question about Political Ponerology

Color

Jedi Council Member
I was looking around the net for coverage on A. Lobaczewski Political Ponerology in my own language, and found a blog where's said that Lobaczewski
said in this book how the only way to deal with the psychopath is to kill him/her. The exact words of this guy were:

_http://whiskybar.blog.hr/arhiva-2007-02.html

blog said:
So, Lobaczewski and his followers are justifying the murder of psychopath cause they believe how no jail will re-educate them, just making them more crazier, and therefor, the only way to stop the evil in this world is to kill all those no-empathy psychopaths.
I didn't have a chance to read the book yet, but this looks completely twisted, from what I've read so far about the book and discussions on this forum. Can somebody please give me some info about what Lobaczewski actually said on the matter , that this guy used for such a statements?

Thank you
 
Unfortunately, even if this person were to actually read the book, he/she would get nothing out of it. The sentence you quote is so conversive it is pathological. Lobaczewski does not advocate the murder of psychopaths. A central tenet of his book is that violence and vengefulness are an opening for ponerogenesis, that is, violent activity creates an environment where pathologically violent individuals are given free reign to express their base instincts.

As for the person's statement, note that it is based on faulty logic AND a false premise. First of all, nowhere on this site or in Lobaczewski's book will you find the idea that "the only way to stop the evil in this world is to kill all those no-empathy psychopaths". This is patently ridiculous, and the fact that this person has lied about this says a thing or two about them. Whether for biological or monetary reasons, they are trying to discredit ponerology.

Second, note the faulty logic. He/she says that we are "justifying the murder of psychopaths" (not true) because jail cannot re-educate them. While it is true that jail does nothing to "fix" psychopaths, it does not follow logically that they should be murdered. In fact, Lobaczewski advocates humane treatment of psychopaths and prison reform. As it is, the 'system' is not adequately designed for the humane and proper treatment of psychopathic individuals.

The person making the comment reminds me of another internet troll I found trying to discredit ponerology. He said that the book should be ignored because Laura was associated with it. He even hypothesized that the book was actually written by Laura, to try to give her ideas credibility. Well, she must have done a great job then, because I am in contact with various psychologists and academics who have read the book, one of whom has called Lobaczewski a "latter-day equivalent of William James."
 
color said:
Can somebody please give me some info about what Lobaczewski actually said on the matter , that this guy used for such a statements?
Well, quite frankly, the guy made it up. First off, Lobaczewski has no 'followers' - secondly, no where in his book does he mention anything about murdering anyone. Whoever this 'whiskeybarblog' person is, he's clearly engaging in serious black and white (and twisted) thinking.
 
anart said:
Well, quite frankly, the guy made it up. First off, Lobaczewski has no 'followers' - secondly, no where in his book does he mention anything about murdering anyone. Whoever this 'whiskeybarblog' person is, he's clearly engaging in serious black and white (and twisted) thinking.
well, I was wondering if Lobaczewski said anything about murdering, what this guy could twisted, many people's comments were concentrated on that 'killing' part of his post. And he kept on repeating it and repeating it... So I really got curious why he's claiming such a thing. Now I know - he made it up. Ok. which makes perfect sense when reading he's fallowing words:
blog said:
Beside that, claiming how psychopaths are forming into collision cliques smells like cheap conspiracy theory which is used to take the focus out of real problems of injustice and damage of corporative capitalism. Not to mention how I despise separation of people on: normal and crazy.
Reading some of the other stuff he wrote I come to conclusion that he knows what he's doing with all those lies, and doing it with a purpose, cause his vocabulary is pretty expended and using many psychological quotes and phrases, mixed with 'boy from ur neighborhood' charm.
 
Color said:
well, I was wondering if Lobaczewski said anything about murdering, what this guy could twisted, many people's comments were concentrated on that 'killing' part of his post. And he kept on repeating it and repeating it... So I really got curious why he's claiming such a thing. Now I know - he made it up. Ok.
Sounds more and more like his reasons for lying are biological in nature:

Lobaczewski said:
Reversive blockade: Emphatically insisting upon something which is the opposite of the truth blocks the average person’s mind from perceiving the truth. In accordance with the dictates of healthy common sense, he starts searching for meaning in the “golden mean” between the truth and its opposite, winding up with some satisfactory counterfeit. People who think like this do not realize that this effect is precisely the intent of the person who subjects them to this method. If the counterfeit of the truth is the opposite of a moral truth, at the same time, it simultaneously represents an extreme paramoralism, and bears its peculiar suggestiveness.

We rarely see this method being used by normal people; even if raised by the people who abused it; they usually only indicate its results in their characteristic difficulties in apprehending reality properly. Use of this method can be included within the above-mentioned special psychological knowledge developed by psychopaths concerning the weaknesses of human nature and the art of leading others into error. Where they are in rule, this method is used with virtuosity, and to an extent conterminous with their power.
This is known to westerners as "gaslighting", from the movie Gaslight (1940), where a husband convinces his wife that she is crazy by causing the lights to dim, and then denying that they are in fact dimming. The effects on normal people of denying facts (i.e. lying) with such conviction are: confusion, anxiety, depression, and as Lobaczewski says, finding the "golden mean" between a lie and the truth. In this case, the golden mean was the idea that Lobaczewski must have said something about murder that could be twisted, when in fact, he had said no such thing in the first place.

Reading some of the other stuff he wrote I come to conclusion that he knows what he's doing with all those lies, and doing it with a purpose, cause his vocabulary is pretty expended and using many psychological quotes and phrases, mixed with 'boy from ur neighborhood' charm.
No doubt. It sounds like he has his fair share of "special psychological knowledge"...
 
hkoehli said:
Sounds more and more like his reasons for lying are biological in nature:

Lobaczewski said:
Reversive blockade: Emphatically insisting upon something which is the opposite of the truth blocks the average person’s mind from perceiving the truth. In accordance with the dictates of healthy common sense, he starts searching for meaning in the “golden mean” between the truth and its opposite, winding up with some satisfactory counterfeit. People who think like this do not realize that this effect is precisely the intent of the person who subjects them to this method. If the counterfeit of the truth is the opposite of a moral truth, at the same time, it simultaneously represents an extreme paramoralism, and bears its peculiar suggestiveness.
That's it. I was observing how others were trashing the book and the idea of psychopaths in power- all based on that 'murder solution' and cleverly used word 'fallowers' , and all that after he shortly and quite fairly explained the essence of Lobaczevski's book. Being able to see the effect this guy accomplished, tricking people into dismissing the whole thing because of that lie at the end of it... It's amazing. And even more amazing is how I fell right into the trap myself, as you pointed up here:

hkoehli said:
The effects on normal people of denying facts (i.e. lying) with such conviction are: confusion, anxiety, depression, and as Lobaczewski says, finding the "golden mean" between a lie and the truth. In this case, the golden mean was the idea that Lobaczewski must have said something about murder that could be twisted, when in fact, he had said no such thing in the first place.
And I should of known better... Because I was growing up with a cold lier who was denying facts and even whole events, trying to make me believe I'm crazy... Making up stuff which never happened.. wow... Thank you for your reply, cause for the first time I recognize this as a known game, not just a part of my personal experience and fight. It's like picking up pieces of my life and creating a picture I can finally understand better, the exact set up I was experiencing.
Lobaczewski said:
Use of this method can be included within the above-mentioned special psychological knowledge developed by psychopaths concerning the weaknesses of human nature and the art of leading others into error. Where they are in rule, this method is used with virtuosity, and to an extent conterminous with their power.
so much to think about...
 
Well, not to judge a book by its cover, but taking a look at the blog sorta gives you a feel for the person behind it...

Perhaps you could ask for the person to provide a direct quote from Lobaczewski's book where he says what this person is claiming. Then, translate it into English for us here...
 
Laura said:
Well, not to judge a book by its cover, but taking a look at the blog sorta gives you a feel for the person behind it...

Perhaps you could ask for the person to provide a direct quote from Lobaczewski's book where he says what this person is claiming. Then, translate it into English for us here...
good idea, I'll do that :)

edit: I did and also put a comment on his latest post, asking him to check my question, so that he can't say he didn't see it...
 
Here it goes:

Whisky bar 05.12.2007. 13:24 said:
Thus, in order to reduce psychopathic behavior in society and in government, a society must establish and enforce a reputation for high rates of detection of deception and identification of liars, and a willingness to retaliate. In other words, it must establish a successful strategy of deterrence. - http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/political_ponerology_lobaczewski_2. htm

From this I can read some sort of prosecution call. I wrote that text a long time ago and I didn't take the info from his book, but from the internet. At the moment I don't have all that info with me, but the quote above speaks to that account. Besides that, he claims how the difference beetwen the normal people and psychopaths is essencial, meaning they are not human, and as soon as you take away someone's humanity it means you can treat him whatever you like.
Any suggestions what to write him back?

Edit: Here are some more of his pearls from answering to other people's comments about Lobaczewski's 'murder-solutions',
(Thanks Deckard for the quick translation):

Whisky bar said:
Well, he doesn't say we have to kill them because they are not human, but because lack of empathy makes them evil, because they cannot sympathize with suffering of another being. Since the only purpose of punishment is education, and they are not capable to be educated then...

but, this criterion is discriminating and if we accept it many innocent would perish. In the end only innocent would be persecuted and psychopaths would be on the "witch hunt". Of course it is said that they are not really human, but the fact that they are not human shouldn't be reason to attack them, the reason should be evil they spread due to the lack of empathy. But as I already said, even if they really do spread evil due to the lack of empathy - this cannot be sole reason to exterminate them or discriminate against them, nobody is born white or without empathy of their own will and such discrimination leads to witch hunt. The story about lack of empathy and evil this lack produces is only excuse for prejudice against different and his arguments are based solely on impossible education of people without empathy.

besides there is also something else wrong in his theory- to say the evil is born out of lack of empathy provides amnesty for different "emotionally volatile" who are capable of injuring or hurting someone while they would die for their football club or country - so they are empathic as they shed tears when their team loses the game. Even in lynch, the only reason is empathy as people identify with suffering of the victim so much that they are capable of killing the first person being accused as perpetrator.
Conclusion: Empathy can cause good and also evil which means that the problem of evil is more complex then lobacevski posits and explains. Still I admit empathy can be a good detector of good and evil.

One of possible implications of this theory is that with empathy one is able to recognize good and evil, and although empathy is inborn biologically in people - if some neurons in brain are responsible for it - than good and evil becomes real, not just some abstract human term , since empathy serves us as a sense for detecting good and evil in the world, like eyes serves us to spot the difference between the red and blue color.. But, like we don't kill colorblind person, we shouldn't kill the one's without the empathy.

It seems that each time has it's attempts of simplifying the matter of evil. Before, Phrenology was one of those attempts, actually - the theory how just because of certain scull-shape a person becomes a criminal. That theory was dismissed. This new reasoning based on empathy is certainly an improvement, but neurologists could say, maybe, if humans are capable of developing the empathy by learning or is it really a matter of physiological conditions. If the latest is the case, then still it's not the reason to kill such a person, and I agree that instead we should try to neutralize their bad influence, somehow. And, who knows, it is possible that those persons are contributing to human population, in some way, because the development within the evolution happens through mutations among the breed.

I'll simplify a little: if psychopaths are indeed such a great actors, as Lobaczewski claims they are - why not putting them in theater, in movies and drastically improve those art branches... Anyhow, proclaiming one thing as absolute good and other as absolute bad one, always leads straight into a witch-hunting. And at the end, that hunt produces the absolute evil, but not as evil - human inborn, but the social situation pushes the man, which would be a good man in usual circumstances, to show his worst.
 
well it is obvious this person never read the whole book therefore I left the following comment there:

I am well aware that anything goes in the jungle of virtual reality these days still I was suprised reading the analysis of Political ponerology on this blog.
Firstly I doubt Mr. WhiskyB. read the book in its entirety. When I read his paralogisms which he uses to explain his attituddes and also to explain "attitudes" of Dr. Lobacezewski with his own spin it becomes crystal clear Mr. WhiskyB. based his review of Ponerology exclusively on net extracts from the book and then seasoned it with his own thoughts, preconceptions and beliefs.
This renders any furtehr discussion on Ponerology on this blog nebulous.
if he wishes to discuss this book properly I recomend Mr. Whiskyb. reads entire book from the begining to the end , after doing so I am preety much sure he will think twice before writing such nonsense.
Dr. lobaczewski is still alive and I suppose he would have every right to file a law suit against such defamations as are witnessed on this blog.
lets hope this situation is not the result of mr. WhiskyB.'s lack of empathy but solely of his wish for instant fame in blogosphere.


=End

Lets see what he will respond and if there is at least grain of sense in his discourse maybe we can invite him to discuss his doubts here. After all if he read the whole book such a long time agao (the review was left in February 2007) then his mastery of English language should be sufficient for this forum.
 
Honestly I don't know if there's any point in commenting back. Arguing with the pathological is relatively purposeless, as they'll disregard any point you may make using subconcious substitution and selection of data. You can see him doing this already with his ability to twist this:

whiskybar said:
Thus, in order to reduce psychopathic behavior in society and in government, a society must establish and enforce a reputation for high rates of detection of deception and identification of liars, and a willingness to retaliate. In other words, it must establish a successful strategy of deterrence. - http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/politica … czewski_2. htm

From this I can read some sort of prosecution call. I wrote that text a long time ago and I didn't take the info from his book, but from the internet. At the moment I don't have all that info with me, but the quote above speaks to that account. Besides that, he claims how the difference beetwen the normal people and psychopaths is essencial, meaning they are not human, and as soon as you take away someone's humanity it means you can treat him whatever you like.
Deterrence, as defined by normal humans means: the inhibition of criminal behavior by fear especially of punishment

As per the recent Best of Web Article by David Vincent:

The truth is, there is no oversight! Meaning, you can get away with anything, nothing is illegal because no one knows about it, or the few who do are either in on it or have a vested interest in keeping quiet. Whether you're runnin' guns, weapons, drugs, gold, diamonds, women, children, it just doesn't matter. As long as the old guard gets their resources, it's all good. And in the end, it's all about power. The people who really run this planet know that natural resources (oil, water, coltan, cobalt, etc.) are the key. The "War on Terror" is just a front for a geo-strategic resource grab on a massive scale.
Thus there is no deterrence right now, the psycho's running the show have no fear of punishment because they get away with everything they want. No one even brings up charges! That's how corrupt the whole system is. Whiskey takes 'deterrence' to 'punishment' which is a valid leap and then the pathological twist: 'Since they can't be rehabilitated they must be destroyed' which doesn't follow. He even makes another pathological leap: 'Since they must be destroyed, Ponerology is bunk and will result in witch hunts allowing Psycho's to kill normal people'

so it's very murky water, clouded by his pathological take on ponerology. I suppose it was bound to happen, but then again if anyone reads ponerology, and understands it, they'll see it coming from a mile away.
 
well I thought the same initially but then I saw what Ivana saw, over 20 comments to his defamations

- well this much I can do to set the record str8 - then whoever is interested in the truth will find the way to it
 
True that Deckard, drop a lil truth bomb at the gates of pathology. Just gotta leave yer expectations outta it... am having so fun much learning that lesson :-)
 
Color said:
Here it goes:

Whisky bar 05.12.2007. 13:24 said:
Thus, in order to reduce psychopathic behavior in society and in government, a society must establish and enforce a reputation for high rates of detection of deception and identification of liars, and a willingness to retaliate. In other words, it must establish a successful strategy of deterrence. - http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/political_ponerology_lobaczewski_2. htm

From this I can read some sort of prosecution call. I wrote that text a long time ago and I didn't take the info from his book, but from the internet. At the moment I don't have all that info with me, but the quote above speaks to that account. Besides that, he claims how the difference beetwen the normal people and psychopaths is essencial, meaning they are not human, and as soon as you take away someone's humanity it means you can treat him whatever you like.
Any suggestions what to write him back?
This quote is not even from Ponerology, it is from the commentary that Laura wrote. As Cyre pointed out, deterrence does not mean murder.

Whisky bar said:
Well, he doesn't say we have to kill them because they are not human, but because lack of empathy makes them evil, because they cannot sympathize with suffering of another being. Since the only purpose of punishment is education, and they are not capable to be educated then...
What nonsense.
 
Whisky bar said:
Thus, in order to reduce psychopathic behavior in society and in government, a society must establish and enforce a reputation for high rates of detection of deception and identification of liars, and a willingness to retaliate. In other words, it must establish a successful strategy of deterrence. - http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/politica … czewski_2. htm

From this I can read some sort of prosecution call. I wrote that text a long time ago and I didn't take the info from his book, but from the internet. At the moment I don't have all that info with me, but the quote above speaks to that account. Besides that, he claims how the difference beetwen the normal people and psychopaths is essencial, meaning they are not human, and as soon as you take away someone's humanity it means you can treat him whatever you like.
Well, that's easy. Lobaczewski never wrote that. That was part of my commentary which was extracted from this article here: http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/official_culture.htm It is actually following a quote from psychologist Linda Mealey and her study which focuses on deterrence. You'd really have to stretch it to say that deterrence - in this context - means doing intentional harm to a psychopath.

So, you can tell him that nothing like that exists at all in the work of Lobaczewski, but it DOES exist - in a very specific context - in the work of Linda Mealey.
 

Trending content

Back
Top Bottom