Reply to an Inquiry by Combsbt

Lazlo Toth

A Disturbance in the Force
Hello combsbt, Laura, Aziz, and all,

In answer to your inquiry (related to an article I posted recently which seems to now have disappeared down the proverbial 1984esque “memory hole”) about the dating of the worship of Krishna and the earliest development of his mythical tradition, you are correct combsbt that it could technically be pushed back to a “pre-Jesus,” late third century BCE date, which is the earliest period assigned to the development of the Maha-bharata, a huge Sanskrit epic (100,000 couplets) which underwent a lengthy development between c. 400 BCE and 400 CE. During this early period in its evolution, around the late 3rd century BCE, the renowned text known as the Bhagavad-gita, wherein Krishna teaches Vedantic philosophy to Prince Arjuna, becomes a part of the sixth book of the Maha-bharata. The story of Krishna is further developed in the Hari-vamsa, a text whose earliest layers are dated to the 1st or 2nd centuries CE, and which forms an appendix to the Maha-bharata. This text presents the earliest extant versions of Krishna’s early pastoral life and adventures. Additions to the text of the Hari-vamsa, along with the development of the Krishna avatara concept, are added up until the 12th century CE. The other major scripture in the Krishna-bhakti schools of Indian devotionalism is the Bhagavata-purana. This text was written in the Tamil-speaking area of South India sometime in the later 9th or early 10th centuries CE, although to give its message and narration “ancient” authority, its author imitates archaic forms of Vedic Sanskrit grammatical composition. The 9th-10th century CE dating of this text comes specifically from evidence in the body of the text that Sanskrit versions of Krishna-bhakti poetry written by the Alvar saints of South India, who lived between the 6th to 9th centuries CE, have been incorporated in multiple places within the text of the Bhagavata-purana. This 10th century CE text was probably also influenced by two earlier texts which deal with the adventures of Krishna – the Adi-purana (Brahma-purana), a Jain work also written in South India in the 9th century CE, and the Vishnu-purana, a work written and compiled at the end of the 3rd century CE, or the beginning of the 4th century CE.

Dating discussion and information on these Sanskrit texts can be found in The Oxford Dictionary of World Religions, John Bowker (ed.), Oxford: 1997 –

Maha-bharata (pp. 598-99); Bhagavad-gita (p. 139); Hari-vamsa (p. 410); Vishnu-purana (p. 1026); Adi-Purana (Brahma-purana) (p. 19); The Twelve Alvars: Krishna-bhakti poet-saints (p. 54); Bhagavata-purana (p. 140).

On the whole, and looking at the dates of these texts which form the heart of Krishna worship and devotion in India, I would still have to say that the major developments of what could be called the devotional cult of Krishna-bhakti in Hinduism or Indian religion would primarily be developments of the CE or “Common Era,” from the Hari-vamsa in the 1st century CE to the Vishnu-purana in the 3rd-4th century CE, to the Krishna-bhakti poetry of the Alvar bhaktas of the 6th to 9th centuries CE, to the 9th century CE Adi-purana, and finally to the 10th century CE Bhagavata-purana. Besides all of this, I have seen no evidence that the authors of the Christian gospels had any knowledge of Sanskrit or Indic sacred literature from either the BCE or the CE time periods.

And Aziz, my human brother/sister, I do not “hate” you or your guru. I only want that there be honesty and truth in the telling of human history and the history of its religions, and that the divine and sincere impulse in people to want to know the truth of the inner and outer reality we find ourselves in be freed from the faux scholarship and spiritual charlatanisms of corporate-sponsored “world religion” projects.

Is it wrong for Christians and Muslims (the globe’s two majority religious faiths) to question and wonder if part of the big globalist plan is to destroy, by degree, both Christianity and Islam in order to launch a “world religion,” which is just another necessary ingredient in their nouveau control grid? Atracus Sapien (in Laura’s above post) correctly mentions that back in the 19th century, the Illuminati-supported theosophist movement sought to form a “world religion,” and of course, they would have been the money-collecting gurus of the whole deal. So when we see the “Right Reverend Acharya S of the International Church of Astrotheology” basing her whole ‘schtick’ on re-worked 19th century theosophical and Masonic “scholarship,” it just makes our modern, academic “spidey senses” tingle. I’ve seen five decades of this jazz, so I didn’t need to waste a lot of my valuable research time on reading and analyzing every little detail of Ms. Murdock’s thesis. From Laura’s copious postings (and I thank her for them), however, I see that others (Robert M. Price, Rook Hawkins, Mike Licona, and Atracus Sapien) have devoted more time than I in analyzing the myriad of problems in her thesis and methodology. All of these critics also seem to have a common theme that honesty is an important part of being a real scholar and researcher. Inherent in the empirical method is the component of scientific and academic honesty. I also find it highly interesting, from a statistical standpoint, that although I am unfamiliar with the critiques of these aforementioned critics of Ms. Murdock’s work, we all separately presented the same major elements of critique, all of which were based on almost the same reasons, yet seemed to be coming from different religious and academic backgrounds. For example, Atracus Sapien, someone like myself with an Indian and Sanskrit background, brings up the problem of New Age gurus taking advantage of the Western audience’s general ignorance of all things Indic and ancient. He also rightly points out that there are significant conceptual differences between the Indian concept of an avatar and the concepts inherent in Judaic messianism, which all developed during the Babylonian Exile in the 6th century BCE.

Thank you Laura for your copious postings of text and links to yet more text on the “Acharya S” micro-phenomenon. I didn’t even know that there was so much informed and detailed critique on this. I will admit though that it does give me a bit of hope that there are people out there who are awake to the real con being played here, and that they are opening their mouths and providing rational commentary on it all as well.

With regards to the demonstrably ancient “pagan” influences on Judaism, between the beginning of the third millennium BCE, with its developments of Sumerian and Egyptian writing systems and the beginnings of the preservation of older orally transmitted myths in text form, and the 9th century BCE (the earliest probable period for the beginnings of biblical text development), stands just over two millennia of mythic and cultic tradition, influence, and development in the ancient Bronze Age of the Near and Middle East. All writers, composers, etc. are influenced by, and borrow from, other earlier artists to be re-worked into something else through their own skills. If, for example, the English group Radiohead is clearly influenced by the Beatles’ music of the “White Album” period, this doesn’t mean that their music is to be rejected because it is not 100% New and Original. As Laura mentioned, there is a baby in all that bath water.

I would also like to clarify that the Hebrew Bible is a monumentally influential piece of “religio-history literature” and that the classical Hebrew poetry in it is well-crafted and excellent. I never said that the Hebrew Bible wasn’t worthy of spiritual respect or study, only that it is not 100% historically and theologically “unique,” as every child is so often told in Sunday School. I was only referring to its literary genres and mythic-theological content as being clearly influenced by earlier models, and therefore not entirely “unique.” The compilation of many separately produced books into a sacred unity and organized canon of scripture is, however, very unique in the history of the ancient Middle East, and is a distinctively Hebrew contribution.

The Hebrew Bible is referred to as the Tanakh, which is the pronunciation of the Hebrew acronym TNK. This acronym refers to the Hebrew Bible’s tripartite division into Torah (the Mosaic Law), Nevi’im (the Prophets), and Kethuvim (the Writings). In the earliest Hebrew reference to this compilation, it was called ha-seferim (“the books”), which in Greek became ta-biblia (“the books”). Because the majority of Jews in the post-Persian period spoke and read either Aramaic or Greek, not Hebrew, the Bible had to be translated into those two more familiar languages for the benefit of the widespread, Middle Eastern and Mediterranean diaspora of Jews. This gives us “the Septuagint” (the Hebrew to Greek translation) and “the Targum” (the Hebrew to Aramaic translation).

No one here commented on the strange juxtaposition of the Acharya S thing with the 9/11 thing in the “Zeigeist” film. Is it unreasonable to assume, based on a pile of evidence and historical precedence, that Israel may have had a big hand in the 9/11 false flag terror attacks and the subsequent “War on Terror,” i.e. the campaign to have America kill and subjugate “Israel’s enemies?” What say ye of these things which lead us ever closer to the brink of a nuclear WWIII?
 
LToth said:
(related to an article I posted recently which seems to now have disappeared down the proverbial 1984esque “memory hole”)
We're currently trying to figure out what happened - just realized it's missing!
 
In the “Gospel of Thomas” Jesus is reported to have said that if you seek the truth, you shall find it, but in finding it, you may also become shocked or disturbed by what you find. That is my take on the perhaps HACKED article I wrote and its accompanying in-depth discussion of these things, with excellent contributions by Laura, Anart, and the crew.

Most people are not strong enough, or mentally equipped enough to handle the truly horrific truths behind our modern world, and there are folks who are temporarily powerful enough to command the strings needed to delete any information that they find disturbing or contrary to their agendas of information domination and propaganda control. They win small battles, censorship battles here and there, but the total Information War has already been lost by them, and they fully know it. The king stands naked. The king is a cosmic fool, and everyone knows it and sees it. The fascists of the New World Order have already lost. They are all old men who shall die soon and seek the Gates of Hell for their crimes and lies against Humanity. That is guaranteed and written in stone. That is something I do not even worry about. The guilty shall be punished along with their lawyers, either in this realm or in the next. This you shall certainly see.

I do not fault the good folks at SOTT. I suspect outside HACKERY, which I have heard your site is a target of. Perhaps, you could ask "Aziz" and his friends where the text went.

Om Tat Sat, Thanks a Lot...
 
It's still available as a cached page (the first page) - http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:-C-xr45ylEUJ:www.sott.net/signs/forum/viewtopic.php%3Fid%3D9093+Zeitgeist+Acharya+site:sott.net&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us here is the initial post, perhaps the posters could copy and paste to recreate it ... (and still working on simply re-enstating the thread - so far all that seems clear is, and I quote from one of our tech geniuses, "something very strange happened"... ) So - just in case we can't just 'make it reappear' here is the initial post...

The “Zeitgeist” Fraud, Judaism’s Pagan Roots, and 9/11

Dr. Lazlo Toth

From a more scientifically rigorous and disciplined academic training in scholarly empiricism and research, I would have to say that the presentation that forms the first part of Peter Joseph’s film “Zeitgeist” is a complete travesty of serious scholarship and research into ancient Near Eastern archaeology, history, and religion, and is basically a disingenuous, cheap ploy to “make a buck” over an already over-commercialized, yet ever fascinating “PRODUCT,” i.e. “The Mystery of Jesus and the Ancient World.” Ooo... The kidz will love it. Send it by the marketing department and throw up some graphics. Because the vast majority of people are fairly uneducated with regards to the ancient Middle East or India, “New Age” charlatans thus never fail to come along each decade, seemingly thinking that they can just make up any crap they want without anyone ever finding out that their theses are nonsense. Thus, important and fundamentally human, spiritual, historical, and scholarly issues are basically reduced to bogus, juvenile research techniques, conscious deception, and crass “new-agey,” agenda-driven globalist commercialism.

Peter Joseph, in the first section of his film “Zeitgeist” hangs the hat of his sloppy religion thesis upon the research and writings of a young lady in her mid-20s named D.M. Murdock who writes under the pen name of “Acharya S.” According to her biographical entry at Wikipedia, she has a B.A. in Classics (Greco-Roman studies) from Lancaster, Pennsylvania’s Franklin & Marshall College, a school with some interesting White House alumni and an interesting American heritage (one of its founders was Benjamin Franklin).

In Ms. Murdock’s thesis, which she has become quite successful at marketing to a gullible world, she collects together a potpourri sampling of mythical literary characters from different cultures and “pagan” religious traditions, and asserts that the authors of the Christian Gospels constructed the life history of Jesus based upon the mythic literary motifs found in the stories of such characters as Horus (falcon-headed son of the Egyptian underworld god Osiris); Dionysus (son of Zeus and Greek god of wine and debauchery); Heracles (son of Zeus, Greek hero god); Adonis (Greek god modeled on the Mesopotamian vegetation god Dumuzi or Tammuz); Mithras (Persian-Aryan god of Roman soldiers); Odin, or Othin (chief of the Nordic sky gods and warriors whose mythology was developed seven centuries AFTER Jesus); Quetzalcoatl (an Aztec serpent god whose worship and mythology in Mesoamerica also began seven centuries AFTER Jesus); Krishna (the Hindu cowherd god whose mythology and worship began its development in the “Christian Era” or “Common Era” AFTER the time of Jesus), and just to make these mythical, literary characters look quasi-historical, she throws in a single person from real history – Gautama Muni, “the Buddha.” She hypothesizes that all these characters are “sons of gods” and are all ultimately derived from primordial solar cults. Thus they are not only “sons of gods,” but solar deities, or sun-gods as well. Hence the title of her second book, “Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha, and Christ Unveiled.” The title, of course, is a nod to another crackpot scholar’s work, “Isis Unveiled” by Madame Blavatsky. The very first problem here is that in Hindu sacred texts, such as the Hari-vamsa, the Bhagavad-gita section of the Maha-bharata, or the Bhagavata Purana—all written DURING and AFTER the time of Jesus in Sanskrit, a language wholly unknown to the Gospels’ authors—Krishna is not a “son of God,” but is considered to be the supreme God himself, and Krishna is also not a solar deity either. The sun-god in classical Hinduism, and in the Vedas of the Aryan priesthood, is named Surya. Acharya S’ next “Sun of God” is Buddha, a man who taught a brand of moral, spiritual, metaphysical atheism based initially upon the philosophy of the Sanskrit Upanishads of India. Gautama Muni (the Buddha, meaning “enlightened one”) would be the last to claim that he was the “son of God,” or was some type of solar deity. Although the concept of a “son of Zeus” being born of a “virgin birth” was indeed Hellenistic, and the mythic motif of dying and rising gods associated with the seasonal fertility of the earth was one of great antiquity, nonetheless, I am near certain that the historical Yeshua of Galilee would not have considered himself a solar deity.

Ms. Murdock also seems to think that the English word “hour” is derived from the Greek name for the Egyptian falcon deity Horus. This is, of course, a prime example of the bogus, New Agey linguistic charlatanism that she subscribes to and tries to make her case with. She neglects to take into consideration that English, Greek, and Egyptian come from completely different language families, and that the name “Horus” is the Greek interpretation of the actual Egyptian name “Heru,” which has no relationship to the word “hour” or its English meaning of a 60 minute time period. Actually, Egyptologists do not even know what “Heru” means, other than it being a name for the son of Osiris and Isis. The rule in scholarly archaeo-linguistics is, just because two words from two different languages sound alike, or even nearly alike, does not necessarily preclude that they have a common linguistic derivation or meaning. This is especially so when trying to make comparisons between ancient Semitic languages (Akkadian, Aramaic, Hebrew, Arabic, etc.) and non-Semitic languages such as Greek, Latin, or English. If “Acharya S” had some academic training in these things, she would not try to force-fit the Egyptian name “Hr,” or “H(e)r(u)” into the English word “hour” and use it to support her nutty astrology thesis regarding the composition methodologies used by the Hellenized, annonymous authors of the four gospels that were selected for inclusion in the New Testament.

One of the major problems with the kaleidoscopic mix and match motif so dear to New Age-Manichean religious philosophies is in their setting of a scheme or template that everything must somehow fit into, even if it doesn’t. This template is usually too narrow and inarticulate because of the template-maker’s inexperience with the subtleties and details of another religion, language, culture, history, and symbol set. When trying to blend or unite in a single thesis, not just two, but many religious symbols, literary cultures, and divine figures, the tendency to make uneducated, often ridiculous deductions is that much more compounded.

To build her bogus, done before, yet imaginative thesis, “Acharya S” uses highly questionable secondary “research” and “evidence” compiled by the “scholars” of 19th and early 20th century Masonry (the Masonic “History of Religions School”). She also uses for her translations of Egyptian texts, the highly inaccurate and outdated translations of E. Wallis Budge. Our understanding of the grammar and vocabulary of the Egyptian language, as well as Egyptian religion and history has advanced leaps and bounds beyond the scholarship of Budge’s time of a century ago. Also, forming outlandish modern hypotheses using discredited or incorrect research results from 100 to 150 years ago borders on disingenuous, to say the least. Ms. Murdock, or “Acharya S” is basically a charlatan and bogus scholar who sells the fruits of her own clever little imagination and questionable secondary sources under the rubric of “innovative historical research and ground-breaking scholarly analysis,” which it certainly is not.

If she wants to make a case for “influence” or “borrowing” from regional story templates and earlier Hellenistic mythic motifs by the authors of the four Gospels (chosen by the early church from among many texts) in order to fill in the biographical holes of the man behind the teachings, it is certainly possible to argue that case, but to move from the ancient Near and Middle Eastern motif of the “dying and rising vegetation god” to the assertion that Christianity is some kind of carefully contrived, conspiratorial lie is just childishly absurd. Her thesis that the story of Jesus is a combination of “pagan myths” which form an “astro-theology” of the Solar Godhead is just imaginative New Age nonsense. Her no-source hypothesis is that “the pagans” knew that all of these ancient myths were non-historical and purely symbolic, but the Church went about censoring all the myths of the ancient world so that people would not see them as components or ingredients in the story of Jesus, and therefore would think that the Jesus stories were historical. She then concludes that this censorship of myths by the Church caused widespread illiteracy in the Christian Era, which is a problematic notion as illiteracy was actually widespread throughout most historical periods of human history.

“Acharya S” feels that the biography of Yeshua Ben-Yosef (Iesous, Jesus) is based upon pagan solar mythology, yet her non-comprehension of a vast amount of complex and variegated global solar myth is boiled down to the three day period of Yeshua dying and rising, supposedly like the sun at winter solstice, and coupled with the completely modern astro-calculation of the sun entering the houses of the Zodiac at 30 degrees, she somehow thinks that this would provide story material for the Gospel writers to have Jesus begin his ministry at age 30. And all of this, of course, is based upon 19th-20th century astrological notions and calculations?

Ms. Murdock’s wholly unoriginal thesis that the New Testament is a work of mythic fiction set within a historical setting is worked out in her third tome, “Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of the Christ,” which the marketing department has declared a sure-fire moneymaker with guaranteed appearances on Oprah. If one were interested in a more rational assessment of the historical Jesus, I would highly recommend a book written by real scholars, “Excavating Jesus: Beneath the Stones, Behind the Texts” by John Dominic Crossan, Professor Emeritus of religious studies at DePaul University in Chicago, and Jonathan L. Reed, a leading authority on first-century Palestine archaeology and lead archaeologist at Sepphoris. I would also recommend the Greek-to-English translation of the Gospels “The New Covenant” (with informed and enlightened commentary) by Indiana University professor Willis Barnstone, a renowned Greek scholar and poet.

As someone with a supposed B.A. in Greco-Roman classics, “Acharya S” definitely displays a rather shallow notion of Roman and Roman period Middle Eastern history. Perhaps she squeaked through to graduation with a “C” average. For example, in an interview with “Paranoia Magazine,” she describes the Jews as “one of the most despised races of the empire.” Again, this is total nonsense. The Jews were actually a privileged and prosperous class of people throughout the Roman Empire, and in classical Alexandria in Egypt, they made up nearly half the population during both the Greek and Roman periods. This is attested to in numerous census and legal documents, personal letters, and other preserved records of the time.

D.M. Murdock’s (“Acharya S”) agenda of uneducated, juvenile hatred towards Christianity is clearly expressed in the same above-mentioned interview where she said, “I remember being utterly repulsed by Christianity in college and post-graduate school, when I spent a great deal of time in Greek Orthodox Churches, where just about every neurosis and psychosis is manifested.”

http://www.paranoiamagazine.com/acharayas.html

According to her Wikipedia entry, “Acharya S” has a B.A. in ‘Classics’ from Franklin & Marshall College, but in her “Paranoia Magazine” interview, cited above, she is saying that she was utterly repulsed by Christianity in POST-GRADUATE SCHOOL, i.e. she is alluding that she did post-doctoral research, which she did not. In the same interview she explains, “I was living in Manhattan, somewhat rudderless, after spending a year of post-graduate studies in Greece.”

In other words, she had graduated, got her B.A. from Franklin & Marshall, and hung around Greece for a year after her graduation (“post-graduate”). She is obviously unaware that “post-graduate studies” means AFTER your Ph.D., not after your B.A.

At this point, and having analyzed much better charlatans of the past, and after looking at her writings, I am really questioning whether she even has a B.A. in the first place, or is even a real historical person, to tell you the honest truth. I am sensing either a useful idiot and/or sell-out for the NWO global religion project, or someone playing the character role of a “public figure,” created by elements in some intelligence agency (and I won’t say who) to push for the erosion of American nationalist cohesion through the disintegration of its essentially Christian foundations, i.e. division through religious denigration and doubt. These folks are very, very slick, I’ll give ‘em that much.

D.M. Murdock is a clever opportunist, and yet another promoted, useful idiot; the newest incarnation of another generation of popular charlatan, faux scholars of “ancient mysteries and histories.” She simplistically and naively takes on subjects way beyond her assumed academic training, short life experience, or researched understanding. As someone who has paid attention to these things for many years, I must honestly tell you that she knows basically zip about Hinduism or Sanskrit literature; she knows zip about Buddha or Buddhism in all its developmental variations; She has no idea who the Hittites, Hurrians, or Amorites are; she knows zippo about Mesopotamian or Egyptian languages, histories, or religions, but hey, what the hell is a young girl with a B.A. in “Greco-Roman classics” from little Franklin & Marshall College supposed to do to make some bread? She refers to her first book, “The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold,” as the Christ-con. This, of course, is what is known in psychology as the mental phenomenon of “projection.” She herself, barely out of high school, is an actual amateur con-artist, charlatan, and materialistic opportunist, yet she “projects” her own deceptive self into her belief that Christianity and all religions (except Judaism, of course) are conspiratorial con-games, entirely and consciously devised by an evil cabal of priests to gain control over a gullible populace.

D.M. Murdock (“Acharya S”) really needs to do some serious graduate-level history and religion work, and apply principles of honest and empirically founded scholarly evidence to her thesis proposal. She also needs to seriously update (as in time) and revise her list of references and sources. If I seriously tried to bolster a thesis using citations from charlatan, snake oil salespersons such as Zecharia Sitchin and Madame Blavatsky, I would be laughed right out of any serious conference of accredited scholars and researchers.

As far as other charlatans, bogus scholars, and ancient New-Agey gurus go, such as Zecharia Sitchin and Eric von Daniken, they have it way over her in their respective schticks. She is a total High School amateur when it comes to this game. Her pen name is also a joke. The Indian spiritual and scholarly title of “acharya” comes from the Sanskrit word “achar” which refers to conduct and character informed by wisdom. She has thus adopted a rather elevated title for such a foolish little girl, whose understanding of Middle Eastern history, archaelogy, and culture is pretty simplistic and juvenile. Actually, her understanding of human history in general is pretty much the same. What sets Acharya S’ research apart is that it is basically on a high school senior level of writing and analysis, yet mysteriously, she is given full publicity and publication privileges, which means that although unqualified, she is for some reason successfully promoted by the media nonetheless. Hmmm... I heard through the grapevine that a fellow professor, long esteemed in his field, just last year gave an “F” to a young woman of about the same age as “Acharya S” who turned in a research paper on Mesopotamian religion using Zecharia Sitchin and his dubious “sources” as the basis for her thesis on how early Mesopotamian religion—the archaeologically earliest discernibly organized human religion—has its roots in an extraterrestrial, alien civilization. It sounds like fantastic material for a great screenplay, and it is, but it is also not true, at least to those who live in the non-fictional world and have dedicated their intellectual and scholarly lives to actually understanding the origins of early human civilization and its cultural and technological developments.


There also seems to be a very interesting and revealing double standard in play here when the mainstream media is only too happy to promote the mockery and denigration of Christianity and Islam, but would certainly be sure to step back aghast, shocked and firmly offended if only a tenth of the same sort of treatment were to be given to Judaism. I also find it rather interesting that underlying Ms. Murdock’s general thesis, there seems to be a strong motive to demonstrate that Christianity is a “hoax and a lie,” which places suspicions in my mind with regards to the actual motives of Zeitgeist’s producer. Would she receive the same promotional enthusiasm and facility if she were to put out a scholarly presentation on how Judaism as a religion and the Hebrew Bible as a literary collection are almost entirely derived from earlier, polytheistic sources, say with a title such as “The Hebrew Bible and its Pagan Sources”? Would she get mass media promotion and support with this thesis, despite its academically sound sources? I seriously think not.

THE HEBREW BIBLE AND ITS PAGAN SOURCES
It has often been asserted that the god, scripture, and religion of Judaism is something of historical and spiritual uniqueness, and that the content of the Torah (the five books of Moses), the Nevi’im (the Books of the Prophets), and the Kethuvim (the Writings, such as “Psalms,” “Proverbs,” “Job,” etc.) form a historically unique revelation by the one true God to his specially “chosen people.” As empirical history, archaeology, and the discovery and translation of Near Eastern texts of far greater antiquity than the Bible have shown, this is not the case at all. Judaism and its sacred scriptures are in fact, for the most part, derivatively constructed from much earlier, so-called pagan text sources and cultural traditions, specifically those of ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia – two civilizations which were highly influential on all Near and Middle Eastern cultures for two millennia before the name of the tribe of Israel was first mentioned (as a tribe already in Canaan) on the victory stela of the Egyptian ruler Mer-en-Ptah (1213-1203 BCE).

The polytheistic “pagan” sources for the three major mythic elements in the Book of Genesis—Creation, The Garden, and the Deluge—can all be found in pre-biblical, Mesopotamian religious texts, and are available in English translations made by real Assyriologists and scholars. A good sampling of these texts can be found in “Myths from Mesopotamia: Creation, The Flood, Gilgamesh, and Others,” Stephanie Dalley (trans.), Oxford: 1989.

CREATION
The creation story as presented in the Book of Genesis is clearly derived in its structure and symbolism from the much earlier Babylonian text, called by its earliest translators “The Seven Tablets of Creation” (the “Enuma Elish”). The Hebrew scholars, scribes, and priests involved in the writing of religious literature would have certainly initially encountered this renowned text in their employment within the Babylonian administrative system during their fifty-eight year Babylonian Exile from 597 to 539 BCE.

THE GARDEN
A most likely model or source for the Hebrew story of Adam and Eve can be seen in the Mesopotamian story called “Adapa,” which tells of the wise god Ea creating a son named Adapa and teaching him all the names of plants, animals, and constellations. After his education is given to him by his creator and father, the young Adapa is sent to Heaven to meet the highest god, Anu. There, on the advice of his father Ea, the young Adapa offends the other Mesopotamian deities at a banquet in Heaven by refusing to eat their food, or drink their water. His father had told him that the gods will offer food and water, but it is the “food of death” and the “water of death.” In this tale there is no “apple of death” as in Genesis. Upon his refusal of the gods’ hospitality, Adapa is then cursed, loses his immortality, and is kicked out of the Garden, so to speak.

The lines of dissemination into pre-Israelite Canaan of this Mesopotamian story, which clearly forms a model for the Adam and Eve tale in Genesis, are shown to us from Egyptian sources. The 14th century BCE Egyptian pharaoh, Akh-en-aten, the actual founder of the very first monotheistic religion, carried on his international correspondence and cultural exchanges in the Akkadian language with the Kassite king of Babylonia, the Hittite and Hurrian kings of Anatolia, and the Canaanite kings of Ugarit and Byblos. In his royal capital in middle Egypt, called Akhet-aten—a city he specifically founded for his new, monotheistic solar religion—fragmentary tablets were found among this cache of royal correspondence, written in Akkadian cuneiform and preserving to us this story of the god Ea’s creation and instruction of Adapa, and how mankind lost its immortality. In both stories, the creator-father god of both Adapa and Adam is portrayed as deceiving his creation. The snake in the Garden of Eden tells Adam and Eve that YHWH is lying, and that the forbidden fruit will not kill them, but will actually give them and their children immortality like the gods, which is something YHWH is trying to keep from his human creations. In the story of Adapa, Ea lies to his son by telling him that the actual and real “bread and water of eternal life,” which the gods were going to give him and honor him with, are to be refused as agents of Adapa’s certain death. He refuses the gods’ hospitality, and loses for himself and the rest of mankind created after him, the gift of immortality.

THE GREAT DELUGE
The Hebrew authors of the Book of Genesis have also modeled their story of the Great Flood from two “pagan” text sources: “The Epic of Atrahasis” and “The Epic of Gilgamesh.” The original Noah character is thus from Mesopotamia. In the Sumerian versions of the story he is called Ziusudra. In the Akkadian versions, he is called Atrahasis, meaning “exceedingly wise," and in “The Epic of Gilgamesh,” this hero and survivor of the Great Flood is called Ut-napishtim. Although the story of the Great Flood is referred to in Sumerian texts from the beginning of the 3rd millennium BCE, the fullest version of this epic tale is found preserved on clay tablets written in the Old Babylonian dialect of Akkadian, and dated to around 1700 BCE. The Hebrew version of the story also follows, almost exactly, the same narrative pattern and sequence as the Mesopotamian original, with the bird being sent out from the Ark to find land, and all the rest of the story’s now familiar motifs.

THE EXODUS AND CONQUEST OF CANAAN: HISTORY OR MYTH?
In two scholarly texts, written by real, and accredited, biblical archaeologists and scholars, the two foundational narrations of biblical and Israelite history—“The Exodus” and “The Conquest of Canaan”—are thoroughly proven to be non-historical events, as can be shown by decades of persistent archaeology in the region, especially in the Sinai.

These two works are “Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From?” by University of Arizona professor of Near Eastern archaeology and anthropology, William G. Dever, and “The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology’s New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts” by Tel Aviv University professor of archaeology, Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman, director of the Ename Center for Public Archaeology and Heritage Presentation in Belgium.

The supposed 13th century BCE Exodus of 700,000 or more Hebrew slaves out of captivity in Egypt, led by a man named Moses who received divine revelation from God as a burning bush in the Sinai; this incident where the one true god YHWH revealed that these now free and wandering Hebrew tribes were His “chosen people” from among all the nations; this incident where he awarded them the land of the Canaanites in perpetuity DID NOT HISTORICALLY HAPPEN. It is an etiological folk story of a tribe’s origins. All tribes have etiological origin myths. All tribes are “chosen” by their god.

I will let the well-known biblical archaeologist William Dever explain:

“The miraculous, larger-than-life story of the Exodus as it now stands in the Bible cannot be corroborated as factual history....given archaeology’s recent documentation of the rise of early Israel within Canaan...there is no longer a place or a need for the Exodus as a historical explanation for the origins of Israel. The story, however dramatic, however central to the self-identification of later biblical Israel—or even our own identity in the West—is best regarded as a myth. In this case, it is just the sort of origin myth that has characterized many other peoples past and present.”


(William G. Dever, Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From?, Cambridge: 2003, p. 232.)

“But what about the conquest and settlement of Canaan as depicted in the books of Joshua and Judges? As we have seen, there is little that we can salvage from Joshua’s stories of rapid, wholesale destruction of Canaanite cities and the annihilation of the local population. It simply did not happen; the archaeological evidence is indisputable. It is conceivable that there was a military chieftain and folk hero named Joshua, who won a few skirmishes here and there. But there simply was no Israelite conquest of most of Canaan. Mendenhall was right about that forty years ago, as were Continental biblical scholars even earlier.”

(William G. Dever, Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From?, Cambridge: 2003, pp. 227-28.)

Concerning the folk character of Moses, the story of his birth has been clearly identified by scholars as having been derived from the very same birth story originally assigned to the 24th century BCE Akkadian king, Sargon the Great. This birth tale can be found translated into English from the original Akkadian in James Pritchard’s “Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament,” published by Princeton University Press.

Aside from having derived their mythology in the Torah from “pagan” Mesopotamia, the Hebrew authors of the Bible in the Kethuvim (the Writings, i.e. “Psalms,” “Proverbs,” “Ecclesiastes,” etc.) appear to have borrowed rather regularly from Egyptian Middle Kingdom (2055-1650 BCE) and New Kingdom (1550-1069 BCE) moral and instructional-wisdom literature. Even the Middle Kingdom genre of prophetic and apocalyptic literature was used as a model, or source, for material found in the Nevi’im (books of the Prophets) section of the Hebrew Bible, or the Tanakh. See for example, Egyptian Middle Kingdom texts such as, “The Prophecies of Neferti,” “The Admonitions of Ipuwer,” or “The Complaints of Kha-kheper-ra-seneb.”

With regards to this Egyptian ‘instructional’ literature, Professor Miriam Lichtheim of the University of California at Berkeley wrote:

“Egypt and Mesopotamia were the earliest practitioners of this class of writings, to which the name “Wisdom Literature” has been given. Their example contributed significantly to the subsequent flowering of the genre among the Hebrews.”

(Miriam Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, Volume I: The Old and Middle Kingdoms, Berkeley: 1973, p. 134.)

Not only are the major biblical myths and literary genres borrowed from polytheistic “pagan” cultures, but the very concept of monotheism and the god of the Israelite tribes is borrowed and derivative. As shown in the cuneiform texts from the ancient city of Ugarit—our most complete look at the religion of the Canaanites—the deity YHWH was actually adopted by the Hebrews as their sole god from out of a Canaanite pantheon of many gods; a pantheon wherein YHWH was the brother of the storm-god Ba’al, and both were the sons of the supreme Canaanite god El. In other words, even the god of the Hebrews was borrowed from the pagan culture which they, as a tribal confederation, supposedly rejected. The Canaanite origins of the adopted Hebrew deity YHWH are very briefly explained by the renowned professor of Near Eastern Studies at Brandeis University, Dr. Cyrus H. Gordon. Among many clay tablets of Ugaritic religious poetry, there is a passage where El, the supreme deity of the Canaanite pantheon of gods declares to the divine assembly, “The name of my son is Yw-El.” In the footnote to this passage, Professor Gordon writes:

“‘Yw-El’ is the son of the head of the pantheon. This suggests that ‘Yahweh’ (‘Yw’) was originally El’s son in pre-Israelite Canaan. It is usual for a younger god to eclipse the older gods in the development of religion. In other words, just as Zeus eclipsed his father Cronus, Yahweh eclipsed his father El. Subsequently, Hebrew monotheism necessitated the identification of Yahweh with El.”

(Cyrus H. Gordon, Ugarit and Minoan Crete: The Bearing of Their Texts on the Origins of Western Culture, New York: 1966, p. 61.)

The notion of monotheism itself is also not unique to the Israelite tribes, and finds its first historical expression in the solar Aten cult of Pharaoh Akh-en-aten in 14th century BCE Egypt, which preceded the Hebrew Bible and Judaic religion by at least six and a half centuries. Thus, even the concept of a monotheistic religious cult is not original to the Hebrew tribes, nor is the concept of divine laws engraved on stone tablets like the Ten Commandments. This is another idea borrowed by Hebrew story-tellers from the much older, Bronze Age traditions of Mesopotamian law tablets and stone law stelas like that of the 18th century BCE Babylonian monarch, Hammurabi. Depicted at the top of this seven-foot stone stela, beneath which are carved 282 legal injunctions, the sun-god Shamash, Lord of Justice hands the divine laws to his regent on earth, King Hammurabi. This Mesopotamian sun-god Shamash even shows up as the lead candle, or “shamash light,” in the Jewish menorah-lighting ceremony at Chanukah.

“Zeitgeist” and 9/11
So here are my three questions:

1) Is the idea with “Zeitgeist” to put this basically anti-Christian, New Age crap up front so that intelligent, educated people, and especially the Christian majority in America, will turn the film off and dismiss it as BS for gullible kids and paranoid conspiracy buffs before they even get to the 9/11 part?

2) Does Peter Joseph also set up the film like this to associate, and somehow join, the 9/11 issue with crazy, New Agey crap research, which also conveniently plays into the NWO plan of destroying Christianity, American nationalism, and the setting up of a global religion?

Then, of course, if you do finally make it to the 9/11 part of the movie, it’s the old, Bush and Cheney let violent Muslim hijackers attack the U.S., and please say nothing about Israel, except perhaps that Mossad lived down the street from the “Muslim hijackers” in San Diego, or that on 9/11 there was a dancing Israeli clown crew with video cameras and Bic lighters at Liberty Park in New Jersey, just across the river from the WTC. In “Zeitgeist,” 9/11 truth is again not “officially” allowed to go past the “we know somebody with inside access blew up those buildings” boundary, and that’s it until we finally get that never going to happen new, impartial and independent 9/11 investigation.

3) When will we see a 9/11 Truth movie that covers the following, often little discussed and overlooked items?

REMOTE AVIONICS and AIRPORT SECURITY

1) Israeli Remote Aircraft Technology Connections –
Dov Zakheim, who happens to be a major PNAC signatory; a senior member of the right-wing Zionist Organization of America (ZOA); Pentagon Comptroller on 9/10/01 when $2.5 billion goes missing; and in 2000, was the CEO of Systems Planning Corporation of Virginia. This company, a USG contractor, makes a remote control avionics system rather ominously named the Flight Termination System (FTS), which can remotely operate, from a single FTS Module, up to six different remotely controlled large commercial or military aircraft, even helicopters, on six different user-chosen, programmable flight paths. To install the communications complement to such a control system on a commercial aircraft, one would naturally need airport and aircraft security access.

2) Israeli Airport and Airline Security Connections –
General airport security and United and American Airlines security at Boston’s Logan and Newark International on 9/11 were handled by a company called Huntleigh USA, which is owned by an Israeli company called ICTS International (Integrated Consultants on Targeted Security). This company also has headquarters at Tavistock South in London, nearby to where a large bus blew up on 7/7/05 in another “Islamic terror incident.” The company’s two owners, Menachem Atzmon and Isser Harel are also of dubious and shady reputation. Harel, now dead, was a founder of Mossad, and Atzmon is someone with involvement in Israeli PM Ehud Olmert’s current political and financial scandal. All investigation into ICTS and Huntleigh USA, of course, have been stopped by NY Judge, Alvin Hellerstein, who is also a friend of Judge Michael Mukasey, the current AG and former handler of the Silverstein-Lowey 9/11 insurance swindle.

BUILDINGS AND DEMOLITIONS

Israeli Building and Demolition Connections –
The handling of WTC property transfer, ownership, access, and control was handled between three principles who all belong to the same clubs and organizations, and are all intimate friends with people like Ariel Sharon, Rupert Murdoch, and Benjamin Netanyahu (who coined in the mid 1980s, and by now has probably trademarked, the term “war on terror”). Three significant pro-Israel powerbrokers were involved in the acquisition process of the buildings, or the “targets” – New York real estate developer Larry Silverstein, Australian shopping mall mogul Frank Lowey, and head of the NY-NJ Port Authority Lewis Eisenberg (whose uncle Shaul sold U.S. nuke secrets to China in the 1970s with help from H. Kissinger). After getting booted out of Goldman Sachs for raping his secretary, Eisenberg was appointed to head up the NY-NJ Port Authority by NJ Governor Christine Todd Whitman (remember her?). His primary mission, or directive, was to privatize, i.e. sell off, Port Authority properties such as the WTC. Enter from stage right: Silverstein and Lowey.

From these personal and private connections, there is a direct line between a major “control point” at the Port Authority and a major “control point” at the WTC, which means, at the one end, access to real uniforms, fake IDs, fake paperwork, etc. and on the other, carte blanche, 24-hour building access, including weekends. Instead of using real Port Authority workers, i.e. patriotic, loyal Americans who would never do it, you bring in the Israeli military demo crews, working out of Urban Moving Systems on 55th Street, to gradually wire the buildings for demolition. ‘People might get killed, but people get killed every day, and if the operation will benefit Israel and our people, then it must be done.’ This is the thinking within the fanatical ideology of the right-wing Zionist “true-believer.” It is a cultivated 80-year mindset. The “employer-employee” connections between Israeli-owned Urban Moving Systems, headquartered in Weehawken, NJ, and Israeli military and intelligence operatives with explosives experience and access to varieties of hi-tech incendiaries only surfaced on and after 9/11, when six different Israeli terror plots using explosives were foiled across the U.S. and into Mexico. No Arabs are found on or after 9/11 riding around in explosives-laden moving vans, ONLY Israelis, who would then be quietly deported by Michael Chertoff, current Mossad controller of the U.S. “Homeland Security” Department.

THE ATTACK ON THE PENTAGON
This was preplanned from at least early Fall of 2000, see the models, construction plans, and evacuation drills from that year. This part of 9/11 was certainly an “inside” Pentagon operation, and here is where you will find your Cheneys, Rummys, and “confused and bewildered” Generals. At the center of this nest, you will also find the planners and coordinators, the Wolfowitzes, the Doug Feiths, the Eliot Abramses, the Dov Zakheims, and so many more. The remotely controlled, or arrested, aircraft that hit New York, and which provided the false flag impression of an attack by “suicidal Muslim hijackers” flying huge aircraft like veteran aces, as well as the obvious demolitions of the twin towers and WTC7, was the operational responsibility of the Israelis and their helpers. Outsiders provide plausible deniability to insiders if discovered. This was the “outside” part of the plan, and it naturally was made possible and facilitated by inside, ‘non-Arab’ helpers or sayanim in New York and other strategic places. It was a real-world, staged, high-tech terror production. It was a terror show put on by SOMEONE with all means, motives, and opportunities, and blamed on SOMEONE else (a favourite enemy), who perhaps had motive, but no means, opportunity, or the necessary level of “inside” help. All of this was perfectly facilitated by being staged on a day where multiple military exercises were already in progress and would provide unknowing cover and just the right amount of confusion. If Bin Laden could not have known of Cheney’s called-for military exercises, who else could have possibly known that 9/11/01 would be the perfect day to pull off something like the “terror attacks” of 9/11? At the big AIPAC shindigs, Cheney is always introduced as “the best friend that Israel ever had.” Real Jews would beg to vociferously differ on that notion, however.

So when someone says that—based on a lot of incriminating operational, financial, and personnel connections—it would most certainly appear that militant, right-wing Zionists within the government, military, and intelligence of Israel, and their American neocon (Trotskyite) cohorts working as moles within the USG are the ones behind the 9/11 attacks, such a statement is not said out of prejudice or hatred towards either Jewish people in general or Israelis in particular, but rather it is said because of the preponderance of the above types of highly incriminating criminal case information, as well as the documented historical patterns of ideology and action found in Israeli and Zionist terrorism operations from 1930 up to the present. In other words, the 9/11 operation and its components fit into a well-documented profile which points in a very particular direction, one which the actual inner group of conspirators are deathly afraid of being revealed, understood, or discussed on a mass scale. When the real people behind 9/11 are revealed and understood, then their ballgame is over and their control will be wrested from them. They must therefore preserve their lies and deceptions at all costs and by all means.


No large group (Jew, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, etc.) should take the blame, scorn, or punishment for the insane actions of a small criminal cartel that may operate among them and use innocent people and their faiths as shields to conceal the evil deeds of a clever, devious minority. The real criminals and terrorists, of course, play on fear to compel silence and compliance. They will tell you, “If Christian America ever finds out that 9/11 was an Israeli/American Neo-con Job meant to convince their sons to die for Israel’s plan to exterminate the Arabs, under the guise of fighting the “Muslim terrorists” who supposedly attacked America on 9/11, they will kill us all and drive us out of America after cutting off all foreign aid and economic-military relations with Israel.” I seriously and highly doubt, however, that if it were explained in the right way, American Christians would suddenly turn around and wage war on American Jewry over the involvement of a small Zionist minority in 9/11. I would wager that the Congress would definitely be called upon by a vast majority of citizens to cut off all future foreign aid and military funding to the state of Israel, and America would definitely want a new 9/11 investigation then.

It is very highly doubtful that the terrorists who attacked America on 9/11 were Arab or Muslim, but the real terrorists, the false flag operators with the longest history and most experience at this, are still out there, and they must be individually identified and collectively brought to justice, because if not, they will attack again whenever it suits their murderous plans. It is a deadly global game being played by psychopaths, traitors, thieves, and deceivers who have unknowingly sealed their own dark fate.

All the best and good luck with the great floods.
 
Ok - it's been restored - http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=9112&p=1 ~whew~ - - but still working on how and why it happened - that should be very interesting...
 
anart said:
Ok - it's been restored - http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=9112&p=1 ~whew~ - - but still working on how and why it happened - that should be very interesting...
Bad request. The link you followed is incorrect or outdated.


Seems its gone again :|
 
I decided to delete the thread and ban aziz simply because the topic is not worth pursuing for several reasons.

1) Lazlo Toth seems not to be involved any more other than to have posted the original article which started the nonsense. I don't have the time to "fight his battles for him." And nobody else seems to be all that interested or capable of doing the research or deal with the topic. And, since "Lazlo" isn't interested enough in THIS forum to finish what he started, I don't see any reason to support his agenda with MY time and energy. Yeah, I could spend the next few months going through Acharya's work line by line, reference by reference, but what's the point?

2) Someone using the name "Lazlo Toth" has posted this same item elsewhere, so it is not original to this forum as he/she suggested. Thus, it appears to be just a "flame job." The name "Lazlo Toth" is also a handle that has weird associations that do not lend themselves to the seriousness of the topic.

3) Acharya is a sloppy researcher in some instances, but I happen to agree with a lot of what she says even if I don't agree with ALL her reasons or the way she gets there. She makes some unsupported and unsupportable claims that do not agree with current Biblical research - or any research - but then that's her prerogative. I am unable to find any body of work by Lazlo Toth that supports HIS authority to criticize.

4) Aziz is just an Acharya bot. I don't see any reason for our forum to be hijacked for this flame war. Acharya is doing her thing according to her lights, she has the right. I don't see that she's hurting anybody.

5) If Lazlo wants to state his/her area of expertise and create a thread on the topic that he/she can handle, that's fine. Go for it. But tone down the references to Acharya personally and stick to the facts of the case.

I noticed that Lazlo's first post here: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=6979 promotes a website that appears to be his own. That's fine. The article was good even if it lacked citations, etc. This was over a year ago. To date, Lazlo has made 9 posts. Two of those posts are, again, his own articles. See:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=7310
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=7404

Both of these articles are also good and generally appropriate.

However, upon re-reading the Acharya article, as I mention above, a great deal of it seems to be simply ad hominem attacks on Acharya who, as I also mention, has made some useful conclusions even if she is a sloppy researcher.

So, the bottom line is this, Lazlo, if you want to criticize Zeitgeist, do so. Re-create the thread with an edited version of your original post. Cite your sources, and be prepared to stick to the topic and defend it. And, do a bit more research yourself. I have other things to do and I do not need to be made the topic of the discussion nor does Acharya. I believe that readers can draw their own conclusions about the people involved in Zeitgeist if you just stick to the subject matter.

And, if you want to have an idea of what is or is not defamatory, just read all the case documents of our current lawsuit linked from the Eric Pepin thread.
 
Let me also add that certainly, anyone can start a thread about Acharya. But if you do, please present data, i.e. FACTS that have sources that can be verified. If you don't have facts, don't draw conclusions.
 
I was reading an article earlier on the History of Astrology. This lead me to a monologue by the authour for SacredMysteries website, which many of you know about.

Through that website I found Acharya and her book Christ Conspiracy, which lead to finding its links to Zeitgeist, as one of the sources cited for the movie. Actually, according to the transcripts her books are referenced quite a few times.

Searching the forum for Christ Conspiracy, Zeitgeist and Sacred Mysteries I found some interesting topics, including the Libel and Defamation thread.

I am not going to invest the time to research into all the details on this as there are other topics I am more interested in presently, but reading this thread I thought it might be worthwhile to note that Acharya does seem to have a connection with SacredMysteries, There is a 5-part interview between her and Weidner for example.

Just FYI.
 
See: http://cassiopaea-cult.com/jay-weidner-aka-phils-blog-aka-2012conference-org
 

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