we must force ourselves to respect from our first step in esoteric work, is added to the rule which prescribes silence.

If we observe [normal] people who participate in a conversation or general discussion, we will constate that, instead of listening for themselves, in order to learn, and speaking for others, each speaks for himself, and listens to others [only] out of politeness to them. We do not escape this rule. Everybody wants to insert his ideas somewhere, and searches for the most suitable occasion to do this. While waiting for our chance, we listen with patience and more or less attend to what is being said. When a conversation is being led in such a way, it is of course a conversation of the deaf, where we can rarely learn, and where generally we learn nothing. When they separate, each participant takes back the luggage with which he came, with this difference, that this sort of conversation provokes a considerable loss of fine energies.

So he's saying that conversations should be done like this: listening for oneself in order to learn, and speaking for others

And not like this: speaking for yourself, and only listen to others because it is expected and polite

I think this is a useful reminder for all of us.
 
Thanks Data for sharing this very useful reminder. It makes me wonder how much 'fine energy' we each lose during the course of an average day, without realising it.
 
Anam Cara said:
Thanks Data for sharing this very useful reminder. It makes me wonder how much 'fine energy' we each lose during the course of an average day, without realising it.

Agreed, it is a timely reminder. I think that by default, when plugged into the matrix, we tend to lose just enough fine energy throughout a day to keep ourselves in exactly the same position as we were yesterday. Many things contribute including bad posture, procrastination, acting on impulses, and unfiltered social interactions. Blame general law, OP's or whatever, but it's really just our own programs, lack of awareness and poor use of self that ultimately leads to draining.

This listen/speak stuff is important because it's a simple practical way to externally consider, and therefore preserve and even build energy through conversation instead of one or both parties being drained.
 
Great points, thanks for sharing your thoughts, ya'll. And I agree, it's very important and one of the easiest ways to practice external considering and conserving energy in the beginning of the Work. I think I've gotten quite a bit better in this practice in the last several years. As usual, it's like building a muscle, the more practice over time, the greater the results.
 
An interesting quote from the book How to Win Friends and Influence People,
which is attributed to the Stoic Philosopher Epictetus.

"We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak." - Epictetus
 
Thanks, Data. I think the same could be applied to (written) conversations on the forum.
 
Yep, that's a really good one. Thanks for finding it and sharing, Data! Funny how it all comes down to external considering, and non-internal considering. It's also pretty astounding that we can read words like this and not 'get it'. Usually, it has to be directly pointed out to a person that they're talking for themselves. They need a network. But I think something we can all do - and all should do - is make an exercise of it. That means reading it closely, then making a promise to ourselves to observe how we talk to others, and how we listen. And that means remembering.

It's a great exercise in self-remembering, because if we make it a goal, we can look back at the day, see how many conversations we've had with people, and see how many times we've forgotten our goal. And then slowly, we'll remember more and more often. Of course, it really helps to have feedback, but I don't think it's impossible to do on our own, if we have the will and the attention. We've just gotta be experimental scientists! "I notice that I talk a lot more than the person I'm talking with. But does what I'm saying actually follow from what the other person is saying? Am I responding to their words, or just using them as an opportunity to get in my own 2 cents? Next time, I'll try saying less."

It helps to have concrete examples, or at least 'types' of situations to try and recognize and see if we do them. I'll give a couple:

1) Often I notice people responding to others and it's obvious they haven't understood what the other person is saying. The other person says A and the respond as if they've said B. So one good thing to do is to rephrase what they're saying in your own words and ask if that's what they meant. "Is this what you're saying?" Or sometimes, a person is somewhat vague, leaving open more than one possible meaning, so you can ask, "I don't understand. Did you mean this or this?"

2) Knowing what to say and when to say it. Often times I'll think of some interesting anecdote and joke to fit into a conversation, and I really WANT to say it. But then the conversation moves on. I can either butt in and satisfy myself that I'm awesome, or let the opportunity pass and not fret over it. Plus, it's always possible that I'm not as funny as I think I am! :halo:

The big question is, how many will read Mouravieff's words and actually DO something based on it? How many will just read them, say "Hey, yeah, that's really deep!" and then continue on doing exactly what they've always done? Sadly, probably most.
 
In the twelve step program for recovery step 10 is: "Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it."
Some instruction is given. "When we retire at night, we constructively review our day." "What could we have done better?" "Were we thinking of ourselves most of the time? Or were we thinking of what we could do for others, of what we could pack into the stream of life?" I think this last bit can turn into internal consideration depending on motive. I think ideally you listen attentively to what a person is saying, and when it's appropriate for you to speak, what you say reflects that you have understood not just what they have said but where they're at in terms of their understanding, assumptions, prejudices, etc. Remember G said that people in the work tend to think that they don't have to use external consideration. But in fact, 10 times the external consideration is required of them. We have a great deal more knowledge and understanding than the average person. We want to talk about it. But to do so is not advantageous to us or them and is an indulgence in lack of discipline. We cannot convey to another person what has taken us years to assimilate.

So perhaps we could review our day in respect to how well we did in exercising external consideration.

My 2 cents
 
Approaching Infinity said:
Yep, that's a really good one. Thanks for finding it and sharing, Data! Funny how it all comes down to external considering, and non-internal considering. It's also pretty astounding that we can read words like this and not 'get it'. Usually, it has to be directly pointed out to a person that they're talking for themselves. They need a network. But I think something we can all do - and all should do - is make an exercise of it. That means reading it closely, then making a promise to ourselves to observe how we talk to others, and how we listen. And that means remembering.
Yes, thanks Data. I must say that I read it yesterday but, it was not that clear to me specially with the “speaking for others”, did not ask either, examples helps, it did not match the “listening for oneself in order to learn”, because “speaking for others” seemed to me to “encapsulate” my ideas/needs, of others.
When I write, “when one/me” ...that expression is what I mean by encapsulating, “me” being the one who is talking, not “one” as a general form as if everyone does it. Much probably I understand from a different meaning from the translation, or different expressions betwee English and Spanish, I suppose.

Anyways, yes is a good exercise of self-remembering, along with this case, I can add the “tone/sound” of the voice, this week I was noted by a coworker that I answered in a rude manner to a client, it was not what I said, it was the tone of my voice, I tend to get confused with some clients, and being confused lead me to answer/talk in a different tone of voice. Coworker told me that the client feel offended. In which I did not notice while doing it, but afterwards, the ideal should be to check myself before I continue the dialogue. I had been observing how others do, to be able to learn how to answer better upon little shocks.

I had noticed since a year back, that when I am with people, like family/friends in which I had not seen them much, I tend to talk a lot, a lot. After noticing I have been restricting myself to stop talking, I suppose is because, I do not spend the whatever percentage of speaking words I –seem- to need to talk. Lack of interaction to/with other people, I suppose.

Sometimes, when I allow others to speak, express themselves, and, I am restricting what I want to say, leaves me with a ... -do not know how to describe such- sensation, as if something was not fullfilled?

I think I had been doing something that I used to think it was for the better of the other person, but now that I thinking about it, it was just satisfying a posteriori myself. I tend to pay attention to others (speaking form) and remember to do it everytime I remember, because I think/thought that, is what I wanted to be listen too, and shouldn't be that way, I think I should listen to others just because and, not because I assume others may be listening to me next time. As gaining something.

Thanks others that also contributed to this thread. :)
 
mabar said:
Anyways, yes is a good exercise of self-remembering, along with this case, I can add the “tone/sound” of the voice, this week I was noted by a coworker that I answered in a rude manner to a client, it was not what I said, it was the tone of my voice, I tend to get confused with some clients, and being confused lead me to answer/talk in a different tone of voice. Coworker told me that the client feel offended. In which I did not notice while doing it, but afterwards, the ideal should be to check myself before I continue the dialogue. I had been observing how others do, to be able to learn how to answer better upon little shocks.

I have experienced this change in tone in different situations. It is usually accompanied by a shallow breathing/holding of breath and tightness in the face and chest area. I may not realize this at all in the moment or if I do, I may put the responsibility on the other person as in "he confused/disturbed me". I can analyze in retrospect what happened. However in the moment, becoming aware of the breath and tightness provide the only consistent clues as to what is really going on.

[quote author=mabar]
Sometimes, when I allow others to speak, express themselves, and, I am restricting what I want to say, leaves me with a ... -do not know how to describe such- sensation, as if something was not fullfilled?
[/quote]

I experience it like an internal pressure. When I have said my piece, the pressure is relieved. If not, the pressure is built up. This pressure can be released in a different situation with different people later on without any conscious awareness.

Holding the pressure consciously results in a different experience. Like in a pressure cooker, if there is a container where there can be a build-up and subsequent controlled release of pressure, then things inside can be cooked/transformed.
 
Thanks for all the clarifying replies.

The excerpt I've shared above was taken from a passage which dealt with silence in esoteric development. Clearly, listening for oneself, and speaking for others, is rooted in an internal silence. Meaning, one is internally silent and perfectly comfortable with silence, and does not give in to a need to say something. Then, what is being said (or not) entirely depends on the receptivity of other people which are present. And this comes back to external considering, knowing other people, and being good at reading clues and cues.

Being able to be internally silent is already a good progress I believe, since by default speaking is fully automatic. Few people can plan or chart their words before they come out. Rather it is like a verbal, self-sustaining fountain that pours its content uncontrollably. Sometimes, after a conversation, when you review what happened, you can notice that your words came from somewhere, only not from yourself.

A hint is easyness I believe: When you discover holding a monologue longer than a certain time, which comes easy for you, and you're passively enjoying what comes out, I think it's a sure sign that a correction is needed. Gurdjieff et. al. indicated that wiseacring and carelessly held conversations leak a lot of fine energies that better should be preserved.

But then, there also could be too much silence. If everybody would take silence to seriously (like in a cloister), there would be little exchange. Connecting to others, networking and feedback are important elements of the Work too, and they are based on speech. Even 'smalltalk' is good at times. So again, nothing is black and white, and walking the fine grey border is the art that is to be learned.
 
Data said:
Few people can plan or chart their words before they come out.
I am one of that people. I guess that its a sort of perfectionism and anticipation. For example, if I'am late for a work on the way I invent the text\explanation of my delay. I used to be very exciting, but in the present I don't worry about it and lisonf the habbit to invent explanations\justifications...

Data said:
Rather it is like a verbal, self-sustaining fountain that pours its content uncontrollably. Sometimes, after a conversation, when you review what happened, you can notice that your words came from somewhere, only not from yourself.

I used to think that it's like a grace...But I had been noticing after that afterward is tiredness and apathy. So, totally agreed here...

The question I've thought recently is: why I've lost any interest to idle talks? At the office every morning in the kitchen room me and coworkers of mine sittting and talking about different things. I hear them but I have nothing to say, beacuse the don't asking exactly me about this or that. The thing is not like I'm waiting "special invitation" that moment, I suppose the issue that I have not need to insert my 2 cent in such talks. Another thing is being near people who tells you his\her story about past evening, and when he\she finishes I have nothing to say...again. What I can do? I have not similar experience, I have not MUCH interest (for example, in dancing) what I should do? I do nothing and just say "Oh, looks good!Cool!" but I feel confused that moment. It would be easy to take silent for me. The people say so much that I lose the thread of talk and external considering stops and internal considering in order to find the thread or just mean of talking starts. Another matter if anyone asks.
It might because I'm always in my own thoughts...I don't know. I'm sorry if it is not the point of thread
 
s-kur said:
The question I've thought recently is: why I've lost any interest to idle talks? At the office every morning in the kitchen room me and coworkers of mine sittting and talking about different things. I hear them but I have nothing to say, beacuse the don't asking exactly me about this or that. The thing is not like I'm waiting "special invitation" that moment, I suppose the issue that I have not need to insert my 2 cent in such talks. Another thing is being near people who tells you his\her story about past evening, and when he\she finishes I have nothing to say...again. What I can do? I have not similar experience, I have not MUCH interest (for example, in dancing) what I should do? I do nothing and just say "Oh, looks good!Cool!" but I feel confused that moment. It would be easy to take silent for me. The people say so much that I lose the thread of talk and external considering stops and internal considering in order to find the thread or just mean of talking starts. Another matter if anyone asks.

This seems to be a common and natural experience for those who make some progress in the Work. I can highly suggest reading Mouravieff's Gnosis and/or Ouspensky's In Search of the Miraculous for some more helpful insight and practical advice. Things astonishingly play out in a very similar way for many people. So, you are not alone in this, I can confirm from my own experience. Understanding better how it all works can make you more calm and relaxed in such situations. Such understanding will not change external facts, i.e. will not take away other people talking like this, but you will have more strength in tolerating it, and participating in the discussions nevertheless. This will make your relations with all people much better and more healthy.
 
Data said:
s-kur said:
The question I've thought recently is: why I've lost any interest to idle talks? At the office every morning in the kitchen room me and coworkers of mine sittting and talking about different things. I hear them but I have nothing to say, beacuse the don't asking exactly me about this or that. The thing is not like I'm waiting "special invitation" that moment, I suppose the issue that I have not need to insert my 2 cent in such talks. Another thing is being near people who tells you his\her story about past evening, and when he\she finishes I have nothing to say...again. What I can do? I have not similar experience, I have not MUCH interest (for example, in dancing) what I should do? I do nothing and just say "Oh, looks good!Cool!" but I feel confused that moment. It would be easy to take silent for me. The people say so much that I lose the thread of talk and external considering stops and internal considering in order to find the thread or just mean of talking starts. Another matter if anyone asks.

This seems to be a common and natural experience for those who make some progress in the Work. I can highly suggest reading Mouravieff's Gnosis and/or Ouspensky's In Search of the Miraculous for some more helpful insight and practical advice. Things astonishingly play out in a very similar way for many people. So, you are not alone in this, I can confirm from my own experience. Understanding better how it all works can make you more calm and relaxed in such situations. Such understanding will not change external facts, i.e. will not take away other people talking like this, but you will have more strength in tolerating it, and participating in the discussions nevertheless. This will make your relations with all people much better and more healthy.

Thanks for feedback Data, you gave me a hope :D
I've read ISOTM but haven't read Gnosis, I can't find it in Russian , only online reading, maybe I'll engage it and transform online into electronic and then in printed version. I'm waiting for a while to start read ISOTM again in order to compare experience\understanding before\between\after. Sometimes I trying to see some things in disinteresting stories and ask question to the interlocutor in hope "to take the wave". Unfortunately, often we are just "interchanged the position". And yes, I understand that I should to be able interacting with all people.

I've remember this excerpt from G's lectures:

Question: I think my worst fault is talking too much. Would trying not to talk so much be a good task?

Answer: For you this is a very good aim. You spoil everything with your talking. This talk even hinders your business. When you talk much, your words have no weight. Try to overcome this. Many blessings will flow to you if you succeed. Truly, this is a very good task. But it is a big thing, not small. I promise you, if you achieve this, even if I am not here, I will know about your achievement, and will send help so that you will know what to do next.

Question: Would a good task be to endure the manifestations of others?

Answer: To endure the manifestations of others is a big thing. The last thing for a man. Only a perfect man can do this. Start by making your aim or your God the ability to bear one manifestation of one person that you cannot now endure without nervousness. If you “wish,” you “can.” Without “wish- ing,” you never “can.” Wish is the most powerful thing in the world. With conscious wish everything comes.

inspiration added : because too much of your energy being spent on talks, and you haven't enough to DO

The inner silence with external observation might good way to endure. Sometimes I see myself in different other's manifestations, they don't very clear but stronger imprint in the memory than if I would have observed the same myself manifestations.
 
Very interesting thread, Data. Thanks for sharing.

One thing I find in really listening to others is that there is often an expectation of response. Sometimes this can be difficult, as in situations like s-kur shared above. In many situations, I think the person is really looking for confirmation or agreement with what they just said. In day to day conversation with those who are not in the work or aware of the general situation on this planet, this can present quite a challenge since, more often than not, I don't agree!

This is where external consideration comes into play. Are they really asking? Since it's not usually the case that they are, I usually deflect with some sort of cliché, like "Well, what are you gonna do? The world is a mess..." or something similar. This usually diffuses the situation and the conversation ends without any subversion of free will, OSIT. But in order to get there, this inner silence that Mouravieff speaks of is necessary. We can't assess what the most externally considerate action would be if we haven't really been listening to the speaker, looking for hints on where they're at in their thinking and what they're really asking for.

Just some thoughts on the subject.
 

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