More Questions!

[luke wilson]

I have been reading Boris Mouravieff: Polar Opposites, or the Fifth Way of Love by Laura Knight-Jadczyk and trying to somehow understand the meaning behind the words and comparing this to what i've experienced in life so far and acouple of questions have come to mind that I cant really answer.

1) Its to do with selfishness. That is, looking out for number 1 which is you. I have been told there are alot of 'I' but I assume there is only one real 'I' and our work as people is peeling through the layers in the hope of finding our true self. I hope that is right. Thats seems good and all but from what I can gather, the reason of finding our true self is not to be united with MYSELF( by this i am excluding the soulmate but I mean ones own personal soul) or somehow to see the world through un-tainted glasses but to ultimately seek to leave this world and go somewhere better and the only way to do that is to get rid of all your fake 'I's'? Is that right? Am i right that according to that essay the aim is well 'To get out of dodge by consciously causing change'. My question is, isnt that abit selfish? ie. bottom line is everyone is looking out for themselves.

To quote

To attempt to exert our will or to make our voice travel "upward," against Creation results only in a clash of forces. It is, in essence, an attempt to violate the Free Will of Creation, i.e. Hubris. This is why praying for material changes, rituals designed to "change" reality, "positive thinking" with the "intent" to change something "up there," in order to receive the benefits "down here," is always doomed to produce more strife, misery and suffering globally. "Seek ye first the kingdom of Heaven..." and this kingdom is - or CAN be - within.

How can one escape this rather deadly trap is what am getting at.

2) This essay touched on the subject of God. Personally I dont know what to think of God. I thought of him as an external being but according to this, God takes awhole different meaning i.e. God is a state of being. This is good and all but erhmm, in this world of chaos and disorder, if God isnt the person guarding everyone else, then who is? From personal experience, I dont attribute everything that happens to me as mere chance and probabilty as my life despite my attempt against it seems to be going in a particular direction (one that I dont even know) and a course some of which passes through terrain that brings nuthing but headache. However, what i've noticed is that this turmoil doesnt serve to destroy you(despite it feeling like there is an inferno raging inside) and sometimes I find myself finding out new stuff and learning through this experiences and fundamentally slowly changing withing myself, problem is, sometimes you almost have a vague feeling of being somehow guided - sometimes while kicking and screaming being taken to places you had no intention of going but weirdly enough despite ones imagination saying you should fight, rebel and such I find myself surrendering to the invisible powers that be and just hoping that somehow I dont end up in a ditch - so far so good but am young and there is plenty of time before it truely comes crashing down[thats whats my mind is telling me - you might have been lucky once, twice, 3times but you cant ride your luck forever]. Now, my question is, is this the hand of fate, destiny, God or what? Infact i'd very much appreciate if I get the definition of what this words mean.

3)This is abit personal but its to do with the question of soulmates. From what I can gather from this, there is only one soulmate for everyone so its pointless getting into the dating game which for me despite certain poor attempts i've not even successfully monouvred through the 1st hurdle. I thought well, this can only mean that I am going to live and die alone forever as I cant seem to be able to 'flirt' with girls. You can imagine my relief when I heard about there being a soulmate for everyone. Then you can imagine my horroh of finding out the deadly traps that lie in the this very idea eg someone who you think is 'the one' might not end up being the one and such. Infact it dawned on me that finding this soulmate and everything working out just right involves alot of variables coming together in just the right way that well, you're almost more likely to be hit by a meteorite. So my question is, I dont know my trueself - infact i have no idea what it looks like so even if I saw it, I probably wouldnt know what I was staring at, so with this in mind is it ok if one (a person with imperfect information on this subject) just follows his gut instincts and what he feels on this subject of a soulmate and somehow hope for the best or is that wishful thinking that can result in disaster?

4) According to all this teachings, what is the aim of this life? What should one look to do? I assume living your life with the sole purpose of acquiring material wealth, power and prestige is the wrong way to go about it.

5) Is it true when I say that just knowing this knowledge is not enough in that one needs to experience and live and through that learn this almost like on the job and grow inorder to succeed in the true sense. That is, in order for man to become his true-self? So if man came across this knowledge and refused to learn it, would his own everyday life with its very many obstacles be sufficient in enabling him to succeed in this endevour? That is, can a blind-man make it to the end?

Thanks I hope to get some insightful feedback.

 

[Buddy]

Hi luke wilson.
The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know, so I may not be able to fully answer your questions.

I have been reading Boris Mouravieff: Polar Opposites, or the Fifth Way of Love by Laura Knight-Jadczyk and trying to somehow understand the meaning behind the words and comparing this to what i've experienced in life so far and acouple of questions have come to mind that I cant really answer.

1) Its to do with selfishness. That is, looking out for number 1 which is you. I have been told there are alot of 'I' but I assume there is only one real 'I' and our work as people is peeling through the layers in the hope of finding our true self. I hope that is right. Thats seems good and all but from what I can gather, the reason of finding our true self is not to be united with MYSELF( by this i am excluding the soulmate but I mean ones own personal soul) or somehow to see the world through un-tainted glasses but to ultimately seek to leave this world and go somewhere better and the only way to do that is to get rid of all your fake 'I's'? Is that right? Am i right that according to that essay the aim is well 'To get out of dodge by consciously causing change'. My question is, isnt that abit selfish? ie. bottom line is everyone is looking out for themselves.

To quote

To attempt to exert our will or to make our voice travel "upward," against Creation results only in a clash of forces. It is, in essence, an attempt to violate the Free Will of Creation, i.e. Hubris. This is why praying for material changes, rituals designed to "change" reality, "positive thinking" with the "intent" to change something "up there," in order to receive the benefits "down here," is always doomed to produce more strife, misery and suffering globally. "Seek ye first the kingdom of Heaven..." and this kingdom is - or CAN be - within.

How can one escape this rather deadly trap is what am getting at.

First, I think it's importantant to realize that people understand 'selfishness' many different ways. Genuine esoteric work on oneself is not intended to offer benefits to an individual to the exclusion of others. It would be difficult to accomplish that anyway since interacting with others provides the mirrors for seeing ourselves objectively and understanding what we need to work on. Others also benefit from our External Consideration while we Work.

Even if Work didn't immediately involve others, it still wouldn't be selfish in a negative sense, anymore than watching where you step prevents falling in a hole, breaking a leg, going to the hospital, being out of work, losing a paycheck and not being able to feed your family. Does that make sense?

Esoteric work is for the purpose of understanding and cleaning your machine. To fuse a single "I" that can consciously choose to DO whatever needs to be done to support and improve the symbiotic community of all.

In my view, the part you quoted above is about not commanding the Universe. Not trying to force change 'out there', but rather beginning to change inside yourself. Escape that deadly trap by understanding what it is...seeing it for what it is and Work on yourself, not others.


3. I can't answer the question about soulmates.

4) According to all this teachings, what is the aim of this life? What should one look to do? I assume living your life with the sole purpose of acquiring material wealth, power and prestige is the wrong way to go about it.

I think that's a good assumption. Maybe the general aim of (esoteric) life is to find out who we are, take control of our own evolution into our Authentic selves, help others do the same and/or whatever Universe wants from us.

5) Is it true when I say that just knowing this knowledge is not enough in that one needs to experience and live and through that learn this almost like on the job and grow inorder to succeed in the true sense. That is, in order for man to become his true-self?

I would agree with that.

So if man came across this knowledge and refused to learn it, would his own everyday life with its very many obstacles be sufficient in enabling him to succeed in this endevour? That is, can a blind-man make it to the end?

Such a man might find it sufficient to obtain a limited amount of growth, if he is in learning mode and is capable of learning. Then again, there might be different consequences (Karmic, perhaps?) for the man who, once exposed to the 'knowledge', then refuses it. It might make him much less likely to have any future chance for awakening and growth.

Hope this isn't too confusing. Also, I could be wrong about something here, so just consider it fwiw. :)

By any chance have you read Laura's Wave series?

 

[mada85]

I'd like to address some of your questions. I'm sure others here will have more input as I can't by any stretch of the imagination be called an expert .

I have been told there are alot of 'I' but I assume there is only one real 'I' and our work as people is peeling through the layers in the hope of finding our true self.

I think that's a fair assessment, although it could also be thought of as transforming the layers, as each layer holds energy which is trapped there until we learn to release it and use it for our Work.

Thats seems good and all but from what I can gather, the reason of finding our true self is not to be united with MYSELF( by this i am excluding the soulmate but I mean ones own personal soul) or somehow to see the world through un-tainted glasses but to ultimately seek to leave this world and go somewhere better

You've described three things: the development of a real I; the development of objective knowledge; the transition to fourth density. The first two are within our grasp but we know very little, if anything, about the third. So, we can work on the first two. One involves self-observation, the other involves other-observation, and the two should be carried out in parallel.

Therefore, as we find ourselves in third density, our aim should be to learn the lessons of third density, which the Cs describe as 'karmic and simple understandings'. If the fruit of learning those lessons is to get out of Dodge in one piece, then that, it seems to me, is more of a by-product rather than the main aim of Work on the self.

and the only way to do that is to get rid of all your fake 'I's'? Is that right?

It might be better to think of this process as transforming, or perhaps eating the small i's, since when the small i's release their energy for our conscious use, we do in a sense eat them. But who knows whether even a human being who has achieved the highest level of development possible in 3D has actually transformed all their small i's? Others here may well have more knowledge of this.

Am i right that according to that essay the aim is well 'To get out of dodge by consciously causing change'. My question is, isnt that abit selfish? ie. bottom line is everyone is looking out for themselves.

Your self is the place to start. You cannot work on others without their consent, and even if you had their consent, would you know what to do?

The C's, when asked by Laura if they served self or others, replied that they served self through others, which may seem to be a paradox. How can one serve oneself through others? It is only by working on oneself that one can gain the knowledge and awareness to know how to help others for their highest benefit. By learning as much about people as possible so as to serve them better, and by observing the result of one's service, and at the same time observing internally which little i's influenced the service one gave to the other, one can in that way serve oneself through others. 'Serving self through others' sounds very simple, but it's quite difficult to explain succinctly. I hope this gives you food for thought, though.

Have you come across the five strivings, by Gurdjieff? Gurdjieff really knew a lot about the Work, and is highly respected as having given one of the key foundations for the work here in this forum.

The first striving is to have in our ordinary being existence everything satisfying and really necessary for our planetary body.

The second striving is to have a constant and unflagging need for self-perfection in the sense of being.

The third is the conscious striving to know ever more and more concerning the laws of World-Creation and World-Maintenance.

The fourth is the striving from the beginning of our existence to pay for our arising and our individuality as quickly as possible, in order afterwards to be free to lighten as much as possible the SORROW OF OUR COMMON FATHER.

The fifth striving is always to assist the most rapid perfectioning of other beings, both those similar to oneself and those of other forms, up to the degree of the sacred Martfotai, that is, up to the degree of self-individuality.

The five strivings live in us and are developed in parallel, but I think in light of your earlier question that it's most interesting that Gurdjieff does not mention assisting others until last.

I hope this is of some help, and, of course, FWIW :)

 

[luke wilson]

Thanks for the replies :)

Quote from Bud

By any chance have you read Laura's Wave series?

Not yet but i'll get round to it. There appears to be so much material to read. Makes you wonder, where to begin and when will one finish it all.

Quote from Bud

Even if Work didn't immediately involve others, it still wouldn't be selfish in a negative sense, anymore than watching where you step prevents falling in a hole, breaking a leg, going to the hospital, being out of work, losing a paycheck and not being able to feed your family. Does that make sense?

I think it does make sense. From what I can gather, you mean its not selfish to work on yourself the same way as its not selfish to try and not step into a hole while your walking or maybe get hit by a car while crossing the road. Interesting though when you say being out of work and losing a paycheck as compared to the other examples this seems to have more consequences for other people apart from you, like your family and for example the people your work affects eg. lets say you work get the paycheck and your family benefits but lets say you're a foreclosure officer and your job is to kick people out there homes... in one way, others are benefitting while others arent.... does this constitute selfishness that can have consequences on your progress? what makes this even more interesting is, lets say this is the only job you can get, surely one has to take it or does the universe only care about the bottom line..

Quote from Endymion

Have you come across the five strivings, by Gurdjieff? Gurdjieff really knew a lot about the Work, and is highly respected as having given one of the key foundations for the work here in this forum.


Quote from: Gurdjieff
The first striving is to have in our ordinary being existence everything satisfying and really necessary for our planetary body.

The second striving is to have a constant and unflagging need for self-perfection in the sense of being.

The third is the conscious striving to know ever more and more concerning the laws of World-Creation and World-Maintenance.

The fourth is the striving from the beginning of our existence to pay for our arising and our individuality as quickly as possible, in order afterwards to be free to lighten as much as possible the SORROW OF OUR COMMON FATHER.

The fifth striving is always to assist the most rapid perfectioning of other beings, both those similar to oneself and those of other forms, up to the degree of the sacred Martfotai, that is, up to the degree of self-individuality.

No i havent come across the 5 strivings by Gurdjieffs. I am guessing he is someone who was important. The closest I have come about learning about him was watching a movie that was meant to be about his life and I didnt even finish it (all i can remember about it was seeing people doing all sorts of weird dances and i didnt understand why) - but then again I had no idea who he was and what his life was about. Anyways, I think I understand 1,2,3 and 5. What I dont understand is what 4 means exactly. why would we want to pay for our arising and individuality? Why as quickly as possible? And pay how? and who is our common father and why is he in sorrow?

Thanks again for the feedback.

What does FWIW mean?

 

[Lilou]

FWIW = for what it's worth. Other common abbreviations, OSIT = or so I think, IMO = in my opinion, IMHO = in my humble opinion.

Forumites will also use abbreviations for books, ie) ISOTM = In Search of the Miraculous.

Welcome to the forum luke wilson.

 

[kenlee]

Anyways, I think I understand 1,2,3 and 5. What I dont understand is what 4 means exactly. why would we want to pay for our arising and individuality? Why as quickly as possible? And pay how? and who is our common father and why is he in sorrow?

Thanks again for the feedback.

What does FWIW mean?

Hi Luke Wilson, as Bud suggested it would be a good idea to completely read the The Wave Series in its entirety. After that then the The Adventures Series. I think a lot of the answers to your questions can be found there.

Regarding your question about the 4th striving of Gurdjieff's its my understanding that it refers to what he calls 'conscious labor and intentional suffering' which is described in the Wave here

Here’s a small except from that link which talks about it:

Gurdjieff's teachings became known as the Fourth Way as opposed to the three ways that had, as far as we can tell, evolved out of the very religious and social structures that we may think are in place for the purpose of keeping us imprisoned. This is what Gurdjieff meant when he said that many are hypnotized into believing they are Men or Magicians. The problem with these three ways, as we have already discussed, is that they concentrate on only one of the three centers in man: bodily discipline, mental development or the "way of the heart" - Love. Gurdjieff's way incorporated all of these through a form of Conscious Labor and Intentional suffering.

What did Gurdjieff mean by these things? No two of his students have ever given the same answer. The only thing we can think about this fact is that the understanding of his students was based upon their effort, experience and level of being.

Conscious labor quite obviously does NOT refer to digging ditches or breaking rocks, though it COULD. It must refer to efforts we are not accustomed to making in our ordinary lives. Intentional suffering obviously cannot be present if a person is asleep because it depends on conscience and, according to Gurdjieff, until an individual is awake, they are neither conscious nor do they have a REAL conscience. For Gurdjieff, conscience and consciousness cannot be separated.

Since Gurdjieff is mentioned in the Wave it would also help if you read Ouspensky’s Book In Search Of The Miraculous just to get acquainted with his ideas which is on the recommended reading list here.

It’s a lot of reading but it sure is worth it!

 

[Buddy]

luke, kenlee's advice is right on. In order to understand selfishness, or self-orientedness, you will want to understand the Service To Self and Service To Others polarity. That will lead you to exploring how to move farther from STS and towards STO by DOing Work...raising your Frequency Resonance Vibration (FRV).

In order to grasp all that you will need to read Laura's Wave series. Her Adventures With Cassiopaea would be an excellent follow-up.

That is the very basic recommended reading suggested to all members in order to get up to speed, otherwise one question simply leads to another, forever and ever, while all those questions have already been answered. Like Kenlee said...it will really be worth the effort! :)


Edit: correction