Mark Duggan

[Vic]

I just watched some of the vigil being held for Mark Duggan. Having kept an eye on the progression of this 'case' since Mark was killed by the London Met, my view is that he was murdered in cold blood by police thugs. At the same time I am aware of emotional thinking and the possibility that it may not be as black and white as that. Whatever, it seems clear that Mark did not need to die - the police did not need to shoot him. But we know that that institution is full of psychopaths.

I get emotional watching vigils like that. I really hope it goes off peacefully. If the system sends it's agent provocateurs in then there is no hope of that. I will be very surprised, and pleased, if they leave this one alone.

I admired Mark's auntie - articulate, strong, and asking to keep the vigil peaceful. I got the impression she knows more than the average person there. Perhaps she knows that violence is just what the police, and the PTB, want.

 

[FireballK1282]

Duggan was shot by an armed officer whose duty is to protect the law abiding majority not an armed criminal who was in possession of a loaded weapon.

It's quite simple, if you don't want your kith and kin to be shot by the police try and stop them travelling around with a loaded gun, it increases their chance of survival considerably. Of course they will be unable to shoot rival 'gangsta's' on the streets of The UK, but that would prevent the shooting and killing of innocent civilians, usually kids, by criminals who don't have the discipline and training that firearms officers have.

Once an armed officer has drawn his or her weapon they are following a kill or be killed routine ultimately that rapidly moves from shouted instructions to pulling the trigger. Their physical view of the world narrows to a very small 'sight picture' at the end of which is the body mass of an armed criminal. If that person fails to follow instructions and has a weapon in their hands that then moves towards that officer , bang!
Armed officers are trained to do a job, the end result of which can be the death of the person carrying a weapon. Exiting a car with a gun in your hand following a hard stop by tactical firearms officers and raising a weapon whether to throw it away, or to use it was not the best choice in the circumstances.

There is an understandable question mark about where Duggans loaded weapon was found and whether it was planted there by Police. Start with the facts on this one, Duggan had the weapon on him when the car was stopped, he was exiting the vehicle with the weapon in his hand and the rest is history as per the jury view at the coroners inquest. If the cops had wanted to place the weapon anywhere after the shooting do you really believe it would have been where it was found, the other side of a fence and hedge, the width of a pavement in between? Surely it would have been between the fence and the minicab on the pavement.
Never seen anyone shot, but I can imagine the effect that getting hit by 2 high velocity rounds in the torso does to the body, the arms of which are on the extremity of and holding a weighty object, gun. Well the laws of physics take over, so is it entirely possible that Duggans gun went over the fence, through the hedge and landed where it did? Who knows.

But I wasn't there so can only speculate based on the facts presented. Don't carry guns and you are unlikely to be shot by armed police, fact.

Was Duggans death unnecessary? Yes, but whose fault was it... .?

 

[Zadius Sky]

Hi FireballK1282,

I see you have not had a chance to post your intro thread as we suggest that new forum members introduce themselves in the Newbies section. Nothing personal, just a little bit about yourself and how you found the forum. If you are unsure of what to write, take a look at how others on the board have done it. :)

 

[FireballK1282]

Thanks, but no thanks.

Reason for joining is absolute disgust at the ATS forum failing to address a number of provable gross violations of T&C and moderator inconsistency

1. Was some accusations of lying against me despite quoting factual attributed professional data or reports.

2. Holocaust denial by a member which remained unanswered despite 2 pleas from me for action.

3. Apparent 'stalking' by a moderator with a site reputation for bad behaviour and inconsistent approach, no response to this complaint.

4. Drew attention to a posters admitted use of cannabis a T&C violation by the poster, combined this with drawing attention to the fact that the guy had admitted driving under the influence of cannabis and texting at the same time...posters various posts remained, I was among many who were heavily moderated from the site, docked points, sob! And eventually 404'd off their site with all my questions remaining unanswered.

I personally couldn't care less about points docking or warnings from power crazy moderators with reputations!
I do care that any site could fail to address properly, if at all, an allegation of holocaust denial and that should be a cause for concern for ATS site owners never mind anyone using their forum!

You asked, I respectfully replied, should this reply get posted elsewhere I can quite understand, but someone somewhere needs to address this issue about ATS and holocaust denial.

I posted a lengthy plea to ATS after they bounced me off their site, predictably it remains unanswered.

 

[Gawan]

Thanks, but no thanks.

Reason for joining is absolute disgust at the ATS forum failing to address a number of provable gross violations of T&C and moderator inconsistency

1. Was some accusations of lying against me despite quoting factual attributed professional data or reports.

2. Holocaust denial by a member which remained unanswered despite 2 pleas from me for action.

3. Apparent 'stalking' by a moderator with a site reputation for bad behaviour and inconsistent approach, no response to this complaint.

4. Drew attention to a posters admitted use of cannabis a T&C violation by the poster, combined this with drawing attention to the fact that the guy had admitted driving under the influence of cannabis and texting at the same time...posters various posts remained, I was among many who were heavily moderated from the site, docked points, sob! And eventually 404'd off their site with all my questions remaining unanswered.

I personally couldn't care less about points docking or warnings from power crazy moderators with reputations!
I do care that any site could fail to address properly, if at all, an allegation of holocaust denial and that should be a cause for concern for ATS site owners never mind anyone using their forum!

You asked, I respectfully replied, should this reply get posted elsewhere I can quite understand, but someone somewhere needs to address this issue about ATS and holocaust denial.

I posted a lengthy plea to ATS after they bounced me off their site, predictably it remains unanswered.

Hi FireballK1282, actually I don't understand at all what you posted above, can you clarify what you mean? Beside I would like to repeat what Zadius Sky wrote above and already in another topic:

Hi FireballK1282,

I see you have not had a chance to post your intro thread as we suggest that new forum members introduce themselves in the Newbies section. Nothing personal, just a little bit about yourself and how you found the forum. If you are unsure of what to write, take a look at how others on the board have done it. :)

 

[Vic]

Duggan was shot by an armed officer whose duty is to protect the law abiding majority not an armed criminal who was in possession of a loaded weapon.

It's quite simple, if you don't want your kith and kin to be shot by the police try and stop them travelling around with a loaded gun, it increases their chance of survival considerably. Of course they will be unable to shoot rival 'gangsta's' on the streets of The UK, but that would prevent the shooting and killing of innocent civilians, usually kids, by criminals who don't have the discipline and training that firearms officers have.

Once an armed officer has drawn his or her weapon they are following a kill or be killed routine ultimately that rapidly moves from shouted instructions to pulling the trigger. Their physical view of the world narrows to a very small 'sight picture' at the end of which is the body mass of an armed criminal. If that person fails to follow instructions and has a weapon in their hands that then moves towards that officer , bang!
Armed officers are trained to do a job, the end result of which can be the death of the person carrying a weapon. Exiting a car with a gun in your hand following a hard stop by tactical firearms officers and raising a weapon whether to throw it away, or to use it was not the best choice in the circumstances.

There is an understandable question mark about where Duggans loaded weapon was found and whether it was planted there by Police. Start with the facts on this one, Duggan had the weapon on him when the car was stopped, he was exiting the vehicle with the weapon in his hand and the rest is history as per the jury view at the coroners inquest. If the cops had wanted to place the weapon anywhere after the shooting do you really believe it would have been where it was found, the other side of a fence and hedge, the width of a pavement in between? Surely it would have been between the fence and the minicab on the pavement.
Never seen anyone shot, but I can imagine the effect that getting hit by 2 high velocity rounds in the torso does to the body, the arms of which are on the extremity of and holding a weighty object, gun. Well the laws of physics take over, so is it entirely possible that Duggans gun went over the fence, through the hedge and landed where it did? Who knows.

But I wasn't there so can only speculate based on the facts presented. Don't carry guns and you are unlikely to be shot by armed police, fact.

Was Duggans death unnecessary? Yes, but whose fault was it... .?

I suggest you do your own research, FireballK1282. Don't rely on mainstream media for 'facts'

 

[FireballK1282]

Sorry, the facts I relied upon having undertaken my own open source research were based on the findings of a Jury, not speculative media reporting!

Anything to do with tactical firearms use by the police that I have utilised is based on freely available open source information, again, as researched. If you have ever discharged a firearm you will no doubt be familiar with the sight picture and the narrow field of view that ensues.

If you want or need to research Duggans background, again, open source information is freely available.

What other 'facts' would you have me consider?

 

[luke wilson]

What fireball said has the same flavour as what those who thought Travyon Martin's death was being blown out of proportion were saying...

Things like

Oh nooo he was walking in the wrong street, he probably wouldn't have been killed if he just decided not to walk in a well-to-do neighbourhood and not confronted his stalker etc etc.

Anyways, no need to argue/debate with these sorts...

They also liked very much to talk about 'facts'. That was like a buzzword or something.

The similarities are uncanny despite the 2 incidents occurring continents apart. Almost like these sorts are being beamed information from a central hub somewhere.

 

[luke wilson]

discipline and training that firearms officers have.

Attempt at humor?

Have you been keeping count of how many people are being beaten up, shot at and being harassed by law enforcement on a daily basis? Discipline and training....

 

[FireballK1282]

I much prefer facts to speculation or I'll informed guess work.

I don't keep count of the number of people 'beaten up' by the Police, because I don't believe that many are, re-read this, it does not say I don't believe they do not beat people up!

When it comes to people being shot, we are talking in the UK here not NRA USA, then the truth! data! facts speak for themselves! you can speculate and claim whatever you want but you cannot alter truth! only perception - go ahead and quote the figures for Police shootings if you dare!

When it comes to front line policing, the thin blue line of reality, unless you have stood and been spat at or worse for protecting those that need protection then you fall totally into the predictable box that sits behind its warrior of the keyboard status. If you have, whilst unarmed, had to contend with a person armed with a loaded weapon, step forward, and join the clan, and no, I am not a Police Officer, I don't have the skill sets for that role.

If it was not for the thin blue line, you would not be free to shower your comments upon the Police as total anarchy would have robbed you of that ability. The police are not angels, they cannot be, they are human dealing with the dregs of our society and humanity on a daily basis. They see and deal with death in its many forms, and sometimes, when offering a wee bit of compassion or support to the bereaved, from whatever background, religion or belief, sometimes, someone, quietly says thanks. It kind of makes the rest of the crap all worthwhile.

Duggan should not have died, but don't blame the 'Old Bill' for that, try looking at the culture on the streets and the society that the lad grew up in.

Whether or not I agree with your opinions is immaterial, you live in a society that allows them. Throw as much my way as you want, you have not got a bat in helps chance of changing my, or the majority of the UK citizenship views about our Police. Despite the obvious bad bits!

 

[mkrnhr]

FireballK1282,
Calm down, nobody's fighting with you. Have you read the forum guidelines on how to communicate with people?

 

[FireballK1282]

Apologies people.

Just crossed over from the 'Dark Side' or ATS as it is known.

May be in need of more than a bit of readjustment as a result of that experience.

Quite content to be shown the accepted ways.

 

[Vic]

Apologies people.

Just crossed over from the 'Dark Side' or ATS as it is known.

May be in need of more than a bit of readjustment as a result of that experience.

Quite content to be shown the accepted ways.

Hi FireballK1282

In my original post I said that things aren't usually, if ever, black and white. Accepting a story as presented by the PTB controlled mainstream media means receiving a filtered and biased account based on the PTB agenda of control and destruction of the people. Likewise, accepting a story as presented by, in this particular case, Mark Duggan's supporters also means receiving a filtered and biased account based on grief and anger, and a belief that justice has not been served.

The nearest we can get to some of the 'facts' in this case are as follows:

Five Thoughts on the Killing of Mark Duggan

1. Mark Duggan was shot dead by a Metropolitan Police officer on 4 August 2011 after getting out of a minicab on Ferry Lane, Tottenham. The inquest into his killing concluded yesterday. All ten jurors agreed he had a gun with him in the taxi before police stopped it. Eight of them were sure the gun was no longer in his hands when he was shot. And yet, by an 8-2 majority, they found that Duggan was lawfully killed. The jury accepted that V53, the anonymous officer who shot Duggan, ‘honestly believed, even if that belief was mistaken’, that he needed to use deadly force to defend himself against an unarmed man. According to the police witness accounts, Duggan was holding a gun until the moment he was shot. A gun was later found behind a wall nearby. No witnesses – including the only civilian – describe seeing Duggan throw anything away.

2. Even if you believe that every officer in court at Duggan’s inquest told the truth (which the jury plainly didn’t), we already know that the immediate reaction of the police in the hours after the shooting was to lie. So Duggan fired at the police – just like Jean Charles de Menezes jumped over the ticket barrier and protesters bottled medics trying to save the life of Ian Tomlinson.

3. The media have been inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the killer but not to the victim. At the inquest, V53 could not account for the fact that the gun which he claimed to have seen in Duggan’s hand was nowhere near his body after he was shot. ‘The gun disappeared,’ he said. The BBC website briefly noted the inconsistency, but the headline said: ‘Mark Duggan inquest: Officer “saw gun in hand”.’ Yesterday afternoon, the state broadcaster tweeted a link to a profile of Duggan:
"Violent gangster, ‘clothing retailer’, ‘beautiful’ son – who was Mark #Duggan?" Look at which words are in quotation marks. Duggan had no convictions for violent offences. (The tweet has since been deleted.)

4. Even if a verdict of unlawful killing had been returned, it would not have amounted to justice. To be unlawfully killed is a strange thing, a death in the passive voice. Who does the killing; who is the unlawful killer? Azelle Rodney, another black Londoner with a minimal criminal record but alleged links to organised crime, was shot dead by police in North London in 2005. A judicial inquiry which concluded in July last year found that he was unlawfully killed. No officer has been charged. According to figures collected by the charity INQUEST, nearly 1500 people have died in police custody or otherwise following contact with the police in England and Wales since 1990. In that time, inquests or inquiries have returned 13 verdicts of unlawful killing. Three of those verdicts were quashed or overturned. Police officers have been put on trial eight times. In every case they were either acquitted or the trial collapsed.

5. Lies from the police, smears from the press: the Duggans have been portrayed as a brood of gangsters whose son/father/nephew deserved everything he got. But the family are no dupes. ‘David Cameron, you’ve given the blue light to your boys to go out and murder,’ Mark's aunt Carole, said at the United Friends and Families march on Whitehall in October. ‘We want answers from you as to why you think that you can kill working-class people and nothing gets mentioned.’

_http://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2014/01/09/harry-stopes/five-thoughts-on-the-killing-of-markduggan/

 

[FireballK1282]

Paddyjohn and others,

In response,

Firstly I for one have long ago ceased to believe everything that emanates from an official source, the MSM and particularly conspiracy theory sites. I choose not to comment or speculate on anything the Duggan family has said, they have a tragedy to cope with, no matter what the cause.
I choose to read between the lines and seek alternative slants on what is reported, from whichever side of the dividing line it hails.
i have a healthy respect for those able to place attributable facts before any forum, and your first para. is well balanced.

items...
1. Q. Did you see the deceased in possession of a gun A No
Q, Where were you when the deceased was shot
Q. From that position did you have a clear view of the deceased either in the car or as he was exiting the car, in particular his hands
Q. Did you see deceased throw a weapon over the fence around the time he exited the car
Q. Where were you at this almost same point in time
Q. Can you say conclusively that deceased was not in possession of weapon at this point in time
you see, it all depends on the questions asked as to the answers given, and when a question is not asked there is no chance to assess the answer, lines of sight can be as blurred peoples perceptions in stressful situations.

2. I dont recall any lies being made, I do recall the IPCC giving out the wrong information as well as the Police and these serous mistakes have been accepted by both the Met and the IPCC and will be examined subsequently, in fact some are currently sub judice.

3. unless I am mistaken a variety of social media postings by friends and others seem to indicate strongly his association with various NW London/Tottenham gangs subject to attention of Operation Trident (a Met Initiative brought about in response to the requests of the Black Community of London)

4. The verdict was NOT an unlawful killing so most of what follows is pure speculation, however, when it comes to statistics and particularly those relating to deaths in custody or otherwise, care should be taken in their interpretation, starting from the charity figure of 1500 from 1990, say 23 years total, that figure rapidly reduces to 13 unlawful killings with 3 of those verdicts quashed or overturned, leaving 10 deaths, halting at 10, rather than skewing the stats by taking out the 8 acquittals or collapsed trials that figure equates to 1 death every 2.3 years, using the charities statistics to work from. its a figure of 1 every 11.5 years if you want to manipulate the stats the whole way, but there will be some that wont believe these stats despite their origins. i think the stats produce figures that do not reflect anything other than the statistics, and not the reality. This is an honest opinion and I hope balances out the false picture that stas can end up being.

5. on Jan 31st 2013, following a retrial after a collapsed trial (Law works both ways...!) Kevin Hutchinson~Lawrence was found guilty at The Old Bailey of supplying Duggan with a gun brought into the minicab 12~15 minutes before Duggans shooting by the Police. the weapon was a conversion from a blank firing weapon, it was loaded and capable of being fired.

Additional comments...
Even The Voice, UK's leading Black newspaper reported Duggans links to the "Star Gang" from NW London.
Duggan had been arrested twice on suspicion of murder, no charges brought
Duggan had been picked up twice previously alleged to be travelling in a car in which ammo and a gun was found, believed no charges brought or possibly not arrested even?

There is an old saying hailing from London that relates to the Man on The Clapham Omnibus. I would contend that the man on the bus would not believe that Mark Duggan was quite the Angel he is portrayed as having been.
This same man might also possibly contend that his death may have been avoided in the first place by not being involved with the foregoing.
I share that view and repeat, because of the circumstances a family tragically now is without Mark Duggan.