Roommates, chores/spending, & behavior

Cyre2067

The Living Force
Howdy Guys & Gals, I've been attempting to observe my behavior, as always, and have noted some confusion when it comes to exercises in external consideration. I find myself wondering, am I practicing it to the best of my ability? What can I change in order to enhance it? To illustrate my recent struggles I'll share a few examples from my life and perhaps you all can point out where I need work and where I'm spot on.

The first situation is within my apartment and dealing with my roommates. To give some background, I've lived in my current spot for about a year, a few weeks more so, actually. Two of the roomies, we'll call them Raymond and Mary, have been here longer then I and one, Bela, has just moved in as of last November. To give an idea of their personalities, Raymond is a bit of a princess, by that I mean she is somewhat demanding, a bit passive aggressive, and has the potential to bully, though not necessarily everyone nor equally. He works for a major fashion company, travels often, and works very hard. Mary is a hostess, but her passion is opera and she's been trying to get her career off the ground with varying degrees of success. She's direct and sweet, but not really good at handling negative emotions in a productive way. Bela works for a university, she does financial aid stuff for students. She's from the middle east, very worldly and liberal in her thoughts, and the one roommate who seems to have a bit more maturity then I do. She gives great advice, and has no problem communicating it a direct, respectful manner. Myself, I'm pretty direct in my communications, though I have a tendency to ignore passive-aggressive behavior, or joke about it to lighten the mood. I tend to take responsibilities on that I probably shouldn't and that's where I'm looking for feedback.

So we've lived together in relative harmony for awhile now, however a few weeks ago we had a bit of a passive-agro-fest, which got me thinking that I needed to reevaluate and reorganize my strategy. By passive agro fest, I mean that Raymond had been using our white-board to correct behaviors, of mine in particular, that he didn't like. It happened three times or so in quick succession, and even sometimes he wrote on the board while I was home, in my room, instead of coming to me directly. Raymond 'corrected' me for leaving the brita on the counter instead of in the fridge (he likes his water COLD), leaving some dirty cookware out (2-3 hours max after I used it and I never leave things out overnight), and demanding 'someone' replace some light bulbs (after he said he'd take care of it and never did).

Mary also came home, quite distraught from an audition, and yelled at me because she didn't like the way the apartment had smelled (I burn scented candles and incense, sometimes sage), and I smoke cigs out my window during the cold weather spats. She also mentioned me 'leaving candles on' in my room which was a fire-hazard, 'a bunch of times' and it 'making her anxious'. I apologized and said I'd pay closer attention - though I never thought I left anything burning, it may have happened though I cannot be certain. Even if it happened the candles are built into glass holders, so even if it got tipped over somehow there's no way anything could catch fire, nor does the glass itself get very hot as the flames are small and wide.

I tried my best to smooth things over with both of them, and mentioned we should have a 'family meeting' to address issues directly and openly, and to help establish understood house rules and chore duties. We haven't had anything of the sort since I've lived here, and things tend to get done on a hap-hazard need-basis with no real assigned responsibilities. The meeting hasn't happened yet and we've been planning it for over a week now, it just seems that our schedules conflict and when they didn't (we had one night open that worked for everyone) I got one confirmation out of three saying that they'd be able to come and are planning on it, and then semi-yelled at because I didn't show up (two of them did).

After that I kinda 'lost interest' because, as usual, I felt a house-responsibility became a 'Brent-responsibility' and I shut down into 'well let them deal with it' mode.

Some other things that have been erking me have to do with chores and buying supplies. We have no way of tracking who spends what on what nor how often. So things just kinda 'get bought' when needed by people as it comes around to 'their turn'. Though we have no real way of making it fair. The same is true for chores. I tend to take care of the kitchen, by myself, since I use it the most and I like it clean. That said, I also take out the garbage/recycling and run the dishwasher/put the dishes away. I don't clean the living room since I barely use it, and since Bela and I share a bathroom we alternate cleanings.

What I think would be fair would be making a google spreadsheet to track purchases and dollar amounts, that way everyone could update it as they make purchases, and/or list things that need to be bought. Perhaps there's another solution, that's just what's popping in my mind. However, I know that Raymond will not want to put forth any effort in order to make things fair because he gets away with spending the least and doing the least in terms of chores due to his princess-entitlement issues.

I also think dividing up the cleaning assignments would be a good idea, with or without rotating. I have no problem cleaning the kitchen, but I also have to clean the bathroom, if I could only do one or the other I think that would be fair (we have four roommates, kitchen/living room and 2 bathrooms). So everyone could handle one room. As to how often the other clean the other rooms I have no idea, I only really know when Bela cleans the bathroom.

Sometimes I feel like a doormat, but at the same time I feel there is more I could do to make things go more smoothly. Apologies for the length, feedback, as always, is greatly appreciated. :cool2: :cool2: :cool2:
 
Hi Puck --

Given everything you've described, I have some initial feedback. First, regarding the complaints that you described by your roommates, I have different reactions to Raymond and Mary. In Raymond's case, it does seem like he may be complaining unfairly -- as you describe it, his complaints do seem rather nitpicky. Mary, on the other hand, does seem to have more legitimate complaints -- since the four of you share the same living area, anything involving smoke is going to affect everyone, and so it seems like the considerate thing to do there would be not to light anything up inside unless all parties agreed about it. The same is true for the candles -- if you are lighting them and leaving them unattended, then I think her concern about the fire hazard is probably warranted.

More generally, I'm impressed that you guys have functioned up until now without a more organized system. I think it's not a bad idea to use an Excel spreadsheet or something on your whiteboard to divvy up both the household expenses as well as the chores. If you really do feel like a doormat, then this is a good way to have things laid out in an objective way (everyone reporting what they spend on household necessities as well as what chores they do) so that if you feel that you are taking more share of the burden, you can show it on the spreadsheet. Your other roommates could do the same if they felt that way as well.

The meeting is a good idea if you guys can pull it off -- if I understood you correctly, you organized it at one point and then failed to show up, and that would be your fault. Just make sure to follow through with whatever you agree to -- that way, no one can excuse their own behavior by pointing their finger at yours. It also seems that Bela might be the easiest for you to communicate with, followed by Mary and then Raymond, so you might try to discuss household strategy with them in that order. If you have the girls in agreement with you about getting things organized fairly, it will probably be easier to make it past Raymond's self-entitlement.

I am sure there's a lot more that could be observed about your situation, but I hope this gets the ball rolling. Good luck, and happy lesson-learning :)
 
Shijing said:
Hi Puck --

Given everything you've described, I have some initial feedback. First, regarding the complaints that you described by your roommates, I have different reactions to Raymond and Mary. In Raymond's case, it does seem like he may be complaining unfairly -- as you describe it, his complaints do seem rather nitpicky.

Well, concerning the water case i see it differently. If Puck knows that Raymond likes his water cold, it is not such a hassle to put a brita back in the fridge. It's externally considerate, requires little effort, and might keep Raymond strategically at bay from finding excuses to nick-pic, if that's what he likes to do. But i agree with Mary's concerns being legitimate.

Shijing said:
More generally, I'm impressed that you guys have functioned up until now without a more organized system. I think it's not a bad idea to use an Excel spreadsheet or something on your whiteboard to divvy up both the household expenses as well as the chores. If you really do feel like a doormat, then this is a good way to have things laid out in an objective way (everyone reporting what they spend on household necessities as well as what chores they do) so that if you feel that you are taking more share of the burden, you can show it on the spreadsheet. Your other roommates could do the same if they felt that way as well.

The meeting is a good idea if you guys can pull it off -- if I understood you correctly, you organized it at one point and then failed to show up, and that would be your fault. Just make sure to follow through with whatever you agree to -- that way, no one can excuse their own behavior by pointing their finger at yours. It also seems that Bela might be the easiest for you to communicate with, followed by Mary and then Raymond, so you might try to discuss household strategy with them in that order. If you have the girls in agreement with you about getting things organized fairly, it will probably be easier to make it past Raymond's self-entitlement.

I too thought that organizing your responsibilities and coming in common agreement, is a good idea, so you can offer the ideas you have Puck, and see what they say. I like Shijing's suggestion about discussing them with your roommates in strategic order too. My thought when i first read your account was that, if Mary and Bela are in agreement with you, then what can Raymond do? Well, he can be creative of course to avoid his responsibilities, but then you won't be alone in seeing that he is doing it, i think. Fwiw...
 
Alana said:
Shijing said:
Hi Puck --

Given everything you've described, I have some initial feedback. First, regarding the complaints that you described by your roommates, I have different reactions to Raymond and Mary. In Raymond's case, it does seem like he may be complaining unfairly -- as you describe it, his complaints do seem rather nitpicky.

Well, concerning the water case i see it differently. If Puck knows that Raymond likes his water cold, it is not such a hassle to put a brita back in the fridge. It's externally considerate, requires little effort, and might keep Raymond strategically at bay from finding excuses to nick-pic, if that's what he likes to do.

Actually, I think that's a good point and I agree with that. If Puck is wanting to make a case for Raymond taking on his fair share of the responsibilities, then taking care of something like this would probably only help.
 
I noticed in your post you said you left the Brita out and your roommate likes his water cold. Here is a link to a Brita product that you can attach to your sink so you don’t have to keep refilling the Brita pitcher. I also like filtered water I found that this product works great and is more convenient.

http://www.brita.com/products/faucet-filtration/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=faucet+filter&utm_campaign=SEM-NonBrand
 
[quote author=Puck]

What I think would be fair would be making a google spreadsheet to track purchases and dollar amounts, that way everyone could update it as they make purchases, and/or list things that need to be bought.

[/quote]

We use an excel spreadsheet with a column for each person and a column for a description of the payment. The formulas are set to divide anything we write in our own column between me and my flatmate, and then add it to a balance for each person. I call it the ElectroTab!
 
Hey Puck

My impressions were pretty much the same as Alana and Shijing.

Regarding Mary’s candle burning concerns- I can see where she is coming from. If you want to burn candles you should ‘put it on the floor’ at your meeting and ask if it’s ok to do this. And mention that if you do light them, you’re going to be 100 % conscious of putting it out if you’re not in the room yourself. I’d say even blow them out if you’re stepping out for a minute to go to the bathroom as it takes no effort to light it again once you return. Once discussing it in the meeting, ask what kinds of smells Mary likes and buy the candles that have smells you both like. That way the smell wouldn’t be of bother to her.

Regarding the smoking- if it’s the smoking smell that’s bothering her, you may have to dress up and go outside to smoke. This can be a pain- but its part of being externally considerate while sharing a living space imo.

puck said:
To give an idea of their personalities, Raymond is a bit of a princess, by that I mean she is somewhat demanding, a bit passive aggressive, and has the potential to bully, though not necessarily everyone nor equally.

Regarding Raymond’s behavior-from what you’ve described it does seem as if he’s a bit of a narcissist. So starting the spread sheet is a good idea imo and also splitting up the chores should be discussed in the meeting. You should also discuss it with him that you’d appreciate if he’d came to you directly if he has a problem, rather than writing it on the ‘white board’- especially if you’re home as this kind of behavior creates conflict. Though I do agree with Alana about putting the water back in the fridge because it takes no effort.

puck said:
The meeting hasn't happened yet and we've been planning it for over a week now, it just seems that our schedules conflict and when they didn't (we had one night open that worked for everyone) I got one confirmation out of three saying that they'd be able to come and are planning on it, and then semi-yelled at because I didn't show up (two of them did).

After that I kinda 'lost interest' because, as usual, I felt a house-responsibility became a 'Brent-responsibility' and I shut down into 'well let them deal with it' mode.

This seems a bit discourteous on your part. I don’t see how you felt as though the house-responsibilities became a ‘Brent responsibility’ if two of your roommates did take the time to show up to the meeting. So I can see how the two that did show up would have been annoyed at your absence as the meeting was initially your idea. So, I’d say set up another meeting and this time, be sure to show up! ;)

These were my impressions fwiw.
 
Hey guys, first off thanks for all your feedback and impressions. We just had our little meeting tonight and it went very well. We divided up the cleaning assignments, came to a consensus for buying stuff and chores, and got the communication flowing with our personality clashes and little things that we do that erk one another. It was very cleansing and I'm glad it happened.

For some reason, the roomies thought the spreadsheet for buying things was complicated and rather have a turn-based system. I brought up the point that people don't necessarily spend equally and so this is an objective way we can measure how much we're all contributing, and they thought it was fine, but no one wanted to share responsibility of maintaining the spreadsheet. So I said I'd do it, and keep everyone posted on who needs to buy what when.

About the first meeting fail, the reason it happened was we had a system in place to confirm and only one person had confirmed. I had plans and didn't want to cancel them on a 'maybe', I feel like if people had planned to show up they could at least express that directly. Is that an external consideration fail on my part?

Everything else, I agree spot on with your impressions.
 
Puck said:
The first situation is within my apartment and dealing with my roommates. To give some background, I've lived in my current spot for about a year, a few weeks more so, actually. Two of the roomies, we'll call them Raymond and Mary, have been here longer then I and one, Bela, has just moved in as of last November. To give an idea of their personalities, Raymond is a bit of a princess, by that I mean she is somewhat demanding, a bit passive aggressive, and has the potential to bully, though not necessarily everyone nor equally. He works for a major fashion company, travels often, and works very hard.

Is Raymond male or female? It's a bit confusing from what you have written above.

Puck said:
Raymond 'corrected' me for leaving the brita on the counter instead of in the fridge (he likes his water COLD),

Simple solution: external considering says put it back in the fridge immediately.

Puck said:
leaving some dirty cookware out (2-3 hours max after I used it and I never leave things out overnight),

In this house, we expect all cookware to be cleaned immediately or almost immediately - no leaving it 2 or 3 hours, even - since the next person who wants to use it may come along any minute. That's just external considering when you live with others and each individual often does their own cooking. On the occasions when a meal is cooked for everyone, the cook does not have to clean the cookware, those who eat the meal do it voluntarily.

Also, each person either washes their dishes immediately after eating, or puts it in the dishwasher. Whoever puts the dish in the washer that makes a "load" adds the soap and turns it on.

It's simple, but effective. You always do right NOW what is your responsibility, no putting it off unless there is a darn good, pressing reason.

Puck said:
and demanding 'someone' replace some light bulbs (after he said he'd take care of it and never did).

Here, we have a house engineer who generally takes care of those things. In your case, whoever is available and sees that it needs to be done and has a minute to do it should do it.

Puck said:
Mary also came home, quite distraught from an audition, and yelled at me because she didn't like the way the apartment had smelled (I burn scented candles and incense, sometimes sage), and I smoke cigs out my window during the cold weather spats.

I would yell at you too. It is totally inconsiderate to do things in a communal environment that affect others without their express wish for it to be done, or at least, without asking them first. What smells good to you may not smell good to another. Also, burning incense can be toxic to a lot of people.

Puck said:
She also mentioned me 'leaving candles on' in my room which was a fire-hazard, 'a bunch of times' and it 'making her anxious'. I apologized and said I'd pay closer attention - though I never thought I left anything burning, it may have happened though I cannot be certain. Even if it happened the candles are built into glass holders, so even if it got tipped over somehow there's no way anything could catch fire, nor does the glass itself get very hot as the flames are small and wide.

Doesn't matter. Fire is very dangerous and I've seen fire act like it was alive and jump barriers and do things you would not believe. Some people have strong fire anxiety and this should be respected. (I'm one of them.)

Puck said:
Some other things that have been erking me have to do with chores and buying supplies. We have no way of tracking who spends what on what nor how often. So things just kinda 'get bought' when needed by people as it comes around to 'their turn'. Though we have no real way of making it fair. The same is true for chores. I tend to take care of the kitchen, by myself, since I use it the most and I like it clean. That said, I also take out the garbage/recycling and run the dishwasher/put the dishes away. I don't clean the living room since I barely use it, and since Bela and I share a bathroom we alternate cleanings.

What I think would be fair would be making a google spreadsheet to track purchases and dollar amounts, that way everyone could update it as they make purchases, and/or list things that need to be bought. Perhaps there's another solution, that's just what's popping in my mind. However, I know that Raymond will not want to put forth any effort in order to make things fair because he gets away with spending the least and doing the least in terms of chores due to his princess-entitlement issues.

I also think dividing up the cleaning assignments would be a good idea, with or without rotating. I have no problem cleaning the kitchen, but I also have to clean the bathroom, if I could only do one or the other I think that would be fair (we have four roommates, kitchen/living room and 2 bathrooms). So everyone could handle one room. As to how often the other clean the other rooms I have no idea, I only really know when Bela cleans the bathroom.

Sometimes I feel like a doormat, but at the same time I feel there is more I could do to make things go more smoothly. Apologies for the length, feedback, as always, is greatly appreciated. :cool2: :cool2: :cool2:

See my comments above.

Now, in general, living with other people takes a LOT of external considering - even in a real family. If you live with people who do not take responsibility or care about others, or practice external considering, then you are the one who ought to carry the burden. But only if you can do it without feeling resentment.

There are many difficulties in communal living and it only really works if all are sincere and committed and honest and NOT selfish or self-centered. It's all to easy to say "no, I'm not going to do THAT because I already do THIS." Thing is: are you there? Does it need to be done? Are you capable of doing it? If you answer yes to those questions, then just do it as a gift to the Universe, not necessarily as an obligation to those other people.

Of course, it would make things a lot easier if all of them acted the same way. Then things would always get done and there would be no resentment. But that is not likely to happen so, as I said, the burden falls on the one with knowledge.
 
In this house, we expect all cookware to be cleaned immediately or almost immediately - no leaving it 2 or 3 hours, even - since the next person who wants to use it may come along any minute. That's just external considering when you live with others and each individual often does their own cooking. On the occasions when a meal is cooked for everyone, the cook does not have to clean the cookware, those who eat the meal do it voluntarily.

Also, each person either washes their dishes immediately after eating, or puts it in the dishwasher. Whoever puts the dish in the washer that makes a "load" adds the soap and turns it on.

It's simple, but effective. You always do right NOW what is your responsibility, no putting it off unless there is a darn good, pressing reason.


This is something Hubby and I do, because I often don't eat what he does. Since I'm not working, cooking often falls to me (not all the time, but often). We have a deal, whoever cooks for the family, the other does the dishes. If I cook for myself, I do them when I'm done. This way, if cooking for both of us wears me out, he can give me a break by doing the dishes so I can do something else. :) Its really effective, and I do recommend it.

Its gotten ingrained to the point that if I fall over, I look for something to pick up while I'm on the floor. :lol:
 
Puck said:
Raymond 'corrected' me for leaving the brita on the counter instead of in the fridge (he likes his water COLD)...

Just a minor point, but Brita products don't filter out fluoride. I couldn't find specific mention of it on the US site, but the Australian site says:

Removes chlorine and impurities. Leaves in fluoride and essential minerals. The Australian Dental Association approves the use of BRITA water filters, in so far as they do not remove fluoride.
_http://www.brita.com.au/about_water/brita_benefits

Fluoride doesn't bond particularly well with the activated charcoal which makes up the active part of the Brita filter. It doesn't remove heavy metals, either, although Brita claim to remove mercury from tap water.

Distilled water filters are a bit noisy (the fan on top that goes full tilt for a few hours) and your housemates are likely to complain about that, but you can always look at a tabletop reverse osmosis filter as a future option. Of course, it will never be as convenient as a Brita jug (unless you fill the Brita jug with water from the reverse osmosis filter.)
 
Hi Nathan, I was pondering getting a nice RO system to put under the sink, but am waiting for the resigning of the lease before I make any major investments. As it stands I was subleasing from a previous roommate and my sublease expired March first. So technically I'm living there without a lease until it's resigned June 1st. She was supposed to move back and never did.

I've gotten much better at the external consideration bit. We had another incident in which Raymond decided to email me a lengthy bit about the things that erked him and I basically responded by saying I didn't appreciate the behind-my-back musings he did with the girls nor the passive-aggressive text messages he was sending. In short it was bullying. I could copy and paste the emails if anyone really wants to check it out: long story short he thought i was having too many 'guests' over too often, which I thought was ridiculous, but we compromised and now all is kosher.

He even apologized for the way he was acting and appreciated the compromises and little changes in behavior that I was making, in short external consideration works, it's just really hard to get over yourself without objective feedback from a dynamic network. <3 you guys and all your feedbacks, much appreciated.
 
Puck said:
Hi Nathan, I was pondering getting a nice RO system to put under the sink, but am waiting for the resigning of the lease before I make any major investments. As it stands I was subleasing from a previous roommate and my sublease expired March first. So technically I'm living there without a lease until it's resigned June 1st. She was supposed to move back and never did.

Puck,

Just a suggestion (and maybe you've already considered this), but why not drink/use distilled water to avoid fluoride instead of putting an expensive RO system in a place that you're only renting? In my area, one can buy jugs of distilled water for about $1/gal. So depending on how long you stay in your apartment, you might be better off just buying your water.

Puck said:
He even apologized for the way he was acting and appreciated the compromises and little changes in behavior that I was making, in short external consideration works, it's just really hard to get over yourself without objective feedback from a dynamic network. <3 you guys and all your feedbacks, much appreciated.

I'm glad you were able to work things out with your roommates. Those little changes through External Considering can make big differences. It frees up more of your energy to devote to those things that are truly important. :)
 
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