Smoke Points anyone?

[dantem]

I had in mind that butter' smoke point was higher than olive oil's and thus better for cooking, but then a friend argued that he was told differently ... so I went checking and so far I cannot find an identical 'smoke point table' around!

Some examples:

wiki
Butter 250–300°F 121–149°C
Lard 370°F 188°C
Olive oil Extra virgin 375°F 191°C
Olive oil Extra light 468°F 242°C

cookingforengineers

Butter 350°F 177°C
Lard 370°F 182°C
Virgin olive oil 420°F 216°C

drinc.ucdavis.edu

Butter 300°F/150°C
Lard 375°F/190°C
Olive oil 375°F/190°C
Frying fat (?) 465°F/240°C

Then in the Italian version of Wiki I'm reading that is "better to not give much credit at what newspapers and magazines say about the Smoking Point because they could be the result of certain marketing strategies!"

In fact:

As just one example, on Albanesi.it, a site of nutrition [1] lard has a smoke point between 180 and 210 Celsius, and the peanut oil 230 C, so this is convenient to use, while according to e-learning site of the University of Naples Federico II [2] groundnut oil has 180 C, extra virgin olive oil 210 C, butter 260 C and lard over 260 C. A circular from the Ministry of Health, the No. 1 11 January 1991 [3], says that better suited frying oils are olive oil and peanut oil.

Now there are many varieties of olive oil that I know, and maybe lard is different from frying fat, and butter may be whole or refined or ghee, but in the end who really knows about all those smoke points?

And tell me how 'butter' can possibly have a range from 121 C to 260 C

 

[mcb]

...Now there are many varieties of olive oil that I know, and maybe lard is different from frying fat, and butter may be whole or refined or ghee, but in the end who really knows about all those smoke points?...

It's not difficult to observe when your cooking oil starts to smoke, and to stay well clear of that heat range. I solved the problem with olive oil and butter by not cooking in them any more. I do use ghee, and I notice that it turns clear before it begins to smoke, so I try to avoid it turning clear.

 

[Weller]

One reason there are so many different values for smoke points (for olive oil or butter for example) is that the amount of impurities in the oil will lower the smoke point. Clarified butter, or ghee, will have a higher smoke point than regular butter.

Extra virgin olive oil is not really suitable for cooking, really just medium low heat. Non-extra-virgin olive oils sometimes have corn or soy oil mixed in (which is why it can have a yellowish color), which will raise the smoke point.

Also, the more saturated the fat, the more stable (i.e. less prone to rancidity) the oil and the higher the smoke point. Beef tallow, for example, is highly saturated, which is why McDonald's used it for their french fries before hydrogenated vegetable oils came along; wow did those taste better; just like Oreos when they were made with lard...but I digress.

I like to use refined almond oil for cooking - it can handle really high temps without smoking (216 C/430 F). Avocado (271C/520F) is also good, as is refined coconut oil.

If you do saute with olive oil, you can mix in a little butter or lard, this will raise the smoke point slightly.

Unrefined oils generally shouldn't be used for cooking though, it's a gamble since there is so much variation in impurities. I wonder if high heat cooking is probably best avoided for optimal health, anyhow.

Here's a thorough list, good at least for relative values:
_http://www.cookingforengineers.com/article/50/Smoke-Points-of-Various-Fats

 

[Bobo08]

I agree that we should stay clear of the smoking point. However, even well before the smoking point, it is not a good idea to cook with olive oil due to its high proportion of unsaturated fat. From Wikipedia:

* 100 g olive oil contains: 14 g saturated fat, 73 g monounsaturated fat, 11 g polyunsaturated fat
* 100 g butter contains: 51 g saturated fat, 21 g monounsaturated fat, 3 g polyunsaturated fat.

You can tell which fat has a high saturated fat content (and therefore good for cooking) by checking whether it is solid at room temperature.

 

[dantem]

Yup, I've stopped using olive oil, one or more years ago. At odds is the propaganda machine that sometimes comes out with reversing the temperatures of the smoke point it seems. I was sure that some years ago someone on the radio started talking about how olive oil was better for frying than any other seed oil, because of the smoke point. But perhaps I was mistaking things, or the radio host was mistaken by too much confusing evidence as seen on magazines and cheap research for dummies, and again, perhaps it was just told that at lower temperatures olive oil is better for cooking than seed oil.

I was intrigued by this 'frying lard' with that high smoke point. In Italian it must be 'strutto', a sort of lard with no muscle mass at all in it. Besides, lard (lardo) may contain some muscle mass, and in fact it could be found a bit pinky in color here, or not completely white.

I'm trying to cook anything at the lowest temperature possible. Beacon doesn't get roasted this way and remains softer. After having reintroduced eggs in my morning breakfast, this low-cooking method seems the best to follow. Usually I mix the egg's white with lard and salt, or butter and salt to make it more yummy and digestible.

 

[Chu]

I was intrigued by this 'frying lard' with that high smoke point. In Italian it must be 'strutto', a sort of lard with no muscle mass at all in it. Besides, lard (lardo) may contain some muscle mass, and in fact it could be found a bit pinky in color here, or not completely white.

Any kind of lard should still be better than vegetable oils for cooking. You can also get VERY fatty porc chops from your butcher (ask him/her to remove only the skin), and then you cut strips of the extra fat. You render it, or keep it in the freezer, and voilà! You have fresh lard every time.

 

[freesurfer]

A circular from the Ministry of Health, the No. 1 11 January 1991 [3], says that better suited frying oils are olive oil and peanut oil.

We're just incredible (the italians) ... I do not cease any more laughing

 

[dantem]

Yeah, minced(?) lard can be found also ready for sale on the butcher's table :)

Me thinks that the only useful olive around would be an Oliva all'Ascolana, possibly a gluten-free one

 

[RedFox]

fwiw there are some more smoke points here http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,17952.msg216454.html#msg216454
Also there is a thread on olive oil, with a few reasons not to heat olive oil http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,11457.msg166214.html#msg166214

A Word About Heating

Different manufacturers list different smoke points for their olive oils, and some manufacturers list a temperature very close to smoke point as their maximum limit for safe heating of the oil. When these temperatures might be correct for avoiding large amounts of some harmful substances that can be created through heating of the oil, they are not correct limits for preserving the unique nutrients (especially polyphenols) found in high-quality, extra virgin olive oil. Oxidation of nourishing substances found in extra virgin olive oil, as well as acrylamide formation, can occur at cooking temperatures very closer to the 300F range. For these reasons, we recommend a much stricter heating standard involving very little or no heating when enjoying this delightful oil. Studies by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration have found no detectable amounts of acrylamide in olive oil when it is purchased in bottled form and not subsequently used for the frying or baking of foods.

 

[freesurfer]

Studies by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration have found no detectable amounts of acrylamide in olive oil when it is purchased in bottled form and not subsequently used for the frying or baking of foods.

..i must to stop definitively the pesto .. ok, not tomorrow , but ok :(

something more about basil, maybe? too

 

[dantem]

Thanks, RedFox!

fwiw there are some more smoke points here http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,17952.msg216454.html#msg216454
Also there is a thread on olive oil, with a few reasons not to heat olive oil http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,11457.msg166214.html#msg166214

I cannot find that list anymore...

Anyway, regarding ghee here. Never tried it before, and haven't got the time to make it myself, but just a couple of weeks ago I've found a tiny glass bottle of it at a local butcher's.

Problem is that it smells very cheesy, I mean, strong cheese flavor.. almost like eating a form of cheese here, and I've found it odd.

Now what is the real taste of Ghee? Just to spot the right one on the shelves here :/

 

[mkrnhr]

Maybe other Mediterraneans can comment if the idea is wispread or not, but I always heard that frying with olive oil was a big no no.

 

[dugdeep]

Smoke point is actually a big misdirection when determining whether or not an oil should be cooked with. Fats are normally found in the form of triglycerides - 3 fatty acid molecules attached to a glycerol molecule. When an oil starts to smoke what you're seeing is the break down of the triglyceride and the glycerol molecule burning (which is why the smoke has a slight blue tint to it. It's also why, once an oil starts to smoke, it becomes much more liquidy - all the fatty acids have been freed from the glycerol molecules making a more 'loose' configuration).

The problem is that the individual fatty acids in the triglycerides can be denatured (go rancid) long before the oil reaches smoke point. In other words, if an oil is mostly polyunsaturated (corn oil, soy oil, safflower, sunflower, "vegetable oil", cottonseed oil, etc.) it should never be heated, regardless of its smoke point.

As has been stated, polyunsaturated fats are the most delicate, so the more polyunsaturates an oil has, the worse it is for cooking. Monounsaturates are a little more sturdy, which is why olive oil is OK (not ideal) for light heating, although not the extra virgin stuff. Honestly though, since changing my diet to low carb, I haven't touched olive oil. I moved apartments in October and my bottle of olive oil still has the packing tape on it! You just don't need it when you're using animal fats.

The more saturated a fat is, the better it is for cooking. Lard, duck fat, tallow, ghee - these are the best, not because of smoke point, but because they are the sturdiest. The reason butter has a lower smoke point than olive oil is because of all the dairy proteins in it, not because of the oil itself. This is why clarifying it, making ghee, raises the smoke point so much - you're removing those dairy proteins, which burn easily, just leaving the fat.

This is how everyone was fooled into thinking grapeseed oil was the best oil to cook with - it has one of the highest smoke points. BUT it's almost entirely made up of easily-damaged polyunsaturated fats. It's a very delicate oil that should never be cooked (it's also way to high in omega-6, which needs to be minimized in the diet).

Hope that helps :)

 

[broken.english]

Now what is the real taste of Ghee? Just to spot the right one on the shelves here :/

My homemade on smells like butter with caramel.

I do no longer buy any industrially produced ghee. In Europe it can contain stigmasterin, which I don't desperately need.

Try and make your own, if you can find the time. It is very similar to boiling water. No real challenge.

 

[dantem]

Thanks dugdeep, broken.english!

That really made the point I was looking for, the missing link of all that smoke point stuff.

Try to find some time, making some ghee-refinery out of my kitchen ;)