News on robert hare

This article is about Robert Hares, psychopath expert, lawsuit on what he feels is,“unfair characterizations of my motives and actions in a long-standing controversy.”

Very interesting read, and shows what seems to be attempts to corrupt his work.

http://www.straight.com/article-328927/vancouver/ubc-psychopathy-expert-robert-hare-responds-academic-criticism-over-lawsuit-threat
 
Thanks lamalamalamalama. This story was posted on SOTT a few days ago. :)


http://www.sott.net/articles/show/210942-Psychopathy-Academic-Battle-Delays-Publication-by-3-Years
 
Maybe this should be a new thread entitled "Robert Hare on the News" instead...

Driving to work today I had the radio on NPR and they were running a story about Robert Hare.

_http://www.npr.org/2011/05/26/136619689/can-a-test-really-tell-whos-a-psychopath

They discuss the test he developed and how it is now used in determining sentencing and parole opportunities for criminals. It seems to me like the topic of psychopathy is making it into the mainstream media more frequently. However, the story seems to focus mainly on psychopathy in individuals associated with violent crimes, neglecting to mention that the successful ones go undetected.


edit: This looks like it is a follow up story or extension of the story they ran a couple of days ago about Jon Ronson's book _http://www.npr.org/2011/05/21/136462824/a-psychopath-walks-into-a-room-can-you-tell
 
Is Criminal Behavior a Central Component of Pyschopathy? by Jennifer L. Skeem and David J. Cooke should be read by those who are interested in the use of the Hare Psychopathy Checklist by the criminal justice system for sentencing, probation, treatment, and parole decisions. The paper contends the Hare Psychopathy Checklist uses criminal behavior to diagnose psychopathy to predict criminal behavior. Hare's checklist is a classic Catch-22 for those caught up in the criminal justice system.

I think serious questions are considered in the paper and Dr. Robert Hare's behavior in attempting to suppress these questions casts doubt on his motive and method, in my opinion. I have long considered the Hare Psychopathy Checklist as flawed in methodology and hence subject to potential abuse by the criminal justice system. The paper examines these concerns in detail. George Bush would probably not be flagged as a psychopath by the Hare Psychopathy Checklist, since he has never been charged with crimes by a criminal justice system he controlled. Hare's Psychopathy Checklist diverts the study and understanding of psychopathy from those psychopaths who thrive in a ponerized political and economic system, to many normal human beings who cannot or will not conform to the norms and laws of a deviant society.

Source: http://www.law.berkeley.edu/files/Skeembackgrpaper1%282%29.pdf
 
go2 said:
Hare's Psychopathy Checklist diverts the study and understanding of psychopathy from those psychopaths who thrive in a ponerized political and economic system, to many normal human beings who cannot or will not conform to the norms and laws of a deviant society.

Source: _http://www.law.berkeley.edu/files/Skeembackgrpaper1%282%29.pdf

Interesting. I was unaware of this past controversy.

Seems to me that Hare has always encouraged investigation of corporate and political psychopathy by other researchers. Maybe it's just that his own work naturally involved criminal or suspected criminal behaviors and his written work just seems to reflect that?

Anyway, Skeem and Cooke's main concerns seem to be with 1) a perceived movement away from “Cleckleyan psychopathy” and its strong relationship to emotional detachment, or in their own words:

The two-factor model and PCL measures “actually deviate significantly from [their] own theoretical underpinnings” (Rogers, 2001, p. 302). If Cleckleyan psychopathy is the target, the model is overly saturated with criminality and impulsivity (Blackburn, 2005; Forouzan & Cooke, 2005) and omits such key features as absence of nervousness. At the level of description (let alone explanation), the measure and derivative model are inconsistent with their identified conceptual roots.
[...]
Although criminality was not fundamental to Cleckley’s (1976) conception of psychopathy, he included inadequately motivated antisocial behavior as a descriptor. He noted that in the rare event that “serious criminal tendencies do emerge in the psychopath, they gain ready expression” (Cleckley, 1976, p. 262). The implication is that psychopaths’ affective deficit (i.e., semantic aphasia) leaves them uninhibited from acting on any given urge (Brinkley et al., 2004).

It is not criminal behavior per se but the motivation or (lack of) explanation for such behavior that is key (see also Karpman, 1948). Simple counts of criminal acts (e.g., juvenile delinquency, revocation of conditional release) cannot address this subtlety. In keeping with this notion, clinicians’ ratings of “Cleckleyan psychopathy” are more strongly related to emotional detachment (old Factor 1) than antisocial behavior (old Factor 2; Hare, 1991).


...and 2) perceiving the Reification (a complete and concretized version) of the PCL–R, or in their own words:

First, the 20 items of the PCL–R were selected over 2 decades ago, based on their psychometrics and ability to predict global ratings of “the Cleckley conception of psychopathy” (Hare, 1991, p. 3). Although much relevant research has accumulated since then, there have been no substantive changes to those items. The implicit assumption is that the measure arrived in near-perfect condition.

Second, theories have been referenced to preserve the PCL item set and two-factor model, rather than to inform and revise them. Hare and Neumann (2005) recently argued that criminal behavior is central to psychopathy. Corollaries of this argument are that the two-factor model and existing PCL item set adequately represent psychopathy.

Rather than reference the conceptualization of psychopathy on which their model ostensibly is based (Cleckley, 1976), the authors instead referenced a theory that binds psychopathy to criminality: an “evolutionary psychology perspective [that] psychopathy is a heritable life strategy in which a central feature is the early emergence of antisocial behavior, including aggressive sexuality” (Hare & Neumann, 2005, p. 58). Notably, this perspective rests on little evidence.


So, essentially, Skeem and Cooke's issue seems to boil down mainly to this:

On both conceptual and empirical grounds, we believe the evidence falls in favor of viewing criminal behavior as a correlate, rather than component, of psychopathy.

But I could be wrong or off somewhere.
 
From the ‘Violence Risk Assessment Training and Consultancy’ firm, whereby Professor Cook is the facilitator of the PCL-R workshop, which is current, it is written:

Psychopathic personality disorder is an important risk factor for violence. Additionally, it has relevance for treatment and risk management.
The Psychopathy Checklist Revised (PCL-R) is currently the best validated measure of psychopathy. The use of the PCL-R has become widespread across many agencies; it provides a standard methodology for assessing this important risk factor.

In particular, emphasis is given to the clinical information derived from the instrument and how that information can be used in risk violence formulation. Using a variety of teaching modalities didactic, interactive and practical exercises, this workshop will introduce participants to the PCL-R.
A video case will be used to allow participants to apply the PCL-R ratings and obtain feedback. The strengths and limitations of the PCL-R will be discussed. The PCL-R manual is supplied with this course.

http://www.violenceriskassessment.com/PCL-R.php

It will be interesting to see what develops here. The subject seems indeed to be much more discussed on the airwaves these days, but generally to the criminal construct, but also ever increasing to other societal areas, such as the political and corporate worlds. As such, how much damage control will there be by those who don’t like the light, to keep it off these subjects and keep it focused on criminality?
 
Parallax said:
It will be interesting to see what develops here. The subject seems indeed to be much more discussed on the airwaves these days, but generally to the criminal construct, but also ever increasing to other societal areas, such as the political and corporate worlds. As such, how much damage control will there be by those who don’t like the light, to keep it off these subjects and keep it focused on criminality?

The study of psychopathy has the same risks as nuclear physics and molecular genetics. Nuclear weapons and GMO food are the result of science in the hands of the unethical and criminal. Government and corporate institutions, infiltrated and dominated by psychopaths, will use the half truths of psychopathy to justify genocide and indeterminate incarceration of those human beings who are capable of understanding and resisting increasing psychopathic influence. The criminal justice system is an example of ponerized institutions using the Hare Psychopathy Checklist. The internal contradictions of the PCL-R are a dubious method of diagnosing psychopathy. The PCL-R measures risk for violent behavior. It does not measure psychopathy. It is an abuse of science to conflate these separate phenomenon. Cleckley's original work does not equate psychopathy with violence so much as with emotional deficit. The conflation of psychopathy with risk for violence is the issue being suppressed by Dr. Robert Hare and the criminal justice industry. The criminal justice industry is interested in justifying a police state apparatus, not in the truth of psychopathy, which might point the finger at those who advocate and implement the pseudo- science of the PCL-R. Soon, calling someone a psychopath will be the equivalent of calling someone a terrorist. It is an abuse of language and science, justifying the abuse of human beings.
 
go2 said:
The internal contradictions of the PCL-R are a dubious method of diagnosing psychopathy. The PCL-R measures risk for violent behavior. It does not measure psychopathy. It is an abuse of science to conflate these separate phenomenon. Cleckley's original work does not equate psychopathy with violence so much as with emotional deficit. The conflation of psychopathy with risk for violence is the issue being suppressed by Dr. Robert Hare and the criminal justice industry.

I do not think this is an accurate assessment of the PCL-R. It does NOT conflate psychopathy with violence. It's not like you can score 30 on the checklist and because you're not violent, not be considered a psychopath. The fact that it predicts violent behavior does NOT mean that violent behavior is an essential criterion for psychopathy according to the test. From everything I've read, it seems to me that the PCL-R does a pretty good job of SEPARATING violent psychopaths from violent non-psychopaths. I think that if anything, its flaw is that it is better at identifying criminal psychopaths than more high-brow psychopaths. That's understandable, given its history. But that's also why other measures have been developed and are being developed, e.g. the B-Scan, which is used in corporate settings. That said, I don't think the test is perfect, just that it isn't as bad as you're making it out to be.

As a reminder, here are the items from the test:

Factor 1
Aggressive narcissism

1. Glibness/superficial charm
2. Grandiose sense of self-worth
3. Pathological lying
4. Cunning/manipulative
5. Lack of remorse or guilt
6. Emotionally shallow
7. Callous/lack of empathy
8. Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Factor 2
Socially deviant lifestyle

1. Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
2. Parasitic lifestyle
3. Poor behavioral control
4. Promiscuous sexual behavior
5. Lack of realistic, long-term goals
6. Impulsiveness
7. Irresponsibility
8. Juvenile delinquency
9. Early behavioral problems
10. Revocation of conditional release

Traits not correlated with either factor

1. Many short-term marital relationships
2. Criminal versatility

Violence does NOT make up a large component of the test. However, when you're dealing with violent psychopaths (i.e. the types usually found in prisons), then yes, it would naturally predict future violence. Psychopaths rarely learn new tricks, after all.

Soon, calling someone a psychopath will be the equivalent of calling someone a terrorist. It is an abuse of language and science, justifying the abuse of human beings.

I agree with this, however. The Nazis did it. However, I think Hare's test and conception of psychopathy will have to undergo a lot of distortion for this to be the case, IMO.
 
I also caught part of the NPR program yesterday. Psychopathy does seem to be getting more play in the MSM. But I haven't heard any mention of the political dimension.

While listening to the program that the PCL-R could be easily "gamed" by psychopaths. They have access to the Internet and could be come familiar with the survey and it's intent. The intelligent ones could then answer the questions in such a way to lower their score.

Mac
 
Approaching Infinity said:
go2 said:
The internal contradictions of the PCL-R are a dubious method of diagnosing psychopathy. The PCL-R measures risk for violent behavior. It does not measure psychopathy. It is an abuse of science to conflate these separate phenomenon. Cleckley's original work does not equate psychopathy with violence so much as with emotional deficit. The conflation of psychopathy with risk for violence is the issue being suppressed by Dr. Robert Hare and the criminal justice industry.

I do not think this is an accurate assessment of the PCL-R. It does NOT conflate psychopathy with violence.

Factor 2 measures socially deviant lifestyle. Does this imply criminality? I should have said, that the PCL-R conflates psychopathy with criminal behavior. Do you agree that the PCL-R conflates psychopathy with criminal behavior? Have you read Is Criminal Behavior a Central Component of Psychopathy?, AI? The paper asserts this is indeed the case and this conflation is a obstacle to further research into psychopathy. The PCL-R has powerful support from the criminal justice system whose concern is risk assessment, not understanding psychopathy. This agenda is conflating social deviance with psychopathy. Many psychopaths are considered to be "pillars of the community". These individuals are not flagged by the socially deviant lifestyle factors, which are more likely to be based on moral or political expedience, not the result of or the definition of psychopathy. I am not trained in criminal justice or psychology and would be interested in your thoughts on the paper I will quote.

Is Criminal Behavior a Central Component of Psychopathy? said:
[...]

PCL–R weighs antisocial behavior as strongly as—if not more strongly than—traits of emotional detachment in assessing psychopathy. Without a history of violent or criminal behavior, even an individual with pronounced interpersonal and affective traits of psychopathy is unlikely to surpass the PCL–R’s threshold score for diagnosing psychopathy.

[...]

The business success of “snakes in suits” (Babiak & Hare, 2006) contradicts the notion that classic criminal behavior is central to psychopathy

[...]

Hare (1996a) has long spoken of the psychopaths among us who infiltrate political, law enforcement, government, and other social structures: “Thanks to Hare, we now understand that the great majority of psychopaths are not violent criminals and never will be. Hundreds of thousands of psychopaths live and work and prey among us” (Hercz, 2001, ¶ 11). The two-factor model poorly identifies this “great majority of psychopaths” who escape contact with the legal system or simply express their psychopathic tendencies in a manner that does not conflict with the law.

[...]

This suggests that callous and unemotional traits—not necessarily antisocial behavior—are key features of psychopathy. Moreover, there is no compelling longitudinal evidence that psychopathy is highly stable from childhood to adulthood. Indeed, of adolescents with extremely high scores (upper 5%) on a PCL-derived measure of psychopathy during adolescence, less than one third were classified as psychopathic by a PCL measure in early adulthood (Lynam, Caspi, Moffitt, Loeber, & Stouthamer-Loeber, 2007). Measures that focus more exclusively on emotional detachment might yield greater stability estimates (see Vincent, 2002)

[...]

Recently, criminal behavior was deemed “the ultimate criterion for a measure of psychopathy” (Williams & Paulhus, 2004, p. 774). An iterative process of looping between theory and research is necessary to avoid further slippage toward the notion that psychopathy is merely a violent variant of antisocial personality disorder. Why has the field largely forgone this iterative process to embrace PCL–R measurement models as psychopathy?

Informed speculation about this issue is needed to identify potential barriers to future scientific progress. Of several potential explanations, three interacting factors that powerfully drive contemporary interest in the PCL–R and psychopathy emerge as most compelling to us.

First, the modern justice context has created a strong demand for identifying bad, dangerous people.

Second, the PCL measures, which include many malignant personality traits, have been shown to be useful in predicting violent and criminal behavior. In fact, the PCL–R has been lauded as an “unparalleled” single predictor of violence (Salekin et al., 1996, p. 211; cf. Cooke & Michie, 2006), and scholars have cautioned, “psychopathy [i.e., PCL–R scores] is such a robust and important risk factor for violence that failure to consider it may constitute professional negligence” (Hart, 1998, p. 133).

Third, this link between the PCL and violence has supported a myth that emotionally detached psychopaths callously use violence to achieve control over and exploit others. As far as the PCL is concerned, this notion rests on virtually no empirical support. The field’s pseudo-operationalism, then, may largely be a product of the fact that the PCL–R has proven useful in ways that make conceptual sense and fit modern societal demands.

The way in which the PCL–R is applied is consistent with this interpretation. First, although the PCL measures were developed to diagnose psychopathy, they overwhelmingly are applied as violence risk-assessment instruments. In a survey of 71 diplomates in forensic psychology, Tolman and Mullendore (2003) found that the psychological test used most often by diplomates to assess violence risk was the PCL–R. Indeed, diplomates used the PCL–R more than twice as often as well-validated risk-assessment instruments (Quinsey, Harris, Rice, & Cormier, 1998; Webster, Douglas, Eaves, & Hart, 1998).

Second, the PCL measures are used relatively often in legal proceedings, typically as a prosecution tool to meet the demands of sentencing (DeMatteo & Edens, 2006). To counter such strong practical forces toward pseudooperationalism, the process of understanding psychopathy must be separated from the enterprise of predicting violence. The field implicitly interprets the PCL measures’ association with violence as an indication that emotionally detached psychopaths use violence to prey upon others. This interpretation arguably explains the widespread use of the PCL measures.

A growing body of evidence suggests that the PCL measures’ predictive utility for violence cannot be attributed to their assessment of psychopathy per se (see Gendreau, Goggin, & Smith, 2002, 2003; Salekin et al., 1996; Serin, Peters, & Barbaree, 1990; Skeem, Miller, Mulvey, Tiemann, & Monahan, 2005; Skeem & 438 SKEEM AND COOKE Mulvey, 2001).

Instead, the lion’s share of the PCL’s predictive utility is attributable to its old Factor 2 assessment of antisocial behavior and traits that are not specific to psychopathic personality deviation (Walters, 2003b). Independent of an association with old Factor 2, the relation between old Factor 1 emotional detachment and future violence is often found to be insignificant (Harris, Rice, & Quinsey, 1993; M. M. Hicks, Rogers, & Cashel, 2000; Skeem & Mulvey, 2001; cf. Serin, 1996). Despite contentions that old Factor 1 is important too (see Hare & Neumann, 2005; Hemphill, Hare, & Wong, 1998; Vitacco et al., 2005), published studies suggest that the core interpersonal and affective features of psychopathy assessed by the PCL–R have yet to prove their independent value in predicting men’s future violence and criminality (for an interesting exception with women, see Richards, Casey, & Lucente, 2003).

Perhaps more importantly, measures that are designed to systematize ratings of chronic criminal behavior or a criminal lifestyle do as well as, or better than, the PCL–R in identifying persistently criminal offenders (Skilling, Harris, Rice, & Quinsey, 2002) and predicting violent and general recidivism (Cooke, Michie, & Ryan, 2001; Gendreau et al., 2002, 2003; Walters, 2003a).

The predictive utility of the PCL–R and these other measures of criminality seems to be based on two factors. First, indices of past criminal behavior (including violence) naturally are linked with future, like behavior. Recall that information about criminal behavior determines one’s ratings of some PCL–R items and heavily affects one’s ratings of others. Second, ratings of past criminal behavior appear to capture something traitlike that is clinically useful but not specific to psychopathy (Blackburn, 2007; Skeem et al., 2005).

[...]

Given that (a) the core features of psychopathy explain relatively little variance in future violent and other criminal behavior as a whole and (b) there are compelling indications that criminal behavior and social deviance are, at best, epiphenomena of psychopathy (see Parameters of the Debate, above), the field would do well to refine the PCL measures to focus more narrowly on the interpersonal and affective traits of the disorder. As Blackburn (2007) explained, identifying psychopathy with criminality confounds different conceptual domains because personality deviation and social deviance belong in different universes of discourse. Personality deviation is defined within the framework of interpersonal norms, whereas social deviance represents departures from legal or moral rules. To define the former in terms of the latter precludes any understanding of the relationship [between the two]. (Blackburn, 2007, p. 145, citations omitted)

As this quotation suggests, failure to separate the process of understanding psychopathy (which seeks construct identification) from the enterprise of predicting violence (which seeks clinical utility) will generate confusion. One might assume that criminal behavior is central to psychopathy because including such behavior
improves the PCL–R’s ability to predict violence. Indeed, some have argued that the PCL–R four-factor model has incremental utility over the three-factor model i
in “predicting important external correlates of psychopathy” (Neumann et al., 2007, p. 98). Those correlates are violence and aggression. Beyond past criminal behavior, adding such variables as gender, age, or substance abuse to the PCL–R might also improve prediction of violence. Such an improvement would not imply that these characteristics are central to psychopathy. Measures of psychopathy that do not emphasize criminal behavior will probably manifest limited utility in predicting violent and other criminal behavior (e.g., Salekin, Brannen, Zalot, Leistico, & Neumann, 2006; Skeem et al., 2003).

At the same time, the measures may better assess psychopathy, furthering psychologists’ ability to conduct powerful research to better understand its etiology, pathogenesis, and treatment. Clearly, there are measures for assessing risk of future violence at levels that rival or exceed those of the PCL measures (Douglas, Ogloff, Nicholls, & Grant, 1999; Gendreau et al., 2002, 2003; Skilling et al., 2002

Measures of psychopathy are meant to assess an enduring personality disorder marked by emotional detachment. Measures of risk are meant to inform risk management. Researchers should not confuse the two. Thus, we believe that the promise of reintroducing theory outweighs its peril.

Approaching Infinity said:
It's not like you can score 30 on the checklist and because you're not violent, not be considered a psychopath. The fact that it predicts violent behavior does NOT mean that violent behavior is an essential criterion for psychopathy according to the test.

Would you agree that criminal behavior is an essential component of the PCL-R?

Approaching Infinity said:
From everything I've read, it seems to me that the PCL-R does a pretty good job of SEPARATING violent psychopaths from violent non-psychopaths. I think that if anything, its flaw is that it is better at identifying criminal psychopaths than more high-brow psychopaths. That's understandable, given its history. But that's also why other measures have been developed and are being developed, e.g. the B-Scan, which is used in corporate settings. That said, I don't think the test is perfect, just that it isn't as bad as you're making it out to be.

Yes, I agree with your assessment. However, I think the dangers of over inclusion of "socially deviant style" adherents and under inclusion of successful psychopaths is possible if we use the PCL-R to define psychopathy. This is the source of my critique of the PCL-R and obviously the concern of serious researchers who feel the PCL-R compromises scientific advance in the study of psychopathy for the practical agenda of the criminal justice system.

Approaching Infinity said:
As a reminder, here are the items from the test:

Factor 1
Aggressive narcissism

1. Glibness/superficial charm
2. Grandiose sense of self-worth
3. Pathological lying
4. Cunning/manipulative
5. Lack of remorse or guilt
6. Emotionally shallow
7. Callous/lack of empathy
8. Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Factor 2
Socially deviant lifestyle

1. Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
2. Parasitic lifestyle
3. Poor behavioral control
4. Promiscuous sexual behavior
5. Lack of realistic, long-term goals
6. Impulsiveness
7. Irresponsibility
8. Juvenile delinquency
9. Early behavioral problems
10. Revocation of conditional release

Traits not correlated with either factor

1. Many short-term marital relationships
2. Criminal versatility


Violence does NOT make up a large component of the test. However, when you're dealing with violent psychopaths (i.e. the types usually found in prisons), then yes, it would naturally predict future violence. Psychopaths rarely learn new tricks, after all.

AI, I apologize for over stating or misstating the critique of the PCL-R and am interested in your view of the paper's critique of using social deviant lifestyle factors as a measure of psychopathy. How does the PCR-R reliance on socially deviant lifestyle square with Cleckley's work which found little correlation between the affective emotional deficit or lack of empathy of psychopaths and criminal behavior, keeping in mind that social deviant lifestyle is not exactly criminal behavior, but can be, depending on who makes and enforces the criminal statutes.

Edit: I had to reformat. Word doesn't paste well from my computer to the forum.
 
go2, although I also thought your post a bit strong, I can't really address the wording of your objections because I'm still digesting all this, but if I'm reading you correctly (rather than just projecting), your core concerns relate to innocent people that might be hooked by the PCL-R?

If this is the case, then you probably know I have similar concerns as well. After all, the DSM has no listing for "normal" and both the DSM and PCL-R have vague notions subject to individual interpretation by people whose trustworthiness is justifiably suspect due to their own ponerizations.

As example, you will notice the below list contains many of the same words or their synonyms or derivatives (bolded) that appear in the DSM-IV listing for "ADHD" (posted elsewhere).

Factor 2
Socially deviant lifestyle

1. Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
2. Parasitic lifestyle
3. Poor behavioral control
4. Promiscuous sexual behavior
5. Lack of realistic, long-term goals
6. Impulsiveness
7. Irresponsibility
8. Juvenile delinquency
9. Early behavioral problems
10. Revocation of conditional release

Can you imagine my sense of dread as I imagine hundreds of "AD/HD" children and young adults rounded up and marched into holding pens to suffer who knows what, just because some 'official' and non-official social deviants have projected their own hatreds onto innocent people?

On the flip side, as long as the PCL-R deals with criminality then many of the subjects of my concern may have nothing to worry about - except the ones who deliberately, or as a response to previous abuse, choose a lifestyle involving criminality/violence.

So, all in all, I don't know if this is a very helpful post, but since you shared your concerns, I thought I'd share mine too, FWIW.
 
PCL-R said:
Factor 2
Socially deviant lifestyle

1. Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
2. Parasitic lifestyle
3. Poor behavioral control
4. Promiscuous sexual behavior
5. Lack of realistic, long-term goals
6. Impulsiveness
7. Irresponsibility
8. Juvenile delinquency
9. Early behavioral problems
10. Revocation of conditional release

Hi Bud,

I have a wonderful daughter who was charged with possession of cigarettes and possession of beer as a minor. Was she a juvenile delinquent? Was she irresponsible? Was she bored with high school? Was she impulsive? Did she have long range goals? The socially deviant lifestyle factors for psychopathy are absurd. This irresponsible test would label my daughter a psychopath. How many young people and poor people have socially deviant lifestyles?

I apologize for the rant, but I will post anyway. I think the concerns about the PCL-R are serious and well supported by science. The criminal justice system normalizes the PCL-R as a test for psychopathy, potentially abusing the innocent and excluding the successful psychopaths who probably support blurring as many lines as possible, when it comes to defining psychopathy. The PCL-R inhibits research into the nature of psychopathy as the criminal justice system and the PCL-R advocates insist criminality is a fundamental factor defining psychopathy. We must ask what you mean by criminal, when there are thousands of criminal statutes on the books, including smoking cigarettes as a minor.
 
@go2: OK, I understand what you're saying :) I may shock some people, but although I'm a "law-abiding citizen" in the eyes of the law, personally, I only support the concept of objective law - the original common law that understood that real crime was that initiation of force, threat of force against life or property and contract fraud. To me, everything else is statutory law, and for the most part, ridiculous. So I was actually not considering the wider scope when I mentioned the 'flip side' in the post above.
 
Go2, AI, Mac & Bud thanks for your further discussion critiquing the PCL-R subject with your thoughts. There is a lot to unpack here and much more reading to do, but to look at what your saying;

go2]Soon said:
@go2: OK, I understand what you're saying :) I may shock some people, but although I'm a "law-abiding citizen" in the eyes of the law, personally, I only support the concept of objective law - the original common law that understood that real crime was that initiation of force, threat of force against life or property and contract fraud. To me, everything else is statutory law, and for the most part, ridiculous. So I was actually not considering the wider scope when I mentioned the 'flip side' in the post above.
Thanks for the clarity; not much common law left, nor common sense for that matter. Much is eroding into just statute in a maritime law setting.
 
go2 said:
Factor 2 measures socially deviant lifestyle. Does this imply criminality? I should have said, that the PCL-R conflates psychopathy with criminal behavior. Do you agree that the PCL-R conflates psychopathy with criminal behavior?

Not necessarily. I think that prosecutors and a lot of researchers conflate the two. I don't think Hare does, and I'm not convinced the PCL-R does. Remember that in practical terms a person only needs a 30 to be deemed a psychopath. They may not show any evidence of several of the Factor 2 characteristics and still score as a psychopath. On the other hand, if a person has every one of the factor 2 characteristics, he still probably won't be diagnosed a psychopath. But again, this is a test that was devised and tested for CRIMINAL psychopathy. Different tests have been developed for different sub-groups (e.g., the B-scan which I mentioned previously, the youth version, a screening version, etc.). At the current moment, these are the best tests for psychopathy, but they aren't perfect and the PCL-R is the best tested of the bunch. (I wrote about my thoughts on this in the article linked to at the end of my Psychopath Test review.)

When a foolproof test comes along, I would be very interested in knowing how many psychopaths have never broken a law in their lives, or shown factor 2 traits. It seems that the good ones just cover up their crimes better. There's always an antisocial behavioral element in psychopathy. If there wasn't, they wouldn't cause any problems and it would be a moot point. As Skeem and Cooke point out, a person can demonstrate factor 2 traits while still staying within the law. Whether the PCL-R can accurately measure that kind of behavior or not remains up in the air, because these sorts of tests just haven't been done. The number of papers on "successful psychopathy" can be counted on one or two hands.


Yep, I think it makes some important points, but I also think Hare makes some good points in his responses. He points out that it isn't so much the PCL-R that is the problem as it is people using it who don't understand it and aren't trained how to use it properly. Yes, it predicts future violence relatively well (not perfectly, and I agree with S&C that there are probably better methods), but whether that means it should determine someone's future, whether they are ever released from jail, is a whole other issue.

The paper asserts this is indeed the case and this conflation is a obstacle to further research into psychopathy. The PCL-R has powerful support from the criminal justice system whose concern is risk assessment, not understanding psychopathy. This agenda is conflating social deviance with psychopathy. Many psychopaths are considered to be "pillars of the community".

And yet, behind closed doors, they abuse their wives, are involved in various forms of corruption, make people's lives hell, etc. All of which I consider "social deviance". Now, if the PCL-R was JUST factor 2, yeah, I'd have a problem with it, but factor 1 is just as important, despite what Skeem and Cooke say. I'm not aware (could be wrong though, I haven't read everything!) of statistical analyses showing diagnosed "psychopaths" who score high on factor 2 but with little or no factor 1 traits. In criminal psychopathy, they tend to go hand in hand.

Hare (1996a) has long spoken of the psychopaths among us who infiltrate political, law enforcement, government, and other social structures: “Thanks to Hare, we now understand that the great majority of psychopaths are not violent criminals and never will be. Hundreds of thousands of psychopaths live and work and prey among us” (Hercz, 2001, ¶ 11). The two-factor model poorly identifies this “great majority of psychopaths” who escape contact with the legal system or simply express their psychopathic tendencies in a manner that does not conflict with the law.

I think the first thing that is needed is to identify this group and do some tests on them. As far as I'm aware it hasn't been done, mainly because it's difficult. Funding is impossible, logistics are a nightmare, etc. But when it IS eventually done, the PCL-R and other tests for psychopathy can be used on this group and the answer can be made clear. Until that point, it seems like wiseacring to me. How can we know that the PCL-R "poorly identifies" this group if no tests have been done? It could be true, of course, but what is their data to back this up?

This suggests that callous and unemotional traits—not necessarily antisocial behavior—are key features of psychopathy. Moreover, there is no compelling longitudinal evidence that psychopathy is highly stable from childhood to adulthood. Indeed, of adolescents with extremely high scores (upper 5%) on a PCL-derived measure of psychopathy during adolescence, less than one third were classified as psychopathic by a PCL measure in early adulthood (Lynam, Caspi, Moffitt, Loeber, & Stouthamer-Loeber, 2007). Measures that focus more exclusively on emotional detachment might yield greater stability estimates (see Vincent, 2002)

This could go either way (the problem could be with the youth version, which isn't as well-developed or reliable, OR the PCL-R), so more research is needed.

The way in which the PCL–R is applied is consistent with this interpretation. First, although the PCL measures were developed to diagnose psychopathy, they overwhelmingly are applied as violence risk-assessment instruments. In a survey of 71 diplomates in forensic psychology, Tolman and Mullendore (2003) found that the psychological test used most often by diplomates to assess violence risk was the PCL–R. Indeed, diplomates used the PCL–R more than twice as often as well-validated risk-assessment instruments (Quinsey, Harris, Rice, & Cormier, 1998; Webster, Douglas, Eaves, & Hart, 1998).

Second, the PCL measures are used relatively often in legal proceedings, typically as a prosecution tool to meet the demands of sentencing (DeMatteo & Edens, 2006). To counter such strong practical forces toward pseudooperationalism, the process of understanding psychopathy must be separated from the enterprise of predicting violence. The field implicitly interprets the PCL measures’ association with violence as an indication that emotionally detached psychopaths use violence to prey upon others. This interpretation arguably explains the widespread use of the PCL measures.

A growing body of evidence suggests that the PCL measures’ predictive utility for violence cannot be attributed to their assessment of psychopathy per se (see Gendreau, Goggin, & Smith, 2002, 2003; Salekin et al., 1996; Serin, Peters, & Barbaree, 1990; Skeem, Miller, Mulvey, Tiemann, & Monahan, 2005; Skeem & 438 SKEEM AND COOKE Mulvey, 2001).

Again, this seems to me to be a problem of application, not the validity of the test itself. The first question to ask is: has the test been used responsibly, by a trained tester without ulterior motives? I think the problem is that even if there were a foolproof test for psychopathy, unless responsible people are in charge, it will ALWAYS be abused, either by psychopaths themselves who can falsely label non-psychopaths for their own aims, or by normal people using it for personal, economic, or emotional reasons.

With the PCL-R, in one of the recent articles on the controversy, they point out how prosecution and defense can come up with scores differing by as much as 20 points. This isn't a problem with the test, but with the testers. Tests in inter-rater reliability have shown that trained testers come to results within 2-3 points of each other, if not better. So again, this is a problem with ignorance in the field, not the test, which I think is what S&C are conflating. If they ARE right (and I admit they might be), they need to do some actual tests, research, statistical analyses, etc. to show that that's the case.

Given that (a) the core features of psychopathy explain relatively little variance in future violent and other criminal behavior as a whole and (b) there are compelling indications that criminal behavior and social deviance are, at best, epiphenomena of psychopathy (see Parameters of the Debate, above), the field would do well to refine the PCL measures to focus more narrowly on the interpersonal and affective traits of the disorder.

I think this is an important point. We need to determine just exactly how this "epiphenomenon" develops, the different forms it takes, and then see how well the PCL-R holds up against it or if there is another test that is better. But again, such studies haven't been done.

Approaching Infinity said:
It's not like you can score 30 on the checklist and because you're not violent, not be considered a psychopath. The fact that it predicts violent behavior does NOT mean that violent behavior is an essential criterion for psychopathy according to the test.

Would you agree that criminal behavior is an essential component of the PCL-R?

I don't think it's essential, but I think it's probably over-weighted towards it.

Yes, I agree with your assessment. However, I think the dangers of over inclusion of "socially deviant style" adherents and under inclusion of successful psychopaths is possible if we use the PCL-R to define psychopathy. This is the source of my critique of the PCL-R and obviously the concern of serious researchers who feel the PCL-R compromises scientific advance in the study of psychopathy for the practical agenda of the criminal justice system.

The thing is, successful psychopaths are successful because they MASK their 'socially deviant lifestyle'. It's still there, AFAIK. Whether it can be accurately tested is another problem. That's actually my biggest concern about the PCL-R. A low score does not mean you are not a psychopath. It could just mean you've done a great job whitewashing your life. So yeah, I agree with S&C about that. That's why I think other tests should be researched more in depth. Whether they'll outstrip the PCL-R in usefulness and reliability remains to be seen.

AI, I apologize for over stating or misstating the critique of the PCL-R and am interested in your view of the paper's critique of using social deviant lifestyle factors as a measure of psychopathy. How does the PCR-R reliance on socially deviant lifestyle square with Cleckley's work which found little correlation between the affective emotional deficit or lack of empathy of psychopaths and criminal behavior, keeping in mind that social deviant lifestyle is not exactly criminal behavior, but can be, depending on who makes and enforces the criminal statutes.

Maybe it's time for me to reread Cleckley, but as I remember it, most of his psychopaths were notorious for being sent back and forth between prisons and mental institutions, writing bad checks, and generally leading "deviant" lifestyles. The rich ones may not have gone to prison, but that was because their families shielded them. I think they would have scored fairly high on the PCL-R.

Skeem and Cooke mention Hare is getting away from Cleckley's definition of psychopathy, but I think Cleckley's psychopaths showed these:

1. Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
2. Parasitic lifestyle
3. Poor behavioral control
4. Promiscuous sexual behavior
5. Lack of realistic, long-term goals
6. Impulsiveness
7. Irresponsibility
8. Juvenile delinquency
9. Early behavioral problems
10. Revocation of conditional release

And his "incomplete manifestation" cases also covered up a deviant lifestyle (e.g. the dude who went on vacations of sin).
 

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