Out of curiousity

[anart]

Russ: I agree, I think they would look at it in a similar way I have: they see it as a competitive advantage to others in which they have the advantage. When you look at things like that, you see it as a game, a challenge, and it actually becomes fun.

I'm a bit confused here, are you saying that manipulating people into doing what you want them to do becomes fun? Or are you saying adopting psychopathic behavior traits to get an advantage becomes fun?

You really enjoy doing it when you can and you wind up putting yourself in situations where the stakes get higher.

By 'you', do you actually mean 'I' , since you look at it in a similar way?

Of course in the business world where middle management wants what upper management has and lower management wants what middle management has and the rest of the way down the chain, you don't necessarily look at it as a...cold sterile 'corporatocracy' you look at it as a game, it's fun.

Again, when you use the word 'you', do you mean 'I'. The reason I ask is that as someone who worked for years within a 'corporatocracy' I never, for one instant, thought it was fun or a game. I found it oppressive on every level.

I guess it's hard to explain if you look on it from the outside.

Or from the inside, if one is sensitive to other people's suffering.

I think ultimately what people in this mindset forget, or are 'ponerized' to, is the innate connection to humanity. The advancement and continuation of our species is absolutely the most important thing to me without exception, I would do anything for the preservation of humanity; I am just afraid that too few others feel the same way.

And, again, I'm a bit confused by this part of your post. (Mercury is still retrograde, so could just be confusion) This paragraph seems to fully contradict the things you've preceded it with. From the first part, you paint a picture of yourself as someone who thinks it's fun and a game to manipulate for your own benefit in a business environment - and here - you say that the 'advancement and continuation of our species' is the most important thing -- you rather lost me.

Tigersoap: You could argue that very few people have that kind of 'will' over yourself in the grand scheme of things

But developing that Will is exactly what we are concerned with here - it is part and parcel of the Work. So, from Tigersoap's viewpoint, since he is engaged in the Work, it is a very prescient statement. Until you are - or anyone is - awake, you have control over nothing.

but having a very honest sense of connection towards humanity makes you take a step back and appreciate the greater impacts of your actions on others.

And there are many, many people out there who think they have a 'honest sense of connection' - because they cannot know they don't have it. If one is missing the ability to experience deep, real emotions and empathy, then they cannot know that they are missing that - they do not know what it is they are missing, so they think they do have it - they assume that their experience is 'it' - even when it doesn't even approach 'it'.

They say that in the psychopathic brain their thinking trends towards hyperactivity while their feeling senses are much less so; this is how I operate on a more functioning basis but that doesn't mean I do things for any purpose of selfishness, probably absolutely to the contrary (at least most of the time) if you knew me in person. I can tell you that a lot of this is definitely learned and cultivated behaviour.

Until one is fully awake, nothing they do is purposeful - it is all purely mechanical - they 'do' nothing. It also strikes me that saying that you 'operate' on this basis and yet continuing to do it is rather odd. It's as if you are saying, 'since I know I do it, it's ok'. Perhaps I'm completely misunderstanding you though, it's happened before.

My ex (who I was with for about 3 years) was a hyper emotional ISFP

It's interesting how people with sleeping/dead emotional centers often perceive emotionally normal people as 'hyper-emotional'. Judging from your description of yourself thus far, it might be worth considering.

and she said when she met me I was 100 times more distant emotionally than I am now (and others have said similar things) so I would argue that if an individual has the capacity for empathy it can be cultivated or suppressed.

Childhood trauma and programming often (almost always) lead to suppressed emotions - if it hurts beyond imagining to feel, then it's natural to 'turn that off' - this may be a factor in your case, I cannot know.

If they do not have the capacity, there is nothing to work from. Similarly I think the same could be argued about learned emotional suppression.

Definitely - there is ponerization, where we as a society (and individually) take on psychopathic traits to survive. Having a sleeping emotional center makes this much easier, and for all we know, that may be one of the reasons so many people with potential are so damaged early on in life - to shut down the one component that can empower them to rise above the ponerization.

That does not preclude the fact, however, that with a psychopath, there is no component to shut down - they're hard wired to 'succeed' - most people of conscience have a very hard time following suit, without sustaining considerable emotional/energetic and even physical damage (which can also lead to a further 'shutting down').

And it's very important not to jump to conclusions about people - someone who appears to be psychopathic, could just be a 'soul in struggle' - but I think that might also be part of what this discussion is 'getting at'. Just some thoughts.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

But in general people don't see it. You can't even point it out to them directly--they come to the defense of the psychopath.

Yeah and sometimes go to the psychopath revealing everything you said, which can give the psychopath the incentive to try to turn others against you too. The psychopath knows he can't manipulate you directly, but he can attack you by using others. The C's were very wise when they stress that we learn to give only when someone truly asks (so it won't violate their free will, and in the process backfire on you as well).

 

[BinaryGirl]

After reading how this topic is developing (moving towards actual 'evil' personalities) I should have just withheld my comments. I wanted to contribute from my standpoint as I have some understanding as to this modality of thinking. As I was reading political ponerology for the first time (which was the first book I read concerning the topic of psychopathy) I could see certain traits in myself that aligned with a lot of what I was reading...except for the part of "hurting people for self gain", "evil", "success irregardless of the cost", etc. I have talked to some people about this and asked them if I have ever acted 'this way' before. I've been told I have been very selfish in the past sometimes at the expense of other's feelings but as soon as I became aware that I was hurting someone I would immediately back away and feel badly about what I did. I think in recent times (the last 2 years anyway) that 'sense' has become a lot better developed and I have much better appreciated the ways in which I have acted around others. This has really helped me as a person...a lot.

Anart: Yes, in a way manipulating others is fun, I guess I probably shouldn't suggest here that "we've all done it" but I'd normally make that claim. It's not fun when you realize you're hurting someone and...you usually are. If you honestly don't care then it becomes a lot of fun. I've had periods where I absolutely stop caring and it becomes great fun so...you keep doing it, with even greater voracity. Like...for me the concept of cultivating that level of 'corporate power' is oppressing to some but to people who really see the game in it, you personally feel like "This is what I'm good at" and it becomes a lot more interesting.

I was saying that I operate in a primary mode of thinking as opposed to a primary mode of feeling but I love humanity, I would do anything for humanity: I could absolutely decide to start acting like the rest of society without regard to anyone but myself and act accordingly, it would be very easy - but lately I've felt an incredible bond with other people and I think I enjoy pursuing that avenue much more; I was just saying that: Yes, I may live in one mode of primary thinking but the constant evaluation of my life brings me to this other mode of operating with tremendous passion.

Also, yes, my grammar is not always perfect - in some cases when I said "you would" I meant "one would" or "I would" or whatever.

Anart Wrote:
Definitely - there is ponerization, where we as a society (and individually) take on psychopathic traits to survive. Having a sleeping emotional center makes this much easier, and for all we know, that may be one of the reasons so many people with potential are so damaged early on in life - to shut down the one component that can empower them to rise above the ponerization.

That does not preclude the fact, however, that with a psychopath, there is no component to shut down - they're hard wired to 'succeed' - most people of conscience have a very hard time following suit, without sustaining considerable emotional/energetic and even physical damage (which can also lead to a further 'shutting down'). Just some thoughts.

You know, depending on how I'm feeling I could argue that being 'ponerized' gives you a competitive advantage in some fashion but at least from what I've seen and experienced in the last few years, having a genuine bond with humanity and really 'living it' gives you an awesome competitive advantage in life. Of course the difference is that you're not hurting anyone, you're helping them if anything and I think people who have survived without becoming absolutely insincere and jaded towards people really see the sincerity and will form a bond with you. I love it, it's like magic.

Also, my ex was emotionally crazy - anyone who knows me in real life can attest to this claim. I may not have been 'where she was at' or even 'where normal people are at' but I'm definitely not that desensitized.

ScioAgapeOmnis Wrote:
Yeah and sometimes go to the psychopath revealing everything you said, which can give the psychopath the incentive to try to turn others against you too. The psychopath knows he can't manipulate you directly, but he can attack you by using others. The C's were very wise when they stress that we learn to give only when someone truly asks (so it won't violate their free will, and in the process backfire on you as well).

I think this is super important when feeling out for sincerity in other people to differentiate a psychopath from a normal human. I will be honest I've never personally been hurt by this type of person (or at least aware of it), but you always have to stay on guard. On that note, my roommate was really interested in picking up a book called "The Gift of Fear", it's supposed to be about how our natural intuitions (whether suppressed, developed, or twisted) should be our primary survival mechanism that we rely on. This is something I've always thought was important but something that I personally am terribly lacking in. I don't even know how I could go about training myself to listen to this innate intuition so I wind up over-thinking or over-analyzing an event or situation sometimes to a twisted conclusion. Is that a common trait in psychopathic individuals?

 

[anart]

After reading how this topic is developing (moving towards actual 'evil' personalities) I should have just withheld my comments.

Not at all, your comments are quite valuable in and of themselves.

Oh, and 'The Gift of Fear' is a great book as well - if your room mate picks it up, be sure to read it - a lot of important info in there.

 

[Kupu_Kupu]

After reading how this topic is developing (moving towards actual 'evil' personalities) I should have just withheld my comments.

I am sorry I made you feel that way, that certainly was not my intent. I guess I should not have shared these personal experiences in this thread. My mistake. I hope no one here would take my sharing personally, as I am not directing at anyone, but talking about traits I have observed. I was attempting to contribute from the little that I know. I am sorry my sharing was not benificial. It is I who regret trying to contribute from my limited observations.

I am no expert. My experiences are not clinical. Alot of what I gleaned, came about the hard way. Except for what I have gleaned here, which helped to make sense of all those confusing experiences. Before SOTT, I was confounded by psychopath behaviors. Very confused! Traumatized. Very much a pollyanna. Much of what I know came about by being burned.

IMO there is no more vital subject than psychopathic traits and the science of ponerology. SOTT is a blessing to the humanity. Our world needs knowledge in these subjects. Thats what brought me here. I am in the process of learning. And in the process of attempting to share. FWIW.

I apologise if I made anyone uncomfortable. Especially BG.

 

[foofighter]

Just want to say thanks to foo fighter for an enlightening post. The contrast between a psychopath's public and private life rings true, as do their awareness of social norms and the intentional use of projection. What really jolted me was your description of this person as a 'friend'. Evidently he has a reason to be honest with you. How strange, though, I would have thought a psychopath incapable of honesty. I guess they are capable of any and all behavior that suits their purposes.

Yes, it's funny, especially now that I know what he is, and he knows it, and he knows that I know, and so on. The thing is that we both need each other for the moment, for various practical reasons. So, we work together and that is actually working surprisingly well, but I don't trust him for a second, and I know for a fact that he blames me for his wife temporarily leaving him after the mentioned episode although he was really solely responsible for it. So, he is honest only to the point that it is convenient for him, and I know that, and as long as that's all there is to it, that's fine. It allows me to get a very close look at the inside of a psychopath, and for as long as that works, I'm ok with it actually. It is quite interesting. The only ones in real trouble is his wife and kid, but that's another story.

 

[Torpid]

Thanks for all the comments, they helped allot.

I need to research a little on my own though, I think my understanding of psychopaths needs some work

 

[Beau]

I don't even know how I could go about training myself to listen to this innate intuition so I wind up over-thinking or over-analyzing an event or situation sometimes to a twisted conclusion. Is that a common trait in psychopathic individuals?

My feeling is that no, it's not a common trait. Maybe it is, but that this happens in more mundane circumstances (from one perspective) IMO. To me what you are describing above are just the normal errors with one's reading machine. The average, psychologically unhealthy individual with narcissistic traits is going to muck up analyzing just about any event or situation. Of course I'm not implying it happens non-stop, all day long, but it happens enough so that it can be identifiable by an outside, more objective observer. I have learned this from having one too many "twisted conclusions" myself ;)

I don't necessarily consider this to be a marker of some form of extreme neurosis like psychopathy though. In fact, I believe it was mentioned by Dabrowski how individuals like that have a better shot at "secondary integration" than someone who is 100% sure of themselves all the time. I hope I'm remembering that correctly :)