Psychopathy texts for teens

[foofighter]

Hi!

In a couple of threads there's been suggestions that knowing about manipulative behaviour and psychopathic tendencies should be taught to kids/teens, as a way to early in their life give them tools to avoid some of these people. I thought this was a good idea, and sat down for a talk with my 12yo daughter and looked at ch9/10 in the book "In Sheeps Clothing", which has helped me and many others since it is so concrete and easily applicable. However, I immediately noticed that the language in it is too complicated for teens, and I have seen the same problem when non-English speakers try to read it (I live in Asia now). The info is good, but the presentation isn't adapted to their needs. And, in our discussions, when I had managed to translate the text into simpler wording she had no problem relating the content to her own reality in school, family and friends, so it seems like the age itself was not the main problem.

So, I'm wondering the following:
1) Does anyone have any other suggestions for texts that can be used for discussions with kids in this age? Has anyone tried it with their own, and do you have any tips?
2) If no good texts exist, I'm considering "translating" ch9/10 from ISC into simpler english, so that it becomes more accessible. I've already translated it once into Swedish, with huge success (that text forms the basis for one of the most popular websites on psychopathy in Sweden right now). Any suggestions on this? Maybe provide more age-appropriate examples?

Thanks for any help.

 

[Pierre]

So, I'm wondering the following:
1) Does anyone have any other suggestions for texts that can be used for discussions with kids in this age? Has anyone tried it with their own, and do you have any tips?
2) If no good texts exist, I'm considering "translating" ch9/10 from ISC into simpler english, so that it becomes more accessible. I've already translated it once into Swedish, with huge success (that text forms the basis for one of the most popular websites on psychopathy in Sweden right now). Any suggestions on this? Maybe provide more age-appropriate examples?

Thanks for any help.

Maybe a solution would be to use some existing tales like "little red hood" or "Hansel and Gretel" where some psychopathic characters (the wolf, the sorceress) and psychopathic behaviours are displayed. Perhaps some gentle explanations (without falling into fear mongering) could clarify the symbolism of those tales.

Well that's just a thought, I hope it can help.

 

[Laura]

Actually, the fairy tale idea isn't bad at all. Such stories could be re-written or introduced with something like "even though this story talks about a wolf, it is really trying to emphasize the animalistic nature of many people who look just like ordinary humans."

On the other hand, leaving the stories as "fairy tales" might tend to make the child think "it's just make-believe, it's not real." But still, taking the fairy tales that do teach these things and re-working them into modern day language, letting the action show the character, is a good idea. The Bluebeard story comes to mind as a good warning tale to young women who marry men who have a very attractive presentation and say all kinds of nice things, but inside are evil to the core.

 

[foofighter]

Maybe a solution would be to use some existing tales like "little red hood" or "Hansel and Gretel" where some psychopathic characters (the wolf, the sorceress) and psychopathic behaviours are displayed. Perhaps some gentle explanations (without falling into fear mongering) could clarify the symbolism of those tales.

Well that's just a thought, I hope it can help.

Thanks! Using tales is a good way to teach just about anything, and the examples above would be be very appropriate for my youngest, a 7yo. What about teens though? Any others that would be appropriate? Maybe some movies? I just watched "Little Shop of Horrors", and the psycho veggie from space is a great example, as is the dentist played by Steve Martin.

As for fearmongering, in part I think it comes down to what language you use to present it, and in part whether they are able to see it in themselves, so that it's not just something "over there". I try to be as non-judgmental as possible both when describing the problem, and talking about it in themselves, which I think helps a lot. They know that even if they have done something wrong I won't stop loving them, or somesuch, which is a crucial part of it.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Guillermo del Toro's movie Pan's Labyrinth is an excellent fairy tale that even presents the psychopathy angle. The "fairy tale" part of the movie parallels the "real life" part, so the child's journey (which takes archetypal/fantasy form) plays out in real psychological drama involving the obstacles of psychpathy and the mindless conformity of her mother. It's a good model to use, but it's probably too violent for kids.

 

[foofighter]

Guillermo del Toro's movie Pan's Labyrinth is an excellent fairy tale that even presents the psychopathy angle. The "fairy tale" part of the movie parallels the "real life" part, so the child's journey (which takes archetypal/fantasy form) plays out in real psychological drama involving the obstacles of psychpathy and the mindless conformity of her mother. It's a good model to use, but it's probably too violent for kids.

Yes, Pan's Labyrinth is an excellent movie in terms of explaining psychopathy, but it is definitely not for kids of that age. For myself I made the terribly bad judgment of showing Animatrix to them, as a way to exemplify some of these ideas, but that was way too disturbing and violent, and so the point didn't get across.

See, this is what makes this particular task so difficult. To find a way to explain these crucial concepts to kids/teens, on their terms, in a way that they can understand and which is not so violent that all they will see is violence.

 

[Smallwood]

I haven't read ISC so I don't know exactly what level of terminology it has, but I'm sure there are some alright TV-documentaries on basic psychology/psychopathy with which teens will get the basic stuff pretty quickly, that is if they are receptive to such concepts. If they aren't, talking to them about psychopathy in theoretic terms is probably quite difficult. In the end, I think it boils down to the recipients own life experience (or lack thereof) with such people. I speak from my own experience when I say that it is also important to not bore people needlessly with this subject! It is important and good that you plant the seed, even in the case of your children arm them with knowledge, but if you insist upon it too much they probably think you are a little nuts (has happened to me). But you probably know this.

What about teens though? Any others that would be appropriate? Maybe some movies?

Yes, yes, YES! There are many good ones about psychopathy, there is a list of such here under "Movies & Trivia" somewhere. I'll include my short list of recommendations on this. They all do cater to the darker taste so they aren't for younger teens though.

A Clockwork Orange (A classic. There really is no better movie to portray the fact that we have some fundamentally sick individuals walking among us)
Caligola (VERY graphic, but is also an excellent movie on Ponerology for those already understand the basics of it)
There Will Be Blood (this has the best movie-psycho that I've ever seen, so chilling that it left me breathless)
The Last Seduction (a very accurately portrayed woman psychopath. Highly recommended if you ever find yourself teaching a class about psychopathy)

Also the South Park-series for all it's gross and ponerized stuff got one thing right with the Cartman character. There are many episodes which show classical manipulations and such, frankly quite too numerous to include all. But perhaps the most noteworthy ones being the "Awesom-o" from season 8 and "Cartman sucks" from season 11.

See, this is what makes this particular task so difficult. To find a way to explain these crucial concepts to kids/teens, on their terms, in a way that they can understand and which is not so violent that all they will see is violence.

I think teens aren't unreachable, it is just that the right way hasn't been found yet. I'm sure there is one. As for kids I think it might not even be necessary. Maybe more important would be to teach them simple ways to avoid coming into negative contact with people of any age, as well as to encourage discernment if possible.

There is certainly a lack of material on this subject for teens/children, what little there is most certainly doesn't seem to take into account many hard realities that cannot be denied. Time is short for us here (or so it seems to me at this point), but we have so many members of so many different nationalities with so much privileged knowledge of psychopathy that I think we could come up with many ways as to how to produce material that actually helps people grasp this concept better.

 

[Ruth]

Harry Potter seems to have reached a whole lot of children this generation. In fact, its probably one of the most successful recent fictional books dealing with fascism and psychopathy.

 

[agni]

[quote author=Laura]

On the other hand, leaving the stories as "fairy tales" might tend to make the child think "it's just make-believe, it's not real." But still, taking the fairy tales that do teach these things and re-working them into modern day language, letting the action show the character, is a good idea. [/quote]

Many slavic fairy tales have a "disclaimer" at the end: Fairy tale is a lie. but is a hint, for good men a lesson.
In Russian: "Сказка - ложь, да в ней намек, добрым молодцам урок. (sorry, could not make it rhyme in English)

Something similar might hint curious young minds to ponder.

 

[anart]

A Clockwork Orange (A classic. There really is no better movie to portray the fact that we have some fundamentally sick individuals walking among us)
Caligola (VERY graphic, but is also an excellent movie on Ponerology for those already understand the basics of it)

Just a note that I would absolutely not recommend these movies for teens - both are quite graphic and disturbing. Due to the sexual, and violent, content, neither would fall into the category of:

To find a way to explain these crucial concepts to kids/teens, on their terms, in a way that they can understand and which is not so violent that all they will see is violence.

And the only issue with this:

Also the South Park-series for all it's gross and ponerized stuff got one thing right with the Cartman character. There are many episodes which show classical manipulations and such, frankly quite too numerous to include all. But perhaps the most noteworthy ones being the "Awesom-o" from season 8 and "Cartman sucks" from season 11.

Is that it's seen as 'funny and cool' - so even though Cartman displays psychopathic characteristics, he's a cartoon character in a very 'cool' show - who often comes out on top - or if not on top, then none the worse for wear in the big picture.

 

[treesparrow]

Films about psychopathy that may be instructive and suitable to a younger audience could include -

The Night of the Hunter (1955) with Robert Mitchum as a psychopathic preacher who chases 2 youngsters across a southern state in America (forget which one). Told from the viewpoint of the children, it has a lost-in-the-woods fairytale quality, is not overly frightning (though sufficiently scary ) and has a happy outcome. It shows to kids perhaps that evil can masquerade as good.

The Good Son with Macaulay Culkin and Elijah Wood. Two young boys get together, have fun initially , until one of them starts to partake in some very nasty stunts . The other starts to wake up to the real nature of his companion.

And maybe for a teen audience - The Shape of Things - though some swearing in this.

 

[BassMann22]

Well I never had children, so my opinion and experience is limited. I believe we should stop under estimating our children and stop telling then lies or always watering down the truth. As a suggestion, how about sitting down with them and just telling them the truth. Today's children are much more cleaver then what think and give them credit for. Perhaps they would admire their parents even more later in life when they come across the hard facts anyway? In the back of their minds they will always know that my Mommy and daddy told me the real deal.

Bm22

 

[foofighter]

Well I never had children, so my opinion and experience is limited. I believe we should stop under estimating our children and stop telling then lies or always watering down the truth. As a suggestion, how about sitting down with them and just telling them the truth. Today's children are much more cleaver then what think and give them credit for. Perhaps they would admire their parents even more later in life when they come across the hard facts anyway? In the back of their minds they will always know that my Mommy and daddy told me the real deal.

Well, my children are not mine, and I'm a fairly new parent. But, so far I've noticed that they (and all their friends) already have quite strong emotional buffers that needs to be considered. Things they don't like to hear will bounce off of them like water on a duck. It's spectacular to watch the mechanicalness of it. So just "telling the truth" doesn't work with adults, and it doesn't work with kids, at least not mine. A whole lot of external consideration needs to be used to first pierce through those buffers, and then try to get a few points across. Yes, from an intellectual point of view I'm sort of impressed with them, but they are using a lot of it for buffers and deflection. And if I tell them too much, and they start talking about it in school, they will be in serious trouble, and so will I, so that's something to consider as well too.

 

[Smallwood]

Just a note that I would absolutely not recommend these movies for teens - both are quite graphic and disturbing. Due to the sexual, and violent, content, neither would fall into the category of: "To find a way to explain these crucial concepts to kids/teens, on their terms, in a way that they can understand and which is not so violent that all they will see is violence."

You are absolutely right on that. I did note that myself, but better to be certain for sure. I intepreted "teens" as covering 11-19 and figured that these movies could be alright to show for those in the older end (18-19). They are a great visual aid for recognizing psychopathic behaviour, but they don't exactly fit the bill as intented. I probably should have put that into context better.

Still, movies in general remain quite ideal for teens as a platform to learn something from (if they are to learn, that's another question). Sorry I don't have better examples, though I'm sure there are.

And the only issue with this: ...

Is that it's seen as 'funny and cool' - so even though Cartman displays psychopathic characteristics, he's a cartoon character in a very 'cool' show - who often comes out on top - or if not on top, then none the worse for wear in the big picture.

True. For the record I wouldn't recommend the show for it's other qualities. I guess if you have an older teen who already knows how dangerous a psycho can be it would be alright to have that bit of fun with the issue. Overall, it is probably too skewed to be of use in learning.

 

[mkrnhr]

Children can accept the notion of bad and good people. Most have nightmares and are horrified by the idea of killing human beings. IMHO the parents should discuss this issue, and introduce the idea of psychopathy in the sense that in real world, bad people do not look always bad as depicted in cartoons and moovies.
Unfortunately, television, with its banalization of violence, betrayal and lies (the actual cartoons of example are horrific in this way) relpaced the direct contact with parents around tales.
When I was young my old taunt told us about stories about a brave, intelligent a good boy who struggles against bad people, lies, and illusions, through "seven seas and seven mountains" and from time to time a little explanation of some parts of the story and how it applies to "real life".
A teenager who instinctively knows that not every beautiful people is good will be less likely to be trapped into manipulation, but with the television apparence-related culture it's difficult.