Psychopath in College

[asunshin]

Freshman year in college I noticed a fellow student around, and immediately got a bad feeling about her. There was an overwhelming aura of negativity around her underneath affected cheerfulness. I was just inclined to stay away from her and didn't give it much thought. But then as my college years continued on, over and over again there would be some drama involving her and people I was socially connected with. She was a walking disaster, always involved with boyfriend after boyfriend, cheating and lying ruining the relationships and other people's friendships and getting unwanted pregnancies over and over again. Meanwhile I wondered why anyone would ever want anything to do with her, given her reputation. I am hesistant to judge someone's physical appearance, but the fact is relevant that she was/is also lacking attributes that are conventionally considered physically attractive, and so I mystified as to what her source of charisma was. The dramas also extended into extracurricular activities, where she was ambitious about obtaining leadership in a wide variety of them. Eventually, without getting into detail, a drama of hers painfully interfered my own life and I grew to hate her with a passion I'm not proud of.

What I find interesting about the situation is that although this was before I ever heard of the Cassiopaeans, or David Icke, or others who talk about sociopaths, I saw her for what she was, I made the connections. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but remembering that makes material like material here on this site, as crazy as it sounds to the uninitiated, so resonant with my own experience. I thought of her as a lamia, which is a mythical snake creature. So many times I thought, "she's not a real person!" I even wrote a poem about how she is a snake pretending to be a human, but no one notices, leading their downfall. Most importantly, over and over again, it struck me how every single time she expressed an emotion, it was <i>soley for the purpose of manipulating people</i>. I didn't think in terms of "these are the symptoms of a psychopath", I had never even heard of the psychopath-lizzie connection, but independantly, on my own I made that connection. I was in awe of how she would lie as easily and naturally as people breathe, it was so apparent to me that she is beyond empathy, beyond reach, there is no saving her, but I stayed silent because that seemed so harsh and unfair and judgemental, and one should always consider the possibility they could be wrong. But still it was so frustrating to me that no one else could seem to see it, on the contrary, they saw her as a "nice" girl, who just has some problems we should pity, not condemn her for, even though that view blatantly contradicted her actual behavior, which was overtly greedy and devious. She could do anything, but as long as afterwards she put on what I found to be the most unconvincing smile or show of contriteness, people would forgive and forget anything she did!

Last I heard of her, she was working at the same company as someone I know. He said she was still the same, always wheedling and making promises she had no intention of keeping to try to get in with the people in power. She worked there for only a short time though. Given her history, I bet she just left or was fired because of some petty drama she is apt to be involved in.

 

[Rhansen]

immediately got a bad feeling about her. There was an overwhelming aura of negativity around her underneath affected cheerfulness. I was just inclined to stay away from her .

I've had he same "bad feeling" about people that usually turned out to be correct (I can think of at least one time when it was wrong). At the same time I've had no bad feeling about a few people that turned out to have many psycopathic traits and also one that I am sure is a psycopath. Makes me wonder exactly what I was sensing - their intentions perhaps?
Guess I just wanted to say that you can't rely on intuition alone.

 

[stardust]

(Actually “to wonder if someone’s a psychopath� " is a safer concept, “recognize" sounds too certain, we might be wrong and we don’t want to attack the merely odd. On the other hand, if criminal conduct is involved and the diagnosis is certain, then the situation is different.) We all have different life experiences and are attuned to different senses. You need to use all your experience, abilities, instincts, intuitions and reasoning to protect yourself and your family from psychopaths.

We must not forget that the cleverer psychos are not easily detected. In the case of Asunshin, the behaviour of the girl was quite obvious, even if the most of people think " they saw her as a "nice" girl, who just has some problems we should pity, not condemn her for, even though that view blatantly contradicted her actual behavior, which was overtly greedy and devious" . Many are excusing this kind of behaviour not to recognize they have been conned.

I think it's good to not muzzle an intuition but it is essential to corroborate it with others elements and a careful observation.
As far as I'm concerned I see the intuition as a direct reading of an event, something or somebody. I have the impression that if an intuition is wrong, it is caused by a distortion of the reasoning (fast and subconscious) which take the place of the prime intuition. It's a phenomena I try to observe. What it's strange is that it is very much more difficult with people I have relation with, like if my brain is suddenly so overwhelmed with informations and conjectures that it is impossible to find again what was the first impression about these people.
So it is to time, experience and knowledge to "make all the job".

 

[OCKHAM]

But still it was so frustrating to me that no one else could seem to see it, on the contrary, they saw her as a "nice" girl, who just has some problems we should pity, not condemn her for, even though that view blatantly contradicted her actual behavior, which was overtly greedy and devious.

Sounds like she was doing the secret pity play and had many fooled. Here some info from Martha Stout’s book, “The Sociopath Next Door" . I had made some notes and when I read you mentioned pity, I went back and collected some info that may be helpful for you in discussion, although you seem to be aware of this already.

The most reliable sign, the most universal behavior of unscrupulous people is not directed, as one might imagine, at our fearfulness. It is, perversely, an appeal to our sympathy.

I first learned this when I was a graduate student in psychology and had the opportunity to interview a court-referred patient the system had already identified as a “psychopath" . He was not violent, preferring instead to swindle people out of their money with elaborate investment scams. Intrigued by this individual and what could possibly motivate him--I was young enough to think he was a rare sort of person--I asked, “What is important to you in your life? What do you want more than anything else?" I thought he might say, “getting money", or “staying out of jail", which were the activities to which he devoted much of his time. Instead, without a moment’s hesitation, he replied, “Oh that’s easy. What I like better than anything else is when people feel sorry for me. The thing I really want more than anything else out of life is people’s pity." [p107]

Martha also had this to say on page 51.

…what sociopaths envy, and may seek to destroy as a part of the game, is usually something in the character structure of a person with conscience, and strong characters are often specially targeted by sociopaths.

With this info, the person in question you mentioned may be targeting people who she knows will forgive her easily as their conscience is visible to her, but her lack of conscience is hidden to them.

I’m on chapter 8 presently. If you search Martha Stout’s name online, there are many who have attacked her, but that seems to go with the territory, so one needs to work through all that too. If you search her name or book in the forum, you will also find a lot of reading material.

I've had no bad feeling about a few people that turned out to have many psycopathic traits and also one that I am sure is a psycopath.

It may be that we forget to anaylize people based on the emotions that are being used because there are so many we take for granted, and begin to offer up for people assuming the best, as a preferred non-resistant [confrontational] path in life. Martha also mentions that sociopaths do not see emotional words any differently than regular words, as though their stimuli at the level of cerebral cortex is out of whack, page 125.

 

[Rhansen]

... offer up for people assuming the best, as a preferred non-resistant [confrontational] path in life.

In the psychopath instance I automatically trusted him (my mistake) because he was a family member (older stepbrother). I didn't grow up with him but after getting to know him better (at a later time) it became very clear what he was about. But to this day my "intuition" does not function with respect to this individual. He is very good at the art of deception OSIT.

 

[Amanecer]

But to this day my "intuition" does not function with respect to this individual. He is very good at the art of deception OSIT.

I had the same experience with a psychopath I knew. He was so "eloquent" in his lying, I had to keep reminding myself of the truth when dealing with him. I did not know about psychopaths at the time I knew this creep, but I did notice "odd" things about him. On several occasions I saw him watching me and then later imitating the gesture or mannerism that he was observing. It looked very unnatural and was apparent that he didn't understand the emotion of the gesture. At the time I just thought there was something strange about it....how i wish i would have listened to my instincts!

What i wonder is; Do these people ever get caught? I feel sort of hopeless that this guy will ever be found out. He is so calculating and charming. He has a high powered job and knows how to schmooze people. Does anyone know of a successful sociopath getting caught? My only hope is that this guy's grandiosity will be so "fueled" that he will get careless and make a mistake.

 

[stardust]

Does anyone know of a successful sociopath getting caught?

Ted Bundy?

Most people have heard of Ted Bundy; the serial killer who was executed in Florida several years ago. Not many people are aware of the fact that Bundy was studying to become a prosecutor, and that eventually he hoped to become a judge. Those that do know that fact see it as some strangely ironic twist—an inexplicable quirk in Bundy's bizarre makeup. It never seems to occur to most people that the perfect place for a psychopathic serial killer to hide in society is as a prosecutor or a judge; but I assure you that it occurs to the Psychopaths of the world. I would estimate that about 10% of the prosecutors and judges in the United States are in fact, S.A.P.s [Socially Adept Psychopaths]. The only difference between them and Ted Bundy is that they were able to control outward signs of their Psychopathy until they achieved their goal of being in a position of authority. […]

maybe Bundy is not what we could call a "successful sociopath".
The problem is that the successful sociopaths who are in a position of authority can surely cover-up their mistake.

 

[asunshin]

Yes, there's always the trying to elicit pity! A close friend of mine, he seems to attract the female sociopaths in droves. He's the nicest, most trusting/gullible person you'll ever meet, introverted software engineer with not much luck with women in general. He had this one girlfriend who cheated on him and knowingly gave him an STD. When he tried to break up with her, she'd lie about her mother having cancer, then she would have a brain tumor, etc. She would lie about anything, big or small or absurd. And the sad part is he kept believing her even though he knew she lied before!!! ::forehead smack::. People who think female socipaths are rare need to monitor guys like my friend. Predators pick off the weakest of the herd. I think female sociopaths are more likely to be labelled narcissistic or histrionic.

I don't think we should go around labelling people, but intuition will save your life! It's a delicate balance, but just because one believes something does not mean they cannot also keep observing and take in new information in a relatively unbiased way. And either way, a person shouldn't go around trying to harm them anyway.

 

[wastargetedbypsycho]

"The most reliable sign, the most universal behavior of unscrupulous people is not directed, as one might imagine, at our fearfulness. It is, perversely, an appeal to our sympathy."


Yeah, I can definately relate to this. I had the utter misfortune of working with a psychopath who was always tring to get pity/sympathy out of me. I can relate to the original poster's experience of just automatically picking up on the fact that there was something wrong or "odd" about this individual. I wish that I had trusted my intuition and not had anything to do with him, but in the workplace, specifically the one that I was working at, it would have been hard to just cut someone off because of the open environment and family-oriented kind of culture. And everyone kind of had their nose in everyone else's business. So he and I talked and got along really well, even though my initial intuition was that he was a weirdo. It's not that he necessarily did anything blatantly weird or disconcerting it was more so that he was just an odd human being and not in a funny or good way. It was in an off putting way. I've always been a highly intuitive person so I tend to see things and observe things in people that others might not pick up on right away. So anyway, the guy and I got along well but his weirdness would just get to me sometimes. One time I cut him off for a couple of weeks because I couldn't handle his ingratiating manner. He was also very self-loathing and even though he came across as a downtrodden loser, he was grandiose and felt like he was doing all the work in the workplace, which was another thing I really started to hate about him. I've read up on this aspect of psychopaths, that they feel like they are making the greatest contribution even though everyone might be doing their fair share. It's a deeply ingrained delusion that the psychopath has. I always had sympathy for him until I realized how grandiose he was and the fact that he was so dismissive toward other people because he felt like his own work and the time he was spending on his work was more important than everyone else's. The guy also had hardly if any friends outside of the workplace and his family members didn't like him. I took pity on him until I started to think about it and realized that there must of been some valid reasons why people were turned off by him. He was also always trying to use flattery too but in a patronizing way. It just didn't feel appropriate.

 

[QueenVee]

What i wonder is; Do these people ever get caught? I feel sort of hopeless that this guy will ever be found out. He is so calculating and charming. He has a high powered job and knows how to schmooze people. Does anyone know of a successful sociopath getting caught?

How about Kenneth Lay and his Enron cohorts? All doing prison time after years and years of high-powered, well-connected and respected "successes". Or Conrad Black? He was untouchable for decades, but now faces prison time. Bush and his cohorts have been "caught" over and over again, lying, fabricating "evidence", etc. However, it is doubtful that they will ever "pay" for their crimes.

There are lots of stories of people who successfully con and fool people for years, but eventually get "caught" -- usually because after getting away with so much for so long, they get cocky and reckless, as they come to believe they can get away with ANYTHING.

The ones that scare me are those who are NEVER caught, who never let their "mask of sanity" slip, and continue to walk among us as "normal" human beings. For every serial killer who is eventually apprehended after DECADES of successful killing sprees (such as the BTK Killer and the Green River Killer), there are many who NEVER get caught (e.g. the Zodiak Killer and the Black Dahlia Killer). In the corporate world, ruthless "executives" and "businessmen" are usually hansomely rewarded for their psychopathic behaviour -- for every Kenneth Lay and Conrad Black that are exposed and prosecuted, there are HUNDREDS who simply jump from success to success.