Yesterday I listened to this podcast that Rhiannon recommended, and saponins were mentioned. I admit I didn't know what they were. I see they were mentioned a couple of times in the forum, but found no detailed discussion about them:
For example here, here and here
Here is some information:
From wiki:
If you keep reading, you see they are being used in vaccines, promoted by some pharmaceuticals, etc. A bad sign right there.
This one promotes these anti-nutrients, but it's the only list of foods containing saponins that I found doing a quick search:
Unfortunately, I don't have much time right now to look more into it, but maybe some of you have some more interesting information about this? I found it interesting that they mention quinoa in particular. For a while earlier in the gluten-free phase, we used to have quinoa here. And some of us had a bad reaction to it (mainly stomach aches and a slow digestion), but didn't quite know why. This could well be an explanation. Even though it is gluten-free, it may do some harm and it's one way to get discouraged by the diet, if people get a bad reaction from it! And the same could apply for people who react badly to amaranth, garlic, etc.
Anyway, just FWIW, and for those who are still transitioning in the diet and are not fully ketogenic yet. You may want to watch out for these.
For example here, here and here
Here is some information:
From wiki:
Saponins are a class of chemical compounds found in particular abundance in various plant species. More specifically, they are amphipathic glycosides grouped phenomenologically by the soap-like foaming they produce when shaken in aqueous solutions, and structurally by having one or more hydrophilic glycoside moieties combined with a lipophilic triterpene derivative.
If you keep reading, you see they are being used in vaccines, promoted by some pharmaceuticals, etc. A bad sign right there.
Dissecting Anti-Nutrients: A Closer Look At Saponins
Dissecting Anti-Nutrients: A Closer Look At Saponins
Peter Curcio
Within the Paleo framework, saponins, along with lectins and prolamins like gliadin, are considered toxic anti-nutrients that are best removed from the diet. Robb Wolf, in The Paleo Solution, frankly recommends people avoid eating foods that contain saponins, explaining that they “…punch holes in the membranes of microvilli cells…” He goes on to say saponins are “so irritating to the immune system that they are used in vaccine research to help the body mount a powerful immune response.”
Microvilli are the absorptive cells of the small intestine, and form the basis for the larger issue of increased intestinal digestive system, mucosal lining of intestines, gluten, saponins permeability, or the weakening in the cellular barrier that prevents unwanted substances (such as bacteria and other toxins) from passing through the gut into the bloodstream. Intestinal permeability is usually a tightly-controlled affair. In my gluten article I discussed how increased intestinal permeability, or “leaky gut,” can contribute to more serious conditions like depression, diabetes, and heart disease.
Varieties of Saponins
Saponins are found in a variety of plant sources, from legumes (including beans, peanuts, and soy), to nightshade vegetables like potatoes and tomatoes, seeds such as quinoa and the herb ginseng, as well as other non-food substances such as Quillaja saponaria, a type of tree bark used predominantly in vaccine research.
Along with Quillaja saponaria, another commercial source of saponins is Yuccaschidigera. Yucca and quillaja extracts are used in beverages such as soda to produce a foamy head. In addition, based on their surfactant properties, the Linus Pauling Instititute explains they “are used industrially in mining and ore separation, in preparation of emulsions for photographic films, and extensively in cosmetics, such as lipstick and shampoo.”
Saponin Chemistry
Saponins are soap-like substances characterized by their ability to create foam in water. This ability to behave like a detergent is due to their chemical structure, with one end binding easily to water and the other to cholesterol and fat. Similar to how an emulsifier acts when you shake up a bottle of salad dressing, this ability to bridge between two polar opposite types of molecules (e.g. oil and water), enables saponins to interact very easily with the molecules on the surfaces of cell membranes.
Saponins’ amphiphilic structure allows them to latch on to cholesterol molecules attached to the surface of intestinal cells. Once they attach, they stimulate a reaction that creates pores in the cell surface, producing increased permeability (i.e. leaky gut) and allowing substances to enter the bloodstream.
Sorting the Good From the Bad
Much of the vaccine research that utilized saponins derived them from Quillaja saponaria tree bark to create adjuvants (substances used to enhance an immune response). When injected in vitro or into the bloodstream in animal models, these saponins have been shown to cause the destruction of red blood cells.
However, other saponins, such as those found in soy, do not seem to exert the same harmful effects. This certainly makes sense when you consider we don’t inject soybeans into our veins, but rather allow them to take the normal route through our digestive system. In fact, one research review concluded (in regards to soy saponins versus non-food saponins) that “most of the available data indicate that these compounds are very poorly absorbed following oral administration to animals and humans.”
At the same time, not all saponins are created equal. Some have exhibited anti-inflammatory and immune-stimulating characteristics as well as antimicrobial properties towards some fungi and bacteria. Other varieties have demonstrated cholesterol-lowering effects. Saponins bind to cholesterol and bile acids in the digestive tract and assist in their elimination from the body. In the end, despite their reputation as evil “gut-punchers,” saponins as a whole are quite a bit more complex.
Closing Thoughts
Without a doubt, more research is needed to nail down the function of saponins, especially in regards to their function within the human digestive tract. As one early review put it, “The results indicate that some saponins readily increase the permeability of the small intestinal mucosal cells, thereby inhibiting active nutrient transport, and facilitating the uptake of materials to which the gut would normally be impermeable.”
What Can You Do?
Avoiding foods such as legumes, peanuts, soy, potatoes, and even quinoa will help greatly reduce the amount of saponins in your diet. However, due to their inclusion in many non-food products, it may be difficult to completely eliminate them. In addition, although research remains inconclusive regarding the negative effects of saponins on humans, it may be sensible to err on the safe side and limit your exposure.
References:
1. Podolak, Irma, Galanty, Agnieszka, and Sobolewska, Danuta. Saponins as cytotoxic agents: a review. Phytochemistry Reviews. 2010 Sep; (9)2: 425-474.
2. Francis G, Kerem Z, Makkar HPS, and Becker K. The biological action of saponins in animal systems: a review. British Journal of Nutrition. 2002;88(6):587–605.
3. Johnson IT, Gee JM, Price K, Curl C, and Fenwick GR. Influence of saponins on gut permeability and active nutrient transport in vitro. J Nutr. 1986 Nov;116(11):2270-7.
http://paleoparents.com/featured/how-do-grains-legumes-and-dairy-cause-a-leaky-gut-part-2-saponins-and-protease-inhibitors/ said:Legumes and pseudo-grains (like quinoa and amaranth) are high in saponins. All plants contain saponins, often concentrated in the seed of the plant. These compounds have detergent-like properties and are designed to protect the plants from consumption by microbes and insects by dissolving the cell membranes of these potential predators. Saponins consist of a fat-soluble core (having either a steroid or triterpenoid structure) with one or more side chains of water-soluble carbohydrates (this combination of both a water-soluble and a fat-soluble component is what makes saponin act like a detergent, i.e., something that can make oil and water mix). This detergent-like structure gives saponins the ability to interact with the cholesterol molecules imbedded in the surface membrane of every cell in the body and rearrange those cholesterol molecules to form a stable, pore-like complex. Basically, dietary saponins create holes in the surface membrane of the cells which line the gut (enterocytes), allowing a variety of substances found in the gut to enter the cell.
There are many different types of saponins, and some bind more easily and more tightly to the cholesterol molecules in the cell membrane than others. As such, different saponins can create larger or smaller pores, which may be more or less stable. The larger, more stable and/or more numerous the pores, the more difficult it is for the enterocyte to recover. Small doses of some dietary saponins (like those found in fruits and vegetables) might be important for aiding absorption of some minerals. However, legumes, and pseudo-grains contain very high doses of saponins (and, in general, contain types of saponins that interact more strongly with cholesterol). Dietary saponins from these foods are known to increase the permeability of the gut (i.e., cause a leaky gut), likely by killing enterocytes (cells, in general, do not survive large, irreversible changes in membrane permeability). Interestingly, even when a sub-lethal amount of saponin pores form in the enterocyte surface membrane, the cell loses its ability to actively transport nutrients, especially carbohydrates. While slowing down sugar transport from the gut to the bloodstream seems like a great thing on the surface (why beans are so often recommended as a carbohydrate source for diabetics!), the irreversible increase in gut permeability is just not worth it!
When large amounts of dietary saponins are consumed (especially in the presence of an already leaky gut), saponins can leak into the bloodstream. When saponins enter the bloodstream in sufficient concentrations, they cause hemolysis (destruction of the cell membrane of red blood cells). Saponins also have adjuvant-like activity, which means that they are able to affect the immune system leading to pro-inflammatory cytokine production (again those chemical messengers that tell white blood cells to attack) and can further contribute to inflammation in the body.
This one promotes these anti-nutrients, but it's the only list of foods containing saponins that I found doing a quick search:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/333022-foods-containing-saponins/ said:Foods Containing Saponins
By Jessica Bruso
Eating foods that contain saponins, a group of chemicals found mainly in plants, may help you lower your risk for high cholesterol and cancer and help you control your blood sugar, according to an article published in the "Journal of Medicinal Food" in 2004. Many plant-based foods contain at least small amounts of these plant chemicals, but beans are among the best sources.
[But we know that cholesterol is a myth anyway! The point is to reduce inflammation...]
Beans and Legumes
Soybeans, chickpeas, kidney beans, navy beans and haricot beans are among the richest sources of saponins. While cooking these foods won't reduce the saponin content, fermenting them does, so eating fermented soy products like tempeh won't increase your saponin intake as much as eating other types of soy products.
Other Vegetables
Garlic contains saponins that act as antioxidants, according to an article published in the "British Journal of Nutrition" in April 2011. The saponins found in asparagus may also have health benefits, potentially causing the death of cancer cells, according to a study published in "Current Oncology" in July 2012. Alfalfa sprouts, peas and yucca also contain saponins.
Grains and Pseudo-Grains
While grains don't typically contain high amounts of saponins, exceptions exist, such as oats, which have two different types of saponins. Two pseudo-grains -- quinoa and amaranth -- also contain these chemicals. In the case of quinoa, however, most of these saponins are removed during processing or washed off before cooking because otherwise the quinoa will taste bitter.
Red Wine
Red wine can provide a significant amount of saponins, with the amount varying based on the type of wine, according to research conducted at the University of California, Davis, and presented at the 2003 meeting of the American Chemical Society. The saponins come from the coatings on the skins of the grapes used to make the wine. Red wines can have up to 10 times the saponins of white wines, with red Zinfandel wine having the highest amount of these chemicals. The alcohol content of the wines also appears to help increase your body's ability to absorb the saponins.
Marine Invertebrates
Plants aren't the only sources of saponins. Some marine invertebrates also contain these substances. One such animal is the sea cucumber, which has varying amounts of saponin depending on the type, according to a study published in "Marine Drugs" in January 2010. These creatures can be eaten raw, such as in sushi, or cooked in various ways.
Unfortunately, I don't have much time right now to look more into it, but maybe some of you have some more interesting information about this? I found it interesting that they mention quinoa in particular. For a while earlier in the gluten-free phase, we used to have quinoa here. And some of us had a bad reaction to it (mainly stomach aches and a slow digestion), but didn't quite know why. This could well be an explanation. Even though it is gluten-free, it may do some harm and it's one way to get discouraged by the diet, if people get a bad reaction from it! And the same could apply for people who react badly to amaranth, garlic, etc.
Anyway, just FWIW, and for those who are still transitioning in the diet and are not fully ketogenic yet. You may want to watch out for these.