Possibly setting myself up for an STS situation....

[Cyre2067]

Basically look for some feedback from the group: I'm going on a semi-date tonight (i hate dating cuz im a picky bastard and i end up breaking things off after 1-2 outtings) with this kid that already (just from phone conversations) giving me the impression of being needy. Now, i'm an independent person and im really only compatible with same, im not looking for a boyfriend in the long term relationship sense (tend to date other guys, but i resist classifying myself as "gay") and i have a feeling he is.

That said, i do want to give it a shot sotospeak, and also have a feeling im probably supposed to learn something from this interaction (IE i'm not supposed to blow him off). What i can't help is that there's also the selfish part of me thinking "Well i might get laid". And can't tell if thats the driving force behind me actually wanting to go. So basically, going with the expectation of getting ass and aiming for that goal would be STS and going with an open mind just to learn/experience and having no expectations would be STOish right?

Confuzzled on this one...

 

[Renaissance]

Hi Cyre,

I'm going on a semi-date tonight (i hate dating cuz im a picky bastard and i end up breaking things off after 1-2 outtings) with this kid that already (just from phone conversations) giving me the impression of being needy.

I read an excerpt last night from, "Narcisissim: Denial of the True Self" by Alexander Lowen that I think might help. He focuses mainly on a highly developed narcissism but I think his comments are useful in studying ourselves. I've seen much of what he describes in the book in my false self (which is very real) and the programs I run - my image (or personality).

Below includes an extract that focuses on a rapist's mentality and also the seducer. I am in no way implying that you share the attributes of a rapist; I just want to make that clear. However, it seems your 'image' might share some of the characteristics of a seducer. I think it can be of use to study the magnified characteristics that damage society so that we can begin to see the more subtle signs of the 'same beast' in our own psyche.

When one is identified with an image, one sees the other as an image, one sees the other as an image that in many cases represents some aspect of the self. Narcissism splits the reality of an individual into accepted and rejected aspects, the latter being projected, then upon others. The attack upon these others stem partly from the desire to destroy this rejected aspect. For example, the conman who thinks of himself as shrewd and superior must see his victim as gullible and stupid. Similarly the soldier who is fighting for the right, for justice and honor will, often see the enemy as cruel and dishonorable. If the narcissistic image is one of toughness and strength, one will project upon others an image of vulnerability and weakness which must be destroyed.
(...)
There is a continuous line from violence against helpless persons, to rape of helpless women, to seduction and exploitativeness. What the rapist and the seducer have in common, though in different degrees, is an insensitivity to the sexual partner, an overinvolvement with their egos and a lack of sexual feeling on a body level. Sexual feeling, as opposed to genital excitation, is experienced as love, tenderness, and the longing to be close to another person. The denial of this feeling, because of its association with neediness and vulnerability, promotes overexcitation of the genitals, leading to the act of rape. The genital charge is overpowering because the individual cannot contain the feeling. Unable to approach a woman in the state of relaxation, the rapist is driven or propelled into a violent action, which also expresses his intense hostility toward women. Fearing women, the rapist is sexually aroused only by the image of aggressive power of a woman. Similarly, the seducer depends on an image for sexual arousal - the picture of an irresistible, dominant, and controlling "lover." Both types exemplify narcissistic behavior because they do not see their victims as people in their own right but only as images. Both rape and seduction are pornographic scenes in that sexual desire depends on denying the other's humanity or personhood and seeing only a sex object.

Of course, the above is up to you to decide if it applies or not. I have zero qualifications in the psychiatric field and so my comments should also be taken in that light.

Shane

 

[Renaissance]

I just wanted to add some additional thoughts and an experience to the matter.

Sexual feeling, as opposed to genital excitation, is experienced as love, tenderness, and the longing to be close to another person. The denial of this feeling, because of its association with neediness and vulnerability, promotes overexcitation of the genitals

I remember when I was around 13/14 years old I felt such a longing to be close to another that it hurt. It hurt so much, I remember nights in bed just wishing the hurt would stop. I thought that it was not 'right' to have these feeling so young. So many of my friends were interested in what 'sex' was but I wasn't so much, I just wanted that closeness. And I didn't find or have it so I blocked it. I remember praying that the hurt, the longing, would stop - and it did. [Just bringing this up has had a good release of tears for me] In looking back, I don't remember thinking 'oh, it stopped', but I do remember that right after this is when my addiction to pornography really began to manifest. This addiction had power over my life for years and years; I didn't even know I had this addiction until I really began to analyze my life, which had it's roots in seeing a really ugly 'me' at a workshop Laura, Ark, and the QFG held two summers ago. So this blocking of true sexual feeling that Lowen talks about, I can attest, does manifest in an 'overexcitation of the genitals' in concert with your own 'image' and the 'image' of another. I find this really interesting (although 'intereting' doesn't seem to express what I fully mean, our darn limiting language!! :) )

 

[Cyre2067]

Huh interesting indeed! Never thought of it that way, i tend to shut off my emotional centers in most situations because im picky, if something isn't 100% what i want i tend to get bored easily and thus the situation never works out (IE: other person gets attached, im not interested in them as much as they are me and so they get hurt). So i developed ways of not letting them get attached, this mostly includes a level of apathy in any relationship i get myself into, representing myself as a prick, basically setting them up for the complete opposite of what i am (generally a nice guy that's honest). And now that i'm typing all this out im getting confused.... odd.

Anyway, date went well and i actually may like the kid even with his drawbacks of being needy. Definately is too, has a strong desire to talk to me alot and everytime i suggest we do something he reiterates, "ya promise?" as if he's expecting me to back out suddenly. Maybe im somehow interpretting this wrong, but i feel like im looking at it objectively. I'm definately sexed up at times, but i wouldnt say i have an overactive sex drive, it seems quite tame compared to some of my friends. And if you take in the fact that i'm a 23 year old male it again seems kinda normal. ::shrugs:: thanks for the input thou shane, gives me some perspective.

 

[Ryan]

Anyway, date went well and i actually may like the kid even with his drawbacks of being needy. Definately is too, has a strong desire to talk to me alot and everytime i suggest we do something he reiterates, "ya promise?" as if he's expecting me to back out suddenly. Maybe im somehow interpretting this wrong, but i feel like im looking at it objectively. I'm definately sexed up at times, but i wouldnt say i have an overactive sex drive, it seems quite tame compared to some of my friends. And if you take in the fact that i'm a 23 year old male it again seems kinda normal.

You're only 23 and you're referring to this other person as a "kid"? How old is he?

 

[Renaissance]

Anyway, date went well and i actually may like the kid even with his drawbacks of being needy. Definately is too, has a strong desire to talk to me alot and everytime i suggest we do something he reiterates, "ya promise?" as if he's expecting me to back out suddenly.

Well you previously said that you tend to break things off after one or two outings; perhaps he senses this and so is unsure about what you say. It seems his uncertainty of you is correct.

I think you missed some of my point. Mostly this:

When one is identified with an image, one sees the other as an image, one sees the other as an image that in many cases represents some aspect of the self. Narcissism splits the reality of an individual into accepted and rejected aspects, the latter being projected, then upon others. The attack upon these others stem partly from the desire to destroy this rejected aspect. For example, the conman who thinks of himself as shrewd and superior must see his victim as gullible and stupid. Similarly the soldier who is fighting for the right, for justice and honor will, often see the enemy as cruel and dishonorable. If the narcissistic image is one of toughness and strength, one will project upon others an image of vulnerability and weakness which must be destroyed.

The fact that you refer to him as a 'kid' (and I'm guessing he really isn't, in the real meaning of the word) makes me think that your lying to yourself. It suggests you're placing yourself on a pedestal in comparison to him - that you're 'self-sufficient' and 'adult' - he's a 'kid' and 'needy'.

Have you considered there may be a part of you that you're denying who does need another?

 

[Saman]

Hi Cyre2067, All,

Today I have specifically reworked a prayer from the 'past', which is still in the workings. So now having read this thread, I thought to share my current thoughts due to this thread being synchronously relevant to my currently reworked prayer. Anyways, it's not too long and I don't think it will be a waste of forum-storage space. So here is how I pray to my own potential Being:

"I pray to you, Unified STO higher self, to ask for any help karmically permitted within the scope of All your incarnations contemplated lesson profiles, for my Life's 'aim' of dampening and dispersing the 'I's' of "Infra-sex" into a passive and nullified state, while amplifying and 'magnetizing' the 'I's' of "normal sex" into an active and unified state, in the hopes of this 'seed' 'naturally progressing' to being 'seated' by you, and becoming a man of "supra-sex", in the 'future'. Thank you."

The more I 'feel' my subconscious mind being bombarded with noise due to tampering factors in the external environment, the more I repeat this pray to 'tune' my Being's 'frequency' towards my Life's 'aim' within the internal environment - like tuning a radio to seek and sustain a certain signal from all the noise. The quotes above are from a book by Ouspensky called "A New Model Of The Universe"; however, my own current understanding of these terms is a synthesis of my current level of experiences in tandem to my own current level of understanding and knowledge from the concepts presented by the C's, Mouravieff, and Gurdjieff in regards to the proper use of 'sex' in contrast to the improper use of 'sex', so to say; hence, I think O's book is a 'good' starting point to get a grasp of some concepts leading to your own potential discoveries, and perhaps the Work of acknowledging some of your own "sacred cows" within.

Well, just some current thoughts,



Saman

 

[Cyre2067]

Twisted! Shane - i totally missed your point. I think it's cuz in my head narcissism is a negative and i didn't want to apply that label or anything having to do with it to myself, but alas that's exactly what i was doing. Emotional attachment opens me up to be hurt - thus it was a weakness that i minimized by weeding out my ability to get attached unless certain conditions were met. So i was placing myself on a pedestal of superiority b/c he wants closeness and i typically don't. I've been denying my emotional need to be close to someone... its a defense mechanism. I installed it on purpose, i dont like to be emotionally dependent on others, i value my individuality and any potential mates would ideally be similiar. Karmically am I supposed to open myself up more? Wouldn't this open me up to attacks more? Gosh darn this whole bit is confusing.

Ryan - he's 21, i refer to everyone below the age of 30 as a kid.

Saman - cool prayer, i dont get the terms you used, specifically infra-/supra-/normal sex - what are those? However i find the bit about tuning to be very cool and i think ill modify/incorporate that ideal into my daily mutterings (i dont like "prayer" - was raised catholic, so know i just mutter things in my head and the universe occasionally responds via my subconcious.)

 

[Mike]

Basically look for some feedback from the group: I'm going on a semi-date tonight (i hate dating cuz im a picky bastard and i end up breaking things off after 1-2 outtings)

Emotional attachment opens me up to be hurt - thus it was a weakness that i minimized by weeding out my ability to get attached unless certain conditions were met.

I went through a period where I didn't date much and when I did I ending up living the whole relationship in my head and rejecting the person and situation as undoable from my own thoughts of what the relationship would become. I was closing myself to possibilities because I was anticipating the hurt or pain or that the relationship wouldn't work out so why bother. Also, ultimately what was being avoided were my own fears and dealing with my own junk that being in a relationship could require. In the end life and adventure and learning were missing. Not sure if this applies to you or not, but your last post made me think and these are some of my thoughts.

Wouldn't this open me up to attacks more? Gosh darn this whole bit is confusing.

Seems like it could. But what is better? Sitting at home alone because of possible attacks and maybe missing the lesson or living and learning as you experience.

 

[Saman]

Saman - cool prayer, i dont get the terms you used, specifically infra-/supra-/normal sex - what are those? However i find the bit about tuning to be very cool and i think ill modify/incorporate that ideal into my daily mutterings (i dont like "prayer" - was raised catholic, so know i just mutter things in my head and the universe occasionally responds via my subconcious.)

Hi Crye2067, All,

To put it very 'simply' and briefly, to my current level of understanding, Infra-sex is the wrong use of life-force/sexual energy by the three lower centers that form various kinds of lying to oneself that are so much loved by the 'I of the animal man's' "false personality", or what don Juan calls the "Predator Mind". One example for instance would be one lying to oneself in the manner of projecting what they are looking for in a potential complementary individual onto another individual who based on some facts, is not truly "collinear" with them; hence, one is then wishfully lying to oneself that this individual is "collinear" to them due to the 'buffers' of the "false personality" - imagine all the relationships out there based on the couple lying to themselves, and imagine how much psychological suffering such marriages cause for all parties involved...now add OP's into the picture...and you are now in a very complicated 'maze' with all sorts of emotional traps related to sympathy and pity and so forth used by the MCS to lure one into such draining relationships...

Normal-sex is when man starts to 'build' and 'climb' their "staircase" to stop lying to himself/herself by using Life-Force in the proper manner - see what G said on this matter. One example of the proper manner of using Life-Force would be to 'gradually' stop the lies to oneself about another individual being "collinear" to their life 'aim' - and here 'gradually' might mean more then one Life time, perhaps simultaneous Life times through 'time', due to karmic debts...

Supra-sex is when man has completely stopped 'uselessly' lying to oneself, and by doing so, as found their "polar opposite", their "complementary soul" in real Life. Now the couple are utilizing both their Life-forces in their full potentials due to being able to amplify both their FRVs through the complementary 'resonance' shared between both their Beings while learning their lessons in 3D; thus, they are now 'rising' through the "staircase" through 'natural progression', that is, a manner of progression that IS 'naturally' 'contemplated' and meant to BE in regards to 'spiritual purity', ' spiritual hygiene', or say, 'spiritual unity' - see what Mouravieff said on this matter of "polar opposites".

Furthermore, I have noticed that Laura has posted something in regards to sex and 'sex' by Lama Sing. For some insights of what 'spiritual purity', being "purified of the head", so to say, means, you might want to check out that post - I was amazed by its clarity, to say the least...

Anyways, this is the current 'point' of my level of understanding in regards 'sex', and I have been brief with one example in regards to each form of 'sex' since this subject is more complex then it has been stated by me thus far. For instance, getting into the proper use of 'sex' has to do with the three lower centers, the negative and positive halves, and the 'devil' is in what is the proper 'tuning' of these centers in regards to one's Being, or say 'radio', in order to 'see' "God", to see Creation, the Names of God, as it IS, and not what one projects it to be due to 'buffers' or "sacred cows" that cause one's Being into wishful thinking - as the C's stated, some project, some reflect, or so I think.

Well, perhaps these thoughts may be of some help to you in regards to your current questions. I will keep adding to these thoughts in the 'future' due to further questions, thoughts, or realizations from this 'point' of perception - as I have been doing so this morning while editing! It's just that this subject is so vast, to say the least, when 'sex' governs everything in Life! Puts the C's saying "the sexual center is in direct contact with 7th density in its "feminine" creative thought of "Thou, I Love." The "outbreath" of "God" in the relief of constriction. Pulsation. Unstable Gravity Waves." in a whole new perspective doesn't it? Hmm, those Unstable Gravity Waves...much to learn about from this end.


Regards,


Saman

 

[Saman]

For what it's worth, I thought to mention that I have recently re-modified my prayer mentioned above due to a new realization in regards to "God" - the Universe:

"I pray to the Universe, to ask for any help karmically permitted within the scope of my soul's incarnated and contemplated lesson profiles, for my Life's 'aim' of dampening and dispersing the 'I's' of "Infra-sex" into a passive and nullified state, while amplifying and 'magnetizing' the 'I's' of "normal sex" into an active and unified state, in the hopes of this 'seed' 'naturally progressing' to being 'seated' and becoming a man of "supra-sex" in the 'future'. Thank you."

Edit:

I've re-modified the above again to something shorter and more simple, so to speak:

"The Universe, I choose to pray to your Light and ask for any help karmically permitted within the scope of my soul's 'contemplated' lesson profiles, for the 'aim' of my spirit, step by step, finding the strength to overcome your Darkness that I see within, and thus, BE."