Music deaths creating Legends

T.C.

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
After seeing the post about music deaths I remembered my own theory on the subject and thought I'd share it.

For my first example, I'd like to talk abbout Led Zeppelin.

From 1968 to 1974, the first four albums, Zeppelin absolutely rocked the world. From 1975 to 1979 their music was less appreciated. Their later stuff was still amazing, but they always went in new directions with their sound. This, I think, led to the earlier fans, those who liked the more rawcus and energetic bluesey rock, to say things along the lines of "I didn't like the later stuff, they lost it". Early 1980, the drummer John Bonham died from a pulmonary edema.

Jimi Hendrix's career and life was most interesting from the view point of being a frustrated artist and manipulated by those around him. Before he died, his musical direction had changed also. He was getting more into Jazz influenced stuff. Then, funnily enough this wasn't part of the point I'm getting to but he also died of a pulmonary edema.

The point is that if they hadn't died, they wouldn't have been remembered for the stuff that everyone remembers them for now. If Zeppelin had continued through the 80's their sound would have been so different that it would have masked over the period that commercial markets called "at their best", and the same would have gone for Hendrix.

Then when we take people like Bob Marley, John Lennon, Jim Morrison, Jeff Buckley, Nick Drake, Janis Jopplin, Robert Johnson, it could certainly be said that they could have offered alot to the world with their influence and music, but in death, they live forever. They become the saints of the musical world and effect people in maybe an even more profound way because their deaths come across almost like those of martyrs.

As far as "higher influences" go, I've often wondered if these amazing artists were here for a reason. And that when they had done what they came here to do, their mission accomplished, they didn't need to be here anymore. And if "the general law" didn't like what they were achieving and had a hand in their demise then, it ended up backfiring.
 
Even if Zeppelin started playing polka in the 80's, it wouldn't change the fact that their earlier stuff ROCKS, and that's what they are remembered for, same with Hendrix and the rest. I don't think their deaths has any real effect...the Rolling Stones are still popular for example (if you can consider those skeletons still alive :) ). Johnny Cash was one of my favorites growing up, but he was also one of my grandpa's favorites when he grew up. It wasn't an early tragic death that drew me to his music, but good stories, nice rhythm and heart.
To me a martyr dies for a specific reason to further their cause. Lennon to me is a great example of a martyr. His message was peace and he was murdered promoting it, and that's why I respect him as a person, but that's not necessarily why I like him as a musician. On the other hand choking to death on your own vomit is not the most saintly of ways to die and won't get you much respect in my books, but if you can play drums like Bonzo did then I don't care how you live/die. I think these people would have been legends no matter how they died, but through their deaths they became almost mythicized, like Icarus flying too close to the sun or Lucifer attempting to usurp the throne from God, their over-zealousness caused their own downfall. So, I mainly agree with your point, but I believe the groups/people were already insanely popular before they died, and would still be legends but not in the same sense (in terms of myths, they would be Santas instead of Jesus's if you catch my drift).
fwiw
 
Thomas C said:
The point is that if they hadn't died, they wouldn't have been remembered for the stuff that everyone remembers them for now. If Zeppelin had continued through the 80's their sound would have been so different that it would have masked over the period that commercial markets called "at their best", and the same would have gone for Hendrix.

Then when we take people like Bob Marley, John Lennon, Jim Morrison, Jeff Buckley, Nick Drake, Janis Jopplin, Robert Johnson, it could certainly be said that they could have offered alot to the world with their influence and music, but in death, they live forever. They become the saints of the musical world and effect people in maybe an even more profound way because their deaths come across almost like those of martyrs.
I don't see it the same way, although I used to. There is certainly a kind of "romance" attached to the idea of those big-name musicians that "lived hard and died young", but I think this idea is largely manufactured to glamorize the music industry. And who is the music industry run by? Psychopaths.

Consider artists like Roger Waters and David Gilmour of Pink Floyd. They are still alive today and yet it cannot be denied that their music influenced people equally as much (if not more than) some of the names you mentioned above. Sure, people can say, "they lost it" in their later works, but does such a subjective opinion take anything away from the brilliance of the earlier music they DID create?

This idea of the "musical martyr" is a concept that speaks directly to the narcissist in each of us. It's like they were supposed to have had a "perfect life" - fame, fortune, creative genius, and a kind of "immortality" through their legacy - but this is often NOT the case, as the public does not usually get to see the behind-the-scenes suffering and manipulation that such people are subjected to. Such people are machines, just like everyone else - FAR from perfect. They may have been born with a certain amount of energetic potential for creativity, but it is most likely that their lives were co-opted to serve the General Law completely.

I personally tend to wonder if the entire "music industry" is a construct intended to ensure that people with a certain "energetic potential" get their energies directed in a particular way that does not destabilise the overall frequency of the Matrix, and even provide a degree of nourishment for it? When we look at say, Britney Spears, it seems quite obvious that she is a completely manufactured pop idol. Is it "degrading" to suggest that Jimi Hendrix and Jim Morrison are no different? That their whole lives might be a complete fabrication intended to divert their creative potential away from really DOing anything to change the reality of the mass consciousness of humanity?

From my own experience in the music industry as a DJ, I can quite honestly state that big-time success will never happen unless one is willing to "play the hierarchy game" - a certain amount of sucking up, back-scratching and back-stabbing is required no matter how good any music is that you might create. I would even suggest that proficiency in the former skills can make up for a severe deficiency of the latter.

Kind of puts a more humbling slant on the idea of the "musical martyr", no? ;)
 
I accidentally happend to stumble upon this site as I was doing a search on ufologist William Cooper. I would like to share with you that I am involved in a project to let people know that former DOORS singer Jim Morrison is still alive.
Jim faked his death in 1971 for many reasons. I am not sure which theory holds more validity the others. In a video produced by Rodeoswest, Inc. a tape recording of Jim says that he had grown quite infuriated at the stipulations constantly made on the DOORS by their record producers. If you listen to the final interview with Jim done by ROLLING STONE and now available on youtube you will see there are numerous other issues as well.
In an interview with DOORS organist Ray Manzarek, Ray sarcastically asks the interviewee if he had not heard that Jim is still alive, that he lives as a cowboy in rural Oregon. I have been on this story and in communication with the propriotor of Rodeoswest, Inc. and even members of the Morrison clan. No one wants to put a finger on who this cowboy in rural OR really is, but all he sings is DOORS songs. It's Jim.
 
jlizard said:
I accidentally happend to stumble upon this site as I was doing a search on ufologist William Cooper. I would like to share with you that I am involved in a project to let people know that former DOORS singer Jim Morrison is still alive.
Does this project have a name? With whom are you associated?


jlizard said:
Jim faked his death in 1971 for many reasons. I am not sure which theory holds more validity the others. In a video produced by Rodeoswest, Inc. a tape recording of Jim says that he had grown quite infuriated at the stipulations constantly made on the DOORS by their record producers.
Uhmm, yes, record producer stipulations could certainly drive one to fake their own death - sorry, I'm joking in a rather sarcastic manner. Perhaps it might further your cause to actually present some data that could be examined.

jlizard said:
If you listen to the final interview with Jim done by ROLLING STONE and now available on youtube you will see there are numerous other issues as well.
Well, it's true that few and far between is the pop star who doesn't have innumerable 'problems'.


jlizard said:
In an interview with DOORS organist Ray Manzarek, Ray sarcastically asks the interviewee if he had not heard that Jim is still alive, that he lives as a cowboy in rural Oregon. I have been on this story and in communication with the propriotor of Rodeoswest, Inc. and even members of the Morrison clan. No one wants to put a finger on who this cowboy in rural OR really is, but all he sings is DOORS songs. It's Jim.
So, do you think there is no possibility that Ray was just being sarcastic? Also, I can't imagine, after some thirty plus years, anyone still singing just DOORs songs - and I'm a fan - but that's just my take on it.
 
jlizard said:
I accidentally happend to stumble upon this site as I was doing a search on ufologist William Cooper. I would like to share with you that I am involved in a project to let people know that former DOORS singer Jim Morrison is still alive.
Jim faked his death in 1971 for many reasons. I am not sure which theory holds more validity the others. In a video produced by Rodeoswest, Inc. a tape recording of Jim says that he had grown quite infuriated at the stipulations constantly made on the DOORS by their record producers. If you listen to the final interview with Jim done by ROLLING STONE and now available on youtube you will see there are numerous other issues as well.
In an interview with DOORS organist Ray Manzarek, Ray sarcastically asks the interviewee if he had not heard that Jim is still alive, that he lives as a cowboy in rural Oregon. I have been on this story and in communication with the propriotor of Rodeoswest, Inc. and even members of the Morrison clan. No one wants to put a finger on who this cowboy in rural OR really is, but all he sings is DOORS songs. It's Jim.
Mazererk wrote a book called A Poet in Exile, if I remember the title right. I've read it. It's a very catching story. In summary, Manzarek writes in first person telling his 'story'. He gets an 'anonymous' cryptic postcard in the mail, winds up flying to the Seychelle Islands (way way way off the east coast of Africa), bumps into Jim's alleged very young son, eventually finds Jim, spends some days with him, they discuss putting The Doors band back together, agree to do it, and then Jim supposed dies of throat cancer (or something similar) before that can happen. It isn't said in the book whether it's fiction or fact. Manzarek leaves people to decide. Either way, such stuff certainly helps sell Doors records... Lol.
 
According to a book recently released :
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/showbiz/showbiznews.html?in_article_id=466947&in_page_id=1773

The shocking truth about how my pal Jim Morrison REALLY died
by PETER ALLEN - More by this author »Last updated at 21:35pm on 7th July 2007


Morrison was thought to have died from natural causes
Police may reopen 36-year-old case after nightclub boss claims rock star was killed by heroin overdose and that drug dealers launched cover-up by moving body


For more than three decades it has remained one of rock music's most tantalising mysteries.

Why did Jim Morrison, legendary lead singer of The Doors, suddenly collapse and die in his Paris apartment, aged only 27?

The official death certificate states he died in the bath of "natural causes".

But now, in an exclusive interview with The Mail on Sunday, a former close friend of the singer says he knows the truth.

According to Sam Bernett, Morrison died of a massive heroin overdose in the toilet of a nightclub he was managing, the Rock 'n' Roll Circus on the French capital's fabled Left Bank.

Bernett, 62, a French-born former New York Times journalist, claims the death was then covered up by two drug dealers who transferred Morrison's body from the club to the singer's apartment and dumped it in the bath.

Bernett was then warned by the club's owners never to tell anybody about what he had seen.

This extraordinary testament is contained in Bernett's forthcoming book "The End - Jim Morrison" soon to be published in France.

The allegations are being taken so seriously that they are being examined by the French authorities and may lead to the investigation into Morrison's death being reopened.

Jim Morrison first arrived in Paris in March 1971. One of the most widely-recognised stars in the world, thanks to hits such as Break on Through and Light My Fire, he had just finished recording what was to become The Door's most popular album, LA Woman.

He lived a notoriously wild life, abusing both alcohol and drugs, and soon became a regular at the Rock 'n' Roll Circus, a club frequented by the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd, Eric Clapton and Jimi Hendrix.

It also played host to trapeze artists and, on one memorable occasion, a live tiger and monkeys from a nearby circus.

In the early hours of 3 July 1971, the underground disco was heaving with 500 revellers, including 24-year-old British siren Marianne Faithfull who had recently split up with Mick Jagger. Morrison, who was living in Paris with his girlfriend Pamela Courson, arrived at about 1am.

"I greeted Jim as I always did," recalled Bernett from his home in Paris.

"He didn't look in great form, and immediately went to his usual spot at the bar and ordered a bottle of vodka. He was also drinking beers.

"I was used to talking about everything with him - from Janice Joplin to the beatniks - but that night it was just a bit of small talk.

"He'd come in to pick up heroin for Pam. He was always collecting drugs for her and the club was full of dealers."

According to Bernett, Morrison bought the heroin from two men working for Jean de Breteuil, a French playboy and drug dealer.

"The dealers who Jim was talking to were well known," said Bernett.

"Both were French guys in their 20s. I knew what they were up to, and kept an eye out for Jim. He disappeared to the toilets at around 2am.

"Then, about half an hour later, a cloakroom attendant came up to me and told me someone was locked in one of the cubicles and wasn't coming out. It was then that I got a bouncer to smash the door down.'

Bernett was met by the sight of Morrison's body, slumped on the toilet.

In his book, he writes: "I recognised the US Army combat jacket and the riding boots from the Camargue region of France which he never took off. It was Jim Morrison, with his head between his knees, his arms dangling.

"For a few seconds our eyes were glued to the unmoving corpse. We were mesmerised by the baffling spectacle.

"The flamboyant singer of The Doors, the cool and good-looking Californian guy, was now a collapsed and inert lump lying in a nightclub toilet.

"Seeing Jim in such a bad way was pretty awful. We were certain he'd been snorting heroin because there was foam coming out of his lips as well as blood. He was scared of needles so never injected drugs. He just snorted them."

Bernett's first reaction was to send for one of his regular customers, a doctor. The medic, who Bernett refuses to name, "recognised Morrison but kept his cool. Very calmly, and expertly, he examined the body for a few seconds.

"He pushed Jim's head back, lifted his eyelids, opened his mouth, and fixed his ear to his chest to listen to his heartbeat. He looked for marks and bruises on the body and the arms.

"It was a quick and professional examination. His diagnosis was very confident: 'This man is dead. Apparently the victim of a cardiac arrest.' The doctor was not stupid and spoke of a lethal overdose."

In the meantime, Morrison's two "friends" from the bar who had sold him the heroin had arrived. Ignoring the doctor's verdict, they insisted the singer 'had just fainted' and they would take care of him.

Then, according to Bernett, they lifted Morrison's body out of the toilets and along a corridor that linked the Circus with Alcazar, the club next door which still exists today.

That was the last Bernett saw of the body but, from Alcazar, he says it would have been easy to place Morrison in a car or van waiting in the small side street outside, and then take the body to the singer's apartment across the river in Rue Beautreillis.

Minutes after the tragedy, a representative of the club's owner - a well-connected Paris businessman called Paul Pacini still alive, we are trying to get a comment from him] - warned Bernett not to tell anyone what had happened.

Bernett says: "I was told, "Since Morrison's friends want to take him with them, we have nothing more to do with this story.

"The club has no responsibility for what happens here. It was a sad accident, certainly, but that's fate. So we saw nothing, we heard nothing, we shut up! OK? It's what we better do to avoid a scandal."

Bernett adds that he saw little point in calling the emergency services, as he was convinced Morrison was already dead and nothing could be done for him.

And he says anyone else in the club that night who had an inkling of what went on - including Marianne Faithfull - was also sworn to secrecy.

Incredibly, after Morrison's body was found in his apartment, no proper investigation into his death was carried out.

Pamela Courson, Morrison's girlfriend since they were at university together in Los Angeles, swore on oath that her lover had been alive and well the night before.

She told police they had been to the cinema together and then returned home at 1am - the time Bernett claims Morrison was arriving at The Circus - where she did the washing up and he watched a film, before they retired to bed to listen to music.

Then, in the middle of the night, Morrison had woken up coughing and she had watched him leave the room to take a bath "and relax".

Max Vassille, a compliant French doctor, was happy to write off Morrison's demise as "death from natural causes", pointing out that the singer had been suffering from a serious stomach ulcer and asthma attacks after moving from America earlier in the year.

He ruled that no autopsy was required, as there was "no evidence of foul play".

Vassille and Pamela Courson have both since died.

Morrison's official death report, still filed at Paris town hall, has been used ever since to quash countless conspiracy theories ranging from security agency plots to theories that Morrison faked his own death to escape the trappings of fame.

As for Marianne Faithfull, Bernett says she and Jean de Breteuil left Paris for Morocco the moment they heard about Morrison's death.

"De Breteuil was Pam's dealer, and had supplied the heroin on the night," said Bernett.

"He and Marianne immediately packed their bags and headed for Casablanca, where De Breteuil had relatives. They didn't want to hang about.

"Marianne never mentioned Jim again. She won't talk about what happened in the club to this day."

The Mail on Sunday contacted Marianne Faithfull but she was unavailable for comment. De Breteuil died of an overdose not long after Morrison.

Bernett, a former journalist who now presents programmes on French national radio, says he has finally decided to break his silence despite risking prosecution for covering up the death in his club.

"I was 26 in 1971," he said. "Today, I'm past 60, and want to get rid of my heavy load. At least everything is now out there to be discussed. I've said what I have to say."

According to French law, criminal cases cannot be reopened after 20 years have lapsed. However, civil law - as well as international law - may provide an opportunity for investigators to re-open the case.

A spokesman for France's Police National said: "The new evidence will have to be considered.
Well, who knows if it's the truth, or some sensational revelation just to make money, or whatever ? At least it needs serious examination !
 
i'm sure a quick question to the C's could clear things up.

Q: when did jim morrison die?

Q: did kurt cobain commit suicide?

Q: was there any foul play involved in the deaths of jimi hendrix, janis joplin, brain jones?

and i'd also have a non-musical question - what the hell happened to brilliant comedian phil hartman? was his wife greenbaumed?
 
I feel like too many of music's greats die young. It's odd, it just seems to happen so regularly, and with all the big names.

Elvis
John Lennon
Jimi Hendrix
Kurt Cobain
Jim Morrison
Brad Nowell (lead singer of sublime)
Janis Joplin
Brian Jones (Rolling Stones)
Jeff Buckley (independent singer/song writer)
Jon Bonham (Zepplin)
Syd Vicious
Frank Zappa
Aaliyah
Richie Valens & Buddy Holly

It's like an archetype or something.

Edit: Heh list making is fun.
 
Cyre2067 said:
I feel like too many of music's greats die young. It's odd, it just seems to happen so regularly, and with all the big names.
Add to that list Stevie Ray Vaughn and several people in Lynyrd Skynyrd. All those folks died in aircraft crashes.
 
mark said:
Cyre2067 said:
I feel like too many of music's greats die young. It's odd, it just seems to happen so regularly, and with all the big names.
Add to that list Stevie Ray Vaughn and several people in Lynyrd Skynyrd. All those folks died in aircraft crashes.
Such is the twisted time in that we live, all the crap ones that pump out insipid pop keep going and going... Do we need any better examples of the 'terror of the situation'?
 
Iconoclast said:
i'm sure a quick question to the C's could clear things up.

Q: when did jim morrison die?

Q: did kurt cobain commit suicide?

Q: was there any foul play involved in the deaths of jimi hendrix, janis joplin, brain jones?

and i'd also have a non-musical question - what the hell happened to brilliant comedian phil hartman? was his wife greenbaumed?
I've often thought in a similar manner about some of my most pressing questions: "If only I could ask the C's that question, it would put my mind at ease" or whatever. But at the end of the day we are supposed to do our own research and arrive at answers ourselves. It's all part of learning.

On the topic of music "legends", I am really quite averse to the whole concept/construction. Because that's what it really is -- an artificial construction. How can you objectively say that one particular musician is a "legend" and another one is simply ordinary, or "good, but not excellent"? Yes, you could quite easily draw up two broad categories of music -- one containing "absolute rubbish" and the other containing "better quality music", and 85% of people would probably agree on the contents of each broad division, which is about as objective as you could possibly get. But dividing up the "better quality music" into finer categories such as "legend material" and "good, but not legendary" is really always going to be subjective. For example, I classify all those so-called "legends" as being in the "better quality music" category, but frankly I don't find any of their music legendary. I've never been into that kind of music; it does nothing for me. And I know many people who feel the same way.

One last question I have which relates to all this is: Why is is that in all these so-called "lists of legends" you almost never find any women? Does that tie in with the patriarchal nature of society at the level of "legend-creating" (i.e. through the music-industry constructs); or at the level of actual artistry (i.e. the encouragement, from a young age, of only males, to use their full potential); or perhaps it's even a biological thing? I don't know, but I'm interested in what people have got to say about this, because it does seem like the music industry and its construction of legends is extremely patriarchal.
 
One needs a dead body to create a myth.
Third_Density_Resident said:
Why is is that in all these so-called "lists of legends" you almost never find any women?
Minnie Riperton?
But it`s true, hardly any female music performer or movie actresses come
to mind, who died a premature death while being at the peak of success.*
Maybe women deal better with fame or they just tend to prolong their destruction/
suffering (Judy Garland?) rather then ending it in a flash.
Almost an analogy to sex (?).

* movies: Jean Harlow, Carole Lombard, Marilyn Monroe
 
Telperion said:
I'm hoping Amy Winehouse will not be added to this list...that situation makes me really sad.
It might sound strange but, I can't help thinking that she's where she wants to be.
 

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