Self Defense

[Adobe]

I returned from china a year ago wanting to prepare with friends and family for probable distressing changes to come in the US. I’m more of a Gandhi kinda guy, and my friends family or more Rambo kind of guys which leads to conversations/disagreements on how to handle violence from nuttso public gone wild, or authorities.

My final summation is if your intention comes from fear or anger, either at that person or built up over time because of the situation that your making a mistake. If you have no anger/fear, but are trying to just stop someone from molesting/controlling you than that's ok (even if that individual get hurt) Be careful your last hours aren’t permeated with contacting bad juju or karma.

The Gandhi and the Jesus men put away the sword, even up to facing an unprotected death. I can understand this mind set, especially if you believed your not dealing with the source, but rather the brainwashed heard. I found a reference in the RA material that spoke of the right of self preservation, and also spoke of a “sometimes” particular situation where one agrees (before this life) to die without defense for some higher cause.

So….I’m thinking keep out of the negative vibes like anger/revenge etc, stay with “your path” and do what you do in the situation of that moment. Having said this, I am still having tentative feelings towards this subject. A public search of self defense just finds a lot of karate books. Esoteric also difficult. I would like to solicit anyone on this forum who has some constructive thoughts or suggestions for reading.

Thanks,

 

[Mountain Crown]

Hi Adobe,

It seems to me the best preparation for a scenario involving fear and/or anger would be to have the correct assessment of the situation at hand and to understand the automatic responses to avoid. Fear and anger can be either legitimate or not; if true, it could be a grave mistake not to heed them, if false, a grave mistake to act from them.

The most appropriate action in all situations would be from an informed conscience, requiring diligent effort at all times to know one’s machine as well as to improve the ability to objectively discern reality – not easy, but necessary.

 

[obyvatel]

Self defense is not only physical but also has emotional and intellectual aspects just has violence can be physical, emotional and intellectual in nature. We can take the holistic self as one composed of the physical body as well as the principles and ideals being expressed through the organism. The holistic self need not be an individual but could well be a group (like here). This forum does a lot of work which can be related to mounting an intellectual and emotional self defense against the violence being perpetrated by the pathological system in which we find ourselves.
The examples of Jesus and Gandhi could well illustrate the principle of self defense not in terms of the physical body but in terms of preservation of higher ideals. BTW, Gandhi also said that if the choice is between violence and cowardice, violence may be the preferred course of action. If a course of action (determined by the law of 3) is forsaken only on the grounds of "contacting bad juju or karma" - that would be akin to cowardice imo.
I think all around us, we see self defense as a natural way of life. The physical body has autonomous mechanisms to fight against invading pathogens. In esoteric terms, Illion in Darkness Over Tibet defines matter as the battleground in which the ascending and descending spiritual currents fight each other. Struggle on different planes seems to be the way of life and so self defense becomes an undeniable natural component of existence - osit.

 

[sankara]

Adobe,

You ask for a reading on that aspect, but which also implies what has been said by MC and Obyvatel? So my best advice is "The Way of Energy: Mastering the Chinese Art of Internal Strength with Chi Kung Exercise " by Lam Kam Chuen.

I have been practicing this Yi Chuan thing for ten years (among other things) and it has been so efficient in my life on all aspects. Emotional, physical, energetic...

Now I am thinking trying the beatha program, but not out of some efficient tool...And this one is a real path to knowledge (filled with traps of course, there is no free lunch...)

"Action resolves contradiction" Wang Xiang Zhai

Respect

 

[sankara]

Wang Xian Zhai, the founder of Yi chuan (often translate rather unadequatly Mind Boxing or intention boxing)or Da Chen Chuan (great accomplishment boxing) has done a unique inquiry in the Chinese martial internal art and health technics( genericaly called qi gong). He had noticed that the Chinese tradition was englued in mystic lores and decided thru his researches, to establish a scientific approach of this traditional knowledge coming back from shamanic times. After having dedicated some time of his life to this quest, he demonstrated his mastering by defying all boxers (even an englishman answered the challenge) and...winning all confrontations.

His work goes far further than basic martial art and the path of Zhang Zhuang (tree standing) goes far behond fighting.

Lam Kam Chuen, like others, teaches mainly for the many health benefits it does provide and which has been attested worldwide in the martial arts community, but also among official health professionals.

I don't train for fighting and I rather use the movement ability I acquired, to dance.
After a couple of weeks (sometimes before), the effects of standing still are obvious to anybody and one is more able to control the emotions as well.

Yi chuan serious teachers have outlined the difficulty of transmission of objective knowledges which go further than words.

Health and fighting ability are not the ultimate research goals for some. Yi chuan has a 'spiritual horizon' also... Nobody teaches it or rewards it at that level.
It is just diligent practice and the right intention which can lead that way... It is a long way standing still.

Zhang Zhuang may be an important tool to learn to observe oneself, it is the basic of all the Chinese heritage, from animism to Tao via Buddhism. It non dogmatic, it is now used in hospitals in China. It is said that Socrate used to stand still hours a day, same with the Malian Sufi master Tierno Bokar and others... Were they practicing Zhang Zhuang? :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Xiangzhai
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhan_zhuang

 

[sankara]

Sorry,
I introduced you to Tierno Bokar in a basic way that is not respectful of that Elder. So you might check Wikipedia to have a slightly deeper knowledge of him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tierno_Bokar

I don't know if thru the provided links you will find this little story, so I just put it on:

Once Tierno was giving esoteric teachings to a couple of disciples in Bandiagara. Suddenly, a baby bird fall down a tree, right in front of the Elder. Nobody reacted and the crew was just waiting for the teaching to keep on. Then stood up Tierno. Silently he went on to collect the baby bird and put it on his scarf (you know, Muslim men usually wear scarf). Because he was used to wave cloths he had a needle and the basic kit for sewing, so he started fixing the nest from where the baby bird had fallen from. He then put the little animal back in the repared nest and put the nest back in the tree. Silence was going on while the Elder had sat down.
Student/disciples asked him to keep on teaching.

Tierno Bokard basically said something like "You have witnessed the baby of a mother in need, and nethertheless you have remained unmoved. As long as you can't feel ampathy, my teachings will be worthless.

And for that day, he stop teaching.

I guess the crowd has pondered

PS: If any among you want the exact traduction of Tierno's word as reported by Amadou Ampaté Ba, It would be a pleasure to translate it not from my memory but from textual sources.
respect

 

[Adobe]

MC, Obyvatel, and Sankara:

Thank you very much, you have pried up the stone I need to examine. I'll set about the work of turning it over...thanks again!

A

 

[Buddy]

My final summation is if your intention comes from fear or anger, either at that person or built up over time because of the situation that your making a mistake. If you have no anger/fear, but are trying to just stop someone from molesting/controlling you than that's ok (even if that individual get hurt) Be careful your last hours aren’t permeated with contacting bad juju or karma.

Hi Adobe. I've had to struggle with separating my purposes from my intentions, and from what I've learned so far, my position is that if my deepest intent is to preserve my life so that I can continue to learn my lessons in this life, then a behavior classified as 'self-defense' can be appropriate and may even be mandatory depending on circumstances.

Based on your contrasting, it sounds to me that you can see the difference quite well.

A public search of self defense just finds a lot of karate books. Esoteric also difficult. I would like to solicit anyone on this forum who has some constructive thoughts or suggestions for reading.

Thanks,

Different methods might work better for different people. Body type, temperment, preferences, aesthetic recognition in an art, attraction, all may play a part in what's best for you and how far you will develop the skill(s). Give some thought to those as well as your research on various martial arts (or whatever) and perhaps a path will show itself to you.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Mountain Crown]

[quote author=Adobe]A public search of self defense just finds a lot of karate books. Esoteric also difficult. I would like to solicit anyone on this forum who has some constructive thoughts or suggestions for reading.

Thanks,[/quote]

When deciding on a martial art, consider the ones that teach how to use the force of the attacker to either neutrality or a quick finish, like tai chi, aikido, and jiu jitsu. This is done by learning to read the intent of another as well as developing your inner balance.

 

[kenlee]

Hi Adobe. Lot’s of really good advice given on this thread! You might also want to check out a book called Samurai Zen by Scott Shaw. I think it really gets to the essence of practical Zen and how the state of mind, knowledge and awareness are so important in self defense. In the book he talks about a state of mind called Muga which, as I understand it, is an inner state of ‘stillness’ where one’s inner intuitive and instinctive awareness are optimized and focused to better evaluate the potentially dangerous situations around us while minimizing the possibility of projecting our own subjective inner psychological states out into world which could cloud our own perceptions about what is really going on in the environment around us.

 

[AdamJM]

Hi peeps! just finished reading an interview with Wang Ziangzhai :

http://taijijourney.blogspot.com/2005/07/interview-with-mr-wang-xiangzhai.html

i found it really informative and i figured you would as well, he goes into detail on the specific aspects of combat science and how real intuitive interaction is overlooked in favor of standardized routines and postures, and how these eventually lead to negative results.

cheers, Ad.

 

[Lauranimal]

I cannot help thinking of this post from j0da on a thread called, "Are you still Free?":

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=1077.msg4969#msg4969

Well, dissent, rage and anger are much better than apathy and submission, BUT...there are also higher states of being. There is some Zen story I'd like to bring here now:

...
During a war a group of warriors broke into the Zen monastery. Their leader went straight to the inner sanctuary to make the Zen master bow before him. But contrary to his expectation, the master was sitting calmly like there was nothing spectacular happening, like he didn't notice fighter's furious entry. The leader stepped forward with his sword pointing master's head and screamed with anger:

-Monk! Don't you know that I can cut your head off without blinking an eye !?
-You fool! Don't you know I can have my head cut off without blinking an eye !?!

Recognizing great spiritual strength and courage in the master's stance warrior fell down to his knees and bowed. He left immediately afterward, taking his men out of the monastery with him...."

...

I had kind of an 'aha' moment when I read this.

 

[Franco]

I cannot help thinking of this post from j0da on a thread called, "Are you still Free?":

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=1077.msg4969#msg4969

Well, dissent, rage and anger are much better than apathy and submission, BUT...there are also higher states of being. There is some Zen story I'd like to bring here now:

...
During a war a group of warriors broke into the Zen monastery. Their leader went straight to the inner sanctuary to make the Zen master bow before him. But contrary to his expectation, the master was sitting calmly like there was nothing spectacular happening, like he didn't notice fighter's furious entry. The leader stepped forward with his sword pointing master's head and screamed with anger:

-Monk! Don't you know that I can cut your head off without blinking an eye !?
-You fool! Don't you know I can have my head cut off without blinking an eye !?!

Recognizing great spiritual strength and courage in the master's stance warrior fell down to his knees and bowed. He left immediately afterward, taking his men out of the monastery with him...."

...

I had kind of an 'aha' moment when I read this.

Though in the real world he probably wouldn't have a head left :)

 

[Buddy]

Though in the real world he probably wouldn't have a head left :)

If, by the 'real world', you mean 'today's world' I agree. Interestingly enough, there were places and past time periods (mostly during the Japanese Shogunates, I believe) when the family, social and cultural programming included man-made concepts of 'honor', 'bushido' and other stuff that would have practically guaranteed that story to actually be one that is plausible.

Of course, it just means that mechanical man reacts according to his programming in every age and time period anyway, just as he does today. The warrior would effectively have had little choice but to behave as he did.

What I find interesting to consider here is the possibility that it wouldn't have mattered to the Zen master either way. The warrior would have responded appropriately to what he 'recognized' in the Zen master and the Zen master would have known what choice would have been mandated in the warrior's 'heart'. If the warrior did not act in a predictable manner, the Zen master would likely have already have attained the realizations in Gurdjieff's Last Hour of Life anyway (due to his 'master' status) and so could face the unknown with some measure of equanimity.

This is just 2 cents from me, but it was interesting to think about. :)

 

[AdamJM]

The zen masters response reminds me of something i read a while back in the book how to win friends and influence people by dale carnagie. By avoiding an argument, and showing respect for the warriors opinion, that yes 'i can have my head chopped off' the zen master effectively disarmed his opponent without having to lift a finger. This interaction though, is entirely dependent on the situation, i think the zen master is lucky the warrior didn't have his head phones in, lol!

Ad