Paul Misiunas: gathering-minds?

alkhemst said:
Thanks for all your suggestions. For the record I didn't join here to feel good about myself the opposite is closer to the fact. I did skim read the guidelines so that's flippant of me, I'll read in more depth as I get the impression that I may have broken some guidelines due to reactions here? I just don't agree that the reason I enjoy reading Paul's work or shared it was because it makes me feel good about myself as many have concluded. I shared my feelings on the subsequent interactions for clarity and how it's relates to my current emotions that actually stem from my relationship with my parents. Those emotions aren't attracting me to Paul's work though. These were mentioned in relation to the interactions that ensured. In truth my personal work is more related to what I've learnt since listening to AJ Miller which is very different to what Paul Misiunas might value. Because I enjoy many of the material you discuss here (Casteneda, Jung, Sott.net for eg) I joined as these topics interest me personally. I also value the process of seeking Truth (capital T) as I believe in objective truth. I might say this is God's truth as opposed to our subjective truth and I'm sure many will disagree. Do I need to accept what is prescribed here to be here? If that's true then I sorry I've intruded as it is not my forum and if I've not followed your guidelines that is my error.

How is it flippant to suggest you read the guidelines when your behavior has indicated that you have no idea what it is we do here - something made clear in those guidelines? Your self-importance is a real issue.

If you intend to participate here, please do yourself (and the forum) a favor and read 'In Search of the Miraculous' by P.D. Ouspensky. That will at least give you a basic idea of the work on which this forum is partially based. Until you do that, there is really little point.
 
alkhemst said:
I might say this is God's truth as opposed to our subjective truth and I'm sure many will disagree.

No, you won't find disagreement on that; the issue is: how to get to "god's truth".


alkhemst said:
Do I need to accept what is prescribed here to be here? If that's true then I sorry I've intruded as it is not my forum and if I've not followed your guidelines that is my error.

Do you need to play chess if you join a chess club? Or do you think that you will convert everyone to bridge?
 
anart said:
How is it flippant to suggest you read the guidelines when your behavior has indicated that you have no idea what it is we do here - something made clear in those guidelines? Your self-importance is a real issue.

I think you misread alkhemst's post - he said it was flippant of him to skim-read the guidelines.

alkhemst said:
Do I need to accept what is prescribed here to be here? If that's true then I sorry I've intruded as it is not my forum and if I've not followed your guidelines that is my error.

In one sense, yes - in another, no.

There is a method to what goes on here; as Buddy once wrote, "This is not a typical chat or debate forum. It is a research forum and the members voluntarily engage in specific activities, in specific ways for specific purposes." - in this way, whether people find themselves at home here depends on whether they find themselves going in the same general direction as does this community - there's something of a common focus, a common language going along with a common understanding of basic concepts (which is one part of the reason reading recommended material is important), and common way of interacting.

There is however no belief system to be adopted - the point is not in having to agree with this or that idea.

But, again, there is the shared general direction - otherwise, we'd all waste each others' time. And as for this shared direction, the forum guidelines will explain more about that.
 
alkhemst said:
...I'd like to look into Identification: "qualities of enthusiasm, spontaneity, passion are overwhelmingly mechanical and strip one of the little free will or being one might otherwise possess" as I believe that's what you're referring to because I mentioned I'm passionate about Paul's work.

I don't agree, but I'm interested to know the basis for why this is considered true because my personal experience has been just the opposite in that finding passions and living with passion has expanded my freedom of will.

It's a good question actually. I think one possible answer may relate to the simple fact that these qualities are observed in mechanical man while he is behaving mechanically - especially trance-based-follow-the-procedure-follow-the-leader mechanical.

As an example of an existing pattern already playing out in some places, let's say John Doe (JD) is one of many passionate, unquestioning believers (has blind faith) in Jesus-Reincarnate: Alan John Miller's teachings. As such, no matter JD's enthusiasm, passion and spontaneity, I can tell you what JD is going to do before he does it and JD will pretty much be helpless to do anything different unless he's willing to go against a fairly strong behavior pattern. Repeating patterns are one good way to understand being mechanical - the opposite of having freedom of will, OSIT.

First, JD will have a motivation to look for or create situations with people that might trigger him to process his own emotions that he refers to as being related to relationships with parents. This is his primary goal. JD will enter discussions with people - especially someone who is being emotionally vulnerable and questioning at the time. JD will be certain that he knows where the problem comes from and will assure them their problem is 'soul damage' of one sort or the other and most likely due to poor relationships with parents. JD will implicitly, if not explicitly, encourage them to put themselves first, process that soul damage via their emotions - crying, hitting things and carrying on as the way to change their 'Law of Attraction'. If the person refuses this, and although JD will profess not to judge, JD will then judge that person as 'not willing to process'. JD's attitude toward the person will change in a way that may reveal his hidden arrogance and JD will look down on him in some way that makes him feel inferior because JD doesn't respect other people's beliefs in the first place. JD's is the only true belief and everyone else is an outsider.

That's the pattern, pretty much. The emphasis on "emotions related to parents" and "(fear of) judgement" seem to be two common advance warning signs. I don't think you're following that pattern as strictly as some others, so if you are sincere and really want to participate here, I'd say the recommended reading material and the network is here to help.
 
Hi again, I just re-read through the guidelines this time without skimming. Also read the new comments on this thread. I thought it worth mentioning that if I've intentionally started arguments to trigger myself emotionally, or if I've intended to convert people to my own beliefs, if I see myself better or more advanced than others here, if I tried to manipulate others via a hidden agenda, or avoided being transparent for fear of judgement - I'm actually way off following AJ Miller's teachings. I'd in reality be acting in direct opposition to all I've heard so far from him.

I do enjoy chess but don't know how to play bridge BTW :) but I do get the analogy.

Anyway I believe AJ would say that coming to a forum and not reading the guidelines in detail is unloving to those who set up the forum. I see that now and hope you can accept my apologies for that.

Also so you know I already started reading the Wave series and am liking it so far. When I first joined I listened to all the YouTube videos such as the project Camelot interview, the recent talks in Spain with Ark and Laura, the short series clips with Laura on various topics. I've also last week ordered the 5th Option (my birthday present & tomorrow's the big day!), well most likely uneventful in all honesty.

At this time though it's not feasible to read all you have suggested as I've got a young family, I'm the sole earner and don't have a lot of external support. So time wise, these are my main priorities right now.

As I mentioned briefly before in other posts, I've learnt a number of things since joining here, the most valuable is what I've learnt about myself such as I've still got issues with feeling unimportant, being unheard, fears of judgement, fears of being unfairly accused. Yet I do feel I've been transparent about myself and what I believe to be true. I realize you may not want my presence here because I want to say what I believe to be true, whether this is truth about myself or truth about the external world (as I see it at the time). I do this dispite the fear of judgement I have, so it's not always easy for me. Yet the intention is to remain honest with you, not to trigger negative feelings. It happens to be what feels like an unfortunate by product of stating things as honestly as I can.

Anyway I personally would like to interact with you more here, although I'm not sure how you (admins) feel about this. So let me know either way. Thanks!
 
alkhemst said:
At this time though it's not feasible to read all you have suggested as I've got a young family, I'm the sole earner and don't have a lot of external support. So time wise, these are my main priorities right now.

We understand that type of situation which is why The Wave and our other publications are on the net for free. It's also another thing we do here on the forum: post a link or title of a book, and several people who can take a bit of time, check it over, read it, come back with assessments. That is sort of what happened here though you obviously weren't aware that this was the approach we take!


alkhemst said:
As I mentioned briefly before in other posts, I've learnt a number of things since joining here, the most valuable is what I've learnt about myself such as I've still got issues with feeling unimportant, being unheard, fears of judgement, fears of being unfairly accused. Yet I do feel I've been transparent about myself and what I believe to be true. I realize you may not want my presence here because I want to say what I believe to be true, whether this is truth about myself or truth about the external world (as I see it at the time). I do this dispite the fear of judgement I have, so it's not always easy for me. Yet the intention is to remain honest with you, not to trigger negative feelings. It happens to be what feels like an unfortunate by product of stating things as honestly as I can.

Anyway I personally would like to interact with you more here, although I'm not sure how you (admins) feel about this. So let me know either way. Thanks!

I think you'll do fine. It's also a lesson to us to remember that sometimes, people do NOT read the forum guidelines carefully to understand that this is a very particular kind of forum that works a certain way.

So, if you want to dive in, post things that you want/need feedback on, work on yourself a la Gurdjieff and cognitive science, then this is the place for you. And we think you'll find that the benefits are well worth the labor and sometimes pain of choosing the road less traveled.
 
OK here goes, this one's super hard for me to admit. But I re-read through this thread and I see that I'm invested in the idea of my own intellectual prowess and hence the way I wrote about this material was influenced by that and then there's a lot of shame in myself that makes me want to avoid seeing such things in myself. I had a bit of an realisation about this last night. I know you guys were saying this to me... And I know you specifically mentioned the feeling of being ashamed too Anart... so I can't claim to be a quick learner but the willingness is there :) Take care guys and thanks again!
 
alkhemst said:
OK here goes, this one's super hard for me to admit. But I re-read through this thread and I see that I'm invested in the idea of my own intellectual prowess and hence the way I wrote about this material was influenced by that and then there's a lot of shame in myself that makes me want to avoid seeing such things in myself. I had a bit of an realisation about this last night. I know you guys were saying this to me... And I know you specifically mentioned the feeling of being ashamed too Anart... so I can't claim to be a quick learner but the willingness is there :) Take care guys and thanks again!

There's no reason to be ashamed, it's normal and part of the human condition. What is promising is that you were able to see this in yourself, to get a glimpse of it. If you can do that once, you can do it again, and that's how you build each step of your staircase, as it were.

'First Initiation' by Mme Jeanne de Salzmann is a work we quote often here because it's just so true about the human condition and the obstacles each of us must overcome to move forward. Here it is:

First Initiation said:
You will see that in life you receive exactly what you give. Your life is the mirror of what you are. It is in your image. You are passive, blind, demanding. You take all, you accept all, without feeling any obligation. Your attitude toward the world and toward life is the attitude of one who has the right to make demands and to take, who has no need to pay or to earn. You believe that all things are your due, simply because it is you! All your blindness is there! None of this strikes your attention. And yet this is what keeps one world separate from another world.

You have no measure with which to measure yourselves. You live exclusively according to “I like” or “I don’t like,” you have no appreciation except for yourself. You recognize nothing above you—theoretically, logically, perhaps, but actually no. That is why you are demanding and continue to believe that everything is cheap and that you have enough in your pocket to buy everything you like. You recognize nothing above you, either outside yourself or inside. That is why, I repeat, you have no measure and live passively according to your likes and dislikes.

Yes, your “appreciation of yourself” blinds you. It is the biggest obstacle to a new life. You must be able to get over this obstacle, this threshold, before going further. This test divides men into two kinds: the “wheat” and the “chaff.” No matter how intelligent, how gifted, how brilliant a man may be, if he does not change his appreciation of himself, there will be no hope for an inner development, for a work toward self-knowledge, for a true becoming. He will remain such as he is all his life. The first requirement, the first condition, the first test for one who wishes to work on himself is to change his appreciation of himself. He must not imagine, not simply believe or think, but see things in himself which he has never seen before, see them actually. His appreciation will never be able to change as long as he sees nothing in himself. And in order to see, he must learn to see; this is the first initiation of man into self-knowledge.

First of all, he has to know what he must look at. When he knows, he must make efforts, keep his attention, look constantly with persistence. Only through maintaining his attention, and not forgetting to look, one day, perhaps, he will be able to see. If he sees one time he can see a second time, and if that continues he will no longer be able not to see. This is the state to be looked for, it is the aim of our observation; it is from there that the true wish will be born, the irresistible wish to become: from cold we shall become warm, vibrant; we shall be touched by our reality.

Today we have nothing but the illusion of what we are. We think too highly of ourselves. We do not respect ourselves. In order to respect myself, I have to recognize a part in myself which is above the other parts, and my attitude toward this part should bear witness to the respect that I have for it. In this way I shall respect myself. And my relations with others will be governed by the same respect.

You must understand that all the other measures—talent, education, culture, genius—are changing measures, measures of detail. The only exact measure, the only unchanging, objective real measure is the measure of inner vision. I see—I see myself—by this, you have measured. With one higher real part, you have measured another lower part, also real. And this measure, defining by itself the role of each part, will lead you to respect for yourself.

But you will see that it is not easy. And it is not cheap. You must pay dearly. For bad payers, lazy people, parasites, no hope. You must pay, pay a lot, and pay immediately, pay in advance. Pay with yourself. By sincere, conscientious, disinterested efforts. The more you are prepared to pay without economizing, without cheating, without any falsification, the more you will receive. And from that time on you will become acquainted with your nature. And you will see all the tricks, all the dishonesties that your nature resorts to in order to avoid paying hard cash. Because you have to pay with your ready-made theories, with your rooted convictions, with your prejudices, your conventions, your “I like” and “I don’t like.” Without bargaining, honestly, without pretending. Trying “sincerely” to see as you offer your counterfeit money.

Try for a moment to accept the idea that you are not what you believe yourself to be, that you overestimate yourself, in fact that you lie to yourself. That you always lie to yourself every moment, all day, all your life. That this lying rules you to such an extent that you cannot control it any more. You are the prey of lying. You lie, everywhere. Your relations with others—lies. The upbringing you give, the conventions—lies. Your teaching—lies. Your theories, your art—lies. Your social life, your family life—lies. And what you think of yourself—lies also.

But you never stop yourself in what you are doing or in what you are saying because you believe in yourself. You must stop inwardly and observe. Observe without preconceptions, accepting for a time this idea of lying. And if you observe in this way, paying with yourself, without self-pity, giving up all your supposed riches for a moment of reality, perhaps you will suddenly see something you have never before seen in yourself until this day. You will see that you are different from what you think you are. You will see that you are two. One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.
 
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