Our rigid notions of true and false don't work? Really?

ark

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I invite you to read my comments to the new press release with the above title quoted on SOTT page today:

http://www.signs-of-the-times.org/articles/show/130554-Impossible+things+for+breakfast%3B+Our+rigid+notions+of+true+and+false+just+don%27t+work+for+a+quantum+world.+It%27s+time+to+dish+up+a+new+logic
 
It seems like such a fascinating subject. How I wish I had more of a background in math and science so I could really delve into it. It's not at all surprising that this article for public consumption is misleading. It would sure be great if people like me had access to real cutting edge information that was presented in a way that simple minds could understand.

So, if topoi don't indicate that 'our rigid notions of true and false don't work for the quantum world', what do they indicate? Could you give us an example of what some different varieties of logic could be and their implications?
 
Miss Isness said:
So, if topoi don't indicate that 'our rigid notions of true and false don't work for the quantum world', what do they indicate? Could you give us an example of what some different varieties of logic could be and their implications?
Good question.
What is important is to ALWAYS think. The theory of "topoi" has been developed while using our ordinary logic. Proofs of the theorems are checked using our ordinary logic. Therefore telling the people that there is some other logic that must be used is simply contradictory. It is like saying "all people are lying". Some of us would take it as "deep statement" and will repeat it to other people like it was an extraordinary truth. But some others (minority) would say: "Wait a second. If ALL people are lying, then the author of this statement was lying too!."

Topoi is one of the many mathematical concepts that may find some application in the future or not. Be it in physics or in engineering or in biology or in .... Whether the application of a given mathematical concept is good or not - only results and new predictions tell. So far there are no new results. Therefore using this concept is just one of the many "games" physicists play to earn their salaries. What counts is here the publicity. The lobbies.

By the way, one of the first to try to use the theory of toposes is my colleague from Omsk (Siberia), Alexander Gutz:

http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9610073

http://users.univer.omsk.su/~guts/

http://www.univer.omsk.su/omsk/Sci/topoi/lit_e.html

He also wrote serious articles about "Interaction of the Past of parallel universes" - http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/9910037
and "Time machine as four-dimensional wormhole" - http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9612064
Very bright independent thinker of Polish origin. His family has been killed in 1937 by Stalin.
 
ark said:
Proofs of the theorems are checked using our ordinary logic...
He also wrote serious articles about "Interaction of the Past of parallel universes" - http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/9910037
and "Time machine as four-dimensional wormhole" - http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9612064
If you throw in future effects past causality and parallel universes (many worlds) then quantum logic actually does make sense using ordinary logic. This press release really is like someone trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist by admiring the tools in his tool box without having any idea what to do with the tools. More fundamental than mathematics is much better PR though.

One promising use of topoi so far in a physics sense not just pure math sense seems to be Grothendieck's use of topoi to help himself and others find deep relationships between numerical equations and geometry. I think this may actually be more the use of ideas that lead to topoi rather than actual topoi.

http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/Mar2006Update.html#awls

Miss Isness said:
It seems like such a fascinating subject. How I wish I had more of a background in math and science so I could really delve into it. It's not at all surprising that this article for public consumption is misleading. It would sure be great if people like me had access to real cutting edge information that was presented in a way that simple minds could understand.
Physics does seem to have the same problems as the world at large. The link I gave above mentions the sheep-like behavior of physicists. This link also mentions Bott's periodicity which is actually a concept that can be explained in lay person terms. By the way, you being here means you have much more than a simple mind. The only skill I found useful for delving into this stuff at my lay person level was some high school trigonometry (my college calculus was zero help) but I was relating sacred geometry to real geometry which isn't a physics thing directly anyways.

Back to Bott periodicity. If you take the view than ultimately physics comes from patterns in numbers then if every new number produced a totally new pattern aka totally new physics then physics research would be in huge trouble cause then you would need a computer the size of the universe to see what's going on (Ark has enough problems with computers not being fast enough as it is). Bott periodicity kind of says that patterns seen using the numbers 1 through 8 are like patterns for 9 through 16 and 17 through 24, etc. So to understand physics you just need to understand the 1 through 8 patterns. If only that was as easy as it sounds, though it is actually easy to see one aspect of the pattern:


1 1
1 2 1
1 3 3 1
1 4 6 4 1
1 5 10 10 5 1
1 6 15 20 15 6 1
1 7 21 35 35 21 7 1
1 8 28 56 70 56 28 8 1



This is Pascal's triangle showing a row for each of the 8 patterns. Let's say you want to know the tenth row. You could make this by using the 8th and the 2nd rows (have to always use as many 8ths as you can, 7 and 3 would not work). To get the 37th row you would need four 8ths and one of the 5th rows. The notation is Cl(8) x Cl(8) x Cl(8) x Cl(8) x Cl(5) = Cl(37).

To describe what a row is look at the 8th row, the beginning 1 is the number of ways to take zero things from 8 things, the 8 is the number of ways to take 1 thing from 8 things, the 28 is the number of ways to take 2 things from 8 things, etc. up to the last 1 which is the number of ways to take 8 things from 8 things.

Now to actually get the 10th row from the 8th and 2nd row you take that 8th row and form multiples of it using the 2nd row and add the multiples together like this:


1 8 28 56 70 56 28 8 1 (1 times 8th row via first 1 of 2nd row)
2 16 56 112 140 112 56 16 2 (2 times 8th row via the 2 in 2nd row)
1 8 28 56 70 56 28 8 1 (1 times 8th row via the last 1 of 2nd row)

Adding the above gives the 10th row:

1 10 45 120 210 252 210 120 45 10 1

Perhaps all of everything kind of comes from this.
 
I thought this was curious:
And that might just be the start; after all, there are more topoi than just the standard and quantum ones. In a series of papers unveiled last month, Isham proposes an even more mind-bending idea: there may be myriad ways of viewing reality, each based on its own topos. Together with Andreas Doering of Imperial, he has shown that every physical system - from an electron to the whole universe - has a unique mathematical identity that dictates how it will appear when viewed through the prism of a particular topos.
I never was able to grasp the difference between dimensions, realms and "densities". The Cs talk about densities as being a difference in awareness. Perhaps they mean that densities have different topoi? If 4th density has "variable physicality" then perhaps this touches on the whole truth/falsity thing where the truth/falsity (and therefore the very existence) of virtually anything is more under the control of the observer. The Cs have said that at 4th density "wishful thinking" *becomes* your reality. Suppose that the shift between 3d and 4th is really the shift in a definitive reality to a non definitive reality as is described in the article?

Just rambling...
 
rs said:
I never was able to grasp the difference between dimensions, realms and "densities". The Cs talk about densities as being a difference in awareness. Perhaps they mean that densities have different topoi? If 4th density has "variable physicality" then perhaps this touches on the whole truth/falsity thing where the truth/falsity (and therefore the very existence) of virtually anything is more under the control of the observer. The Cs have said that at 4th density "wishful thinking" *becomes* your reality. Suppose that the shift between 3d and 4th is really the shift in a definitive reality to a non definitive reality as is described in the article?
Topoi are actually rather more general than just logic as described here:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/topos.html

This link has these examples of topoi:

Suppose you're an old fuddy-duddy. Then you want to work in the topos Set, where the objects are sets and the morphisms are functions.

Suppose you know the symmetry group of the universe, G. And suppose you only want to work with sets on which this symmetry group acts, and functions which are compatible with this group action. Then you want to work in the topos G-Set.

Suppose you have a topological space that you really like. Then you might want to work in the topos of presheaves on X, or the topos of sheaves on X. Sheaves are important in twistor theory and other applications of algebraic geometry and topology to physics.

Generalizing the last two examples, you might prefer to work in the topos of presheaves on an arbitrary category C, also known as hom(Cop, Set).

For example, if C = Δ (the category of finite totally ordered sets), a presheaf on Δ is a simplicial set. Algebraic topologists love to work with these, and physicists need more and more algebraic topology these days, so as we grow up, eventually it pays to learn how to do algebraic topology using the category of simplicial sets, hom(Δop, Set).

Or, you might like to work in the topos of sheaves on a topological space - or even on a "site", which is a category equipped with something like a topology. These ideas were invented by Alexander Grothendieck as part of his strategy for proving the Weil conjectures. In fact, this is how topos theory got started. And the power of these ideas continues to grow. For example, in 2002, Vladimir Voevodsky won the Fields medal for cracking a famous problem called Milnor's Conjecture with the help of "simplicial sheaves". These are like simplicial sets, but with sets replaced by sheaves on a site. Again, they form a topos. Zounds!

But if all this sounds too terrifying, never mind - there are also examples with a more "foundational" flavor:

Suppose you're a finitist and you only want to work with finite sets and functions between them. Then you want to work in the topos FinSet.

Suppose you're a constructivist and you only want to work with "effectively constructible" sets and "effectively computable" functions. Then you want to work in the "effective topos" developed by Martin Hyland.

Suppose you like doing calculus with infinitesimals, the way physicists do all the time - but you want to do it rigorously. Then you want to work in the "smooth topos" developed by Lawvere and Anders Kock.

Or suppose you're very concerned with the time of day, and you want to work with time-dependent sets and time-dependent functions between them. Then there's a topos for you - I don't know a spiffy name for it, but it exists: an object gives you a set S(t) for each time t, and a morphism gives you a function f(t): S(t) → T(t) for each time t. This too gives a topos!
Your example of getting different densities from different topoi might be more like the symmetry group of the universe example and getting different densities by using topoi for the subgroups.
 
rs said:
I thought this was curious:

And that might just be the start; after all, there are more topoi than just the standard and quantum ones. In a series of papers unveiled last month, Isham proposes an even more mind-bending idea: there may be myriad ways of viewing reality, each based on its own topos. Together with Andreas Doering of Imperial, he has shown that every physical system - from an electron to the whole universe - has a unique mathematical identity that dictates how it will appear when viewed through the prism of a particular topos.
the same passage was curious to me too. It struck me as sensationalist to consider the idea of various realities 'mind-bending' since every individual views the world in a different way according to their own circumstances. Thanks Ark for drawing attention to this article in an accessible way.
 
I read it several times in order to understand it, but I cant.=| Always had a problem with mathematics.Physics is a little less complicated because I can present it to myself with pictures.
 
rs said:
The Cs talk about densities as being a difference in awareness. Perhaps they mean that densities have different topoi? If 4th density has "variable physicality" then perhaps this touches on the whole truth/falsity thing where the truth/falsity (and therefore the very existence) of virtually anything is more under the control of the observer. The Cs have said that at 4th density "wishful thinking" *becomes* your reality.
This topoi concept makes me think about the same analogy. Topoi sounds like level of consciousness. According to the topoi/level of consciousness you are in, you can see a different reality.
 
Avala said:
I read it several times in order to understand it, but I cant.=| Always had a problem with mathematics.Physics is a little less complicated because I can present it to myself with pictures.
Math has geometric pictures and number patterns but you do have to know a lot of them to increase the chance they will help when new things show up. You do ususally have to look at them lots more than just once before they stay in memory correctly, it's easy to get confused. The Fibonacci sequence is one lots of people have heard of and it shows up diagonally in that triangle I mentioned earlier but I have no idea what the physics significance of it is as it shows up in that Triangle.

It is lots more interesting when the math applies to physics. For that triangle the third member of the rows 5 and above can be interesting cause you can possibly find gravity, photons, weak bosons, and gluons there. Doing more complicated things could give you spacetime, matter and antimatter. The matter and antimatter parts are not totally in my memory, I would have to look it up and what I find I don't understand well at all. The quantum stuff is even worse but it is there for some. If each new row added new particles and properties that could be bad cause humans couldn't possibly understand an infinte number of different particle properties. Luckily a periodic property of the triangle might be keeping things from getting too impossible.

It's fun but takes lots of time like thousands of hours just to get a partial appreciation for the really fun stuff. At the partial appreciation level it's more a lots of time needed thing than a required education thing.
 
Axel_Dunor said:
This topoi concept makes me think about the same analogy. Topoi sounds like level of consciousness. According to the topoi/level of consciousness you are in, you can see a different reality.
In a math/physics sense, it's like your consciousness is missing some degrees of freedom when producing various awareness levels. My ability to appreciate the math of topoi is limitied but to me it almost seems like object oriented programming, a more formal way of doing things that lots of people do by the seat of their pants.
 
John G said:
In a math/physics sense, it's like your consciousness is missing some degrees of freedom when producing various awareness levels. My ability to appreciate the math of topoi is limitied but to me it almost seems like object oriented programming, a more formal way of doing things that lots of people do by the seat of their pants.
We might relate this consciousness level - topoi analogy to the exclusive "or".

Apparently this concept was introduced by Aristotle through his third excluded principle i.e. that an entity and its negation cannot be simultaneously valid.

This dual vision of the world : "black or white", "true or false", "yes or no",... seems to be (according to G in ISOTM, If I correctly remember) the mark of the lower emotional center activity.

Maybe a proper quantum approach could materialise the activity of the higher centers and enrich/transcendate those limitating theories and principles coming from the lower intellectual center.

By the way, one fundamental duality of the game theory : A wins, B loses or A loses, B wins seems to be a direct consequences of this lower intellectual center activity. From this perspective, it is not surprising that such a paradigm
is widely promoted by psychopaths whose higher center is the lower intellectual center.
 
Not to be discounted, their (institute) works on ethnology and sociology, which look very strongly like the kind of scientific literature which is seldom seen. Here is a phrase from chapter 3 of his book 'Global Ethnic Sociology' as translated by Google:

LN Gumilev believes that they have space, extraterrestrial origin
(original russian: Л.� .Гумилев полагает, что они имеют ко� миче� кое, внеземное прои� хождение)

a pity i dont understand russian. the more i become acquainted with their work, the more ...
 
ark said:
I invite you to read my comments to the new press release with the above title quoted on SOTT page today:

http://www.signs-of-the-times.org/articles/show/130554-Impossible+things+for+breakfast%3B+Our+rigid+notions+of+true+and+false+just+don%27t+work+for+a+quantum+world.+It%27s+time+to+dish+up+a+new+logic

There is a 404 not found error when link is clicked. updated link below.

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/130554-Impossible-things-for-breakfast-Our-rigid-notions-of-true-and-false-just-don-t-work-for-a-quantum-world-It-s-time-to-dish-up-a-new-logic
 
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